God bless America's finest.

War is hell. People do bad things in war because war is a bad thing. This doesn't justify it though. Just proves how weak human beings are.

That being said, I agree with TheAbominatrix on the differentiation in coverage. This is a human rights violation just like the murder and desecreation of the contractors. No one has the right to do this, no matter who they are or what they represent. This is just a matter of somebody getting a bit too big for their britches, and if the people were fair, everybody running the POW camp would receive prison time. They all knew about it, making them all accessories.

I love and support this country and the troops that choose to defend it. However, I'm human far before I'm an American, and it's only to be expected that my support will lag when I find that my first line of defense is behaving in ways they're supposedly fighting against.

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Originally Posted by fire_of_avalon

I love and support this country and the troops that choose to defend it. However, I'm human far before I'm an American, and it's only to be expected that my support will lag when I find that my first line of defense is behaving in ways they're supposedly fighting against.

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Marvellous quote, I hope it catches on. My turn to give thanks, for saying something that needs to be said.

I agree fully. Well said, fire.

By no means should the US military be judged by these people's actions. How the military reacts to this, and deals with them, that is what it should be judged upon.

Sick bastards.

Sorry, not too many constructive thoughts in my head while I'm looking at these.

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Originally Posted by Doomgaze

By no means should the US military be judged by these people's actions. How the military reacts to this, and deals with them, that is what it should be judged upon.

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Not neccessarily. How did these people GET to be in the army in the first place? Why did people guarding a prison have no training on the correct treatment of prisoners? That this was allowed to happen in the first place shows a failure on the behalf on the US military.

Well, Skogs, those people may have got into the army, but maybe when they entered they were not expected to do things such as that.

Look it from another point, it is a war, people see horrible things, and you know that, and that creates violence, stress, that leads to atrocities, from both sides. This is in fact just another one, and nothing new, and again horrible, and I hope those people involved get a nice time in prision, yet however I suspect they will only fire them. I prefer not to believe the people who tortured know thought they would end up like that when they entered the military.

And still, well....I must say I am not surprised. Of course, I am an anti-american-commie-terrorist, but things such as this (And worse) happen in every war, and I know of some other stories you probably would not like to hear about (And THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE US!!! OMFG LMAO LOL RFLOMAO etc!!!).

And plus, there's still those Guantanamo prisioners. Of course, the violation of human rights is more extreme in this case, though.

I'd like to know if these prison guards had ever seen combat. Were these people that had snapped under pressure? Or were they sick individuals that got bored one day and decided to abuse their power? I'm truly curious about it.

$hit like this happen at every war, and at every conflict. Frankly, I'm surprised it doesn't happen more - American soldiers are out there, facing a very foreign and extremely hostile enemy, and that's very demanding and stressing. So, yeah... they made a guy stand a box, threatning that if he stepped down, he'd be electrecouted. That's not very nice... but how about, say, going into a village, and decapitating every single human there, and then hanging their headless bodies in the village square? What would you say to that? The fact remains, the USA has NEVER done such a thing (Not in recent history, anyway), while others have, and trying to find anacdotes like these... well, that's cute, but hardly a definitive image of what the American army is like.

These twisted freaks will be trialed and punished, and I'm pretty sure none of their friends will ever talk to them again.

And apparantly you have never read about the Mi Lai massacre, when US forces in Vietnam slaughted 300 (I believe that's the number) innocent women and children, spraying them with napalm. Decapitation is a far far more merciful act than having your body covered in napalm.

I don't see why everyone is so quick to write it off. Yes, it happens. And everytime it does, as a race we should be up in arms making sure in never happens again. And they did far more than make that man stand on a box. They forced these men to prefrom oral sex on eachother... actually, I'll just get the quotes that came with the pictures (which are too graphic to post here).

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This Iraqi prisoner had electrical wires wrapped around his
arms, his legs, and his testicles. He was told that if he
stepped off the box, that he would be electrocuted.

They were forced to get up on one of another in a
pyramid, with bags over their heads.

They're in that pyramid, bodies stacked up on one
another, and those two soldier guards are grinning like it's
some big fun game to play with the prisoners.

They were forced to do oral sex on each other at
gunpoint.

A big, wide smile on the woman's face as she does a
thumbs-up and points at the exposed genitals of the Iraq
man with his two other prisoners sitting on the ground with
bags over their heads.

