Blinded by new-school

I just want to say that, personally, visuals never put me off games, 2D or 3D. And condemning games cause they're 3D is just as vain as condemning game for being 3D. However, I have to object to what devilmaykickass's example of one being forced to substitute CD's and TV's for cassettes and older models of TV because that is a matter of efficiency. Cassettes are more awkard to use and so are some of the older models of TV. In regards to 2D/3D games, its all asthetics. The efficiency of the games is identical. And why IS 3D intrinsically better to 2D? No one has answered me apart from Takara who, like me, pointed out that there are actual storytelling advantages to 2D. As far as I'm concerned, 3D isn't better, it just detracts imagination a little while you're playing the games sometimes. As for the music, it was fine in the early days. There's nothing wrong with MIDI's, there's just slightly less scope for composition, although in the right place, MIDI's can work just as well as stuff composed by a group of live musicians.

As for the example of FFX to FFIV, I started playing the early FF's after years of playing the PS games and other PS RPG's when FF Anthology (4&5) and FF6 came out in the UK and I had no problem making the transition to 2D to 3D. None at all, I'm just not shallow enough to have preferences to either. I just acknowledge the advantages of 2D as appossed to 3D which can't play on your imagination in the same way.

I've never understood how gamers who are after eye candy can play Final Fantasy at all. My father, for example, is very much into racing games, the more realistic the better. I gave him Grand Turismo 3 for his birthday, and he loves it (and thus uses the PS2 a good amount of the time so I can't play as much). Much of his enjoyment of the game is the realism of the graphics. He can't stand RPGs, which he calls "Fighting Menus".

As much as I argue with him about it, he DOES have a very valid point. Basically, you ARE fighting a menu with some sort of flashy graphic added to it to augment the effect. The reason I play RPGs is for the storyline, because let's face it, storyline is what MAKES an RPG. I still maintain that Xenogears is the greatest game I've ever played because the storyline was so GOOD.

I admit that I've become somewhat spoiled with the newer graphics myself. I started playing Final Fantasy probably over ten years ago with Final Fantasy IV. I had never gotten to play but I did see FFI, I bought VI later, which was the first FF I owned (and still probably my favorite). After having played newer games though, I find myself slightly irritated with the old graphics. That doesn't mean, of course, that I don't hoarde all my old favorites in their playstation rerelease glory, it just means there's always a minor irritant while playing that wasn't there before.

Also, I would like to point out that ALL non-cinematic 3D graphics in FFVII are complete and utter crap. The reason that FFVII was so visually astounding was the background, which was all 2D but looked spectacular (I still feel that the FFVII backgrounds are among the best graphics I've ever seen).

While I haven't had a chance to play FFVIII or FFIX much, I won't turn my nose up at them because they're newer, and by the same token I won't attack an older game because of their lessened graphics. I will say that I don't really like FFI or FFII because neither of them really did anything to grasp my attention in any meaningful way, storywise. Of course part of it for FFII could be that the system is so abysmally horrible that I couldn't really get that far.

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I just want to say that, personally, visuals never put me off games, 2D or 3D.

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Same here...I don't want anyone to misunderstand...visuals don't stop me from playing a game...I still play it, but the old 8 bit games just arn't as easy on my eyes and ears, thats all...I don't rate the game or let that detemine wether I play it or not.

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However, I have to object to what devilmaykickass's example of one being forced to substitute CD's and TV's for cassettes and older models of TV because that is a matter of efficiency. Cassettes are more awkard to use and so are some of the older models of TV. In regards to 2D/3D games, its all asthetics. The efficiency of the games is identical.

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Thats a matter of opinion...by efficentcy I mean how much can be done now. For example, now I can hear actual voices singing and see peoples facial expressions, and see their mouths move as they speak, along with other things. With the older games, they just couldn't do that...I mean, maybe thats