Again, there are the smiles and the thumbs-up gesture
while the Iraqi man huddles on the bodies of his other
prisoners in that pyramid.

This is the body of an Iraqi man who died of beatings at
the hands of the American soldiers.

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This 'well America only does this every so often so it's okay' stuff is making me ill. It's not okay when anyone does it. Whether it's daily or once every blue moon.

i think we're missing the point here. It doesn't matter if you're pro-war, anti-war, quasi-America or pseudo-purple-sympathizer. This isn't about propaganda, it isn't about cultural assault, and it definitely isn't so superficial as a political bean-counting. No one should see in these pictures, first and foremost, American soldiers doing anything to Iraqi prisoners. i'm tired of hearing people package events like these into quaint little representations of "what happens when we march unfairly on Iraq" or "just another example of anti-war political maneuvering." Skogs posted the link to this article with a simple expression of disturbance and a request that we discuss the issue. What's the first response? A political defense. An immediately defensive stance on our troops relative to all the silly politics over which our nation has been enraptured for too long. i'm sick of people hearing things inherently in terms of political stance or as a function of left wing right wing pro oil sorta Bush anti evil sentiment. It isn't mere sentiment. It goes deeper than that. When i look at these pictures, i see an affront to human decency. It doesn't matter that it's Americans and Iraqis. If it were the other way around, i'd feel the same. It's just as offensive as the mutilated American bodies, and just as unfortunate. It isn't a matter of who killed whom or tally marks on our respective walls. Any time something like this happens, it should be a matter of immediate outrage. Not a question of the ethnicity of the last dead body that popped up on the television screen.

We're counting beans here. If all we can do in the face of simple inhuamnity is count beans, we're in trouble.

Wonderful, very well said indeed!

Take care all.

OK, checked Abominatrix's journal, and seriously, it is horrible to see they actually were smiling in those photographs.

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I don't see why everyone is so quick to write it off. Yes, it happens. And everytime it does, as a race we should be up in arms making sure in never happens again.

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Yeah, well, I guess I am like...so not surprised about it I can't share your feelings of surprise, I mean, just research on a little information on Guantanamo to see how things are there. And those photographs got to the outside, but I bet such abuses are still happening in some other place, the whole idea of war being clean and nice is quite ridiculous. The people who did that are just as atrocious as the ones they claim to fight against, the whole idea of Dubya's "This will be a monumental fight of good against evil" is absurd, cheap rethorical maniacheist crap to appeal to the minds of simple minded individuals that live in nice, shielded bubbles. Of course, most people today don't seem to believe in the whole maniacheist tale, I think Saint Agustin already did a very nice job throwing down all of Fortunato's arguments (By the way, I recommend to everyone the reading of that dialogue, amazing how a debate of the middle ages still has many relevance today.

Well, I hope at least this images will help people awaken from the whole politically correct war, nicely broadcasted through CNN as if it was some kind of reality show or action movie.

Big deal. That doesnt reflect 1000s of are troops it was only those handful of bad apples. An also lets just say that those terrorists and saddam loyalists would torture are soilders if they had the chance, or even kill them.An the general or what ever said he didnt, or wasnt told about the geneva convention, what a dummy.

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Originally Posted by noname

Big deal. That doesnt reflect 1000s of are troops it was only those handful of bad apples. An also lets just say that those terrorists and saddam loyalists would torture are soilders if they had the chance, or even kill them.An the general or what ever said he didnt, or wasnt told about the geneva convention, what a dummy.

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Yeah that's a beautiful reaction to the fact that human beings have been tortured and killed. 'Big deal'. It is a big deal. This isnt a political issue of soldiers. Just because Sddam did it more doesnt make it okay. It's a human rights issue. If our boys had been tortured like this by Iraqi soldiers, we wouldnt be saying 'this doesnt reflect the rest of the Iraqi troops' or 'It's okay, no big deal'.

Why cant people look past what country or what side or whatever these people are from? How can you look at the pictures and not care?

And that General is full of it if he didnt know the Geneva convention. However... how much common sense does it take to know that forcing the prisoners to commit oral sex on eachother at gunpoint is not okay? Do soldiers... does anyone have to be told that beating a man to death, most especially a man unable to defend himself, is not okay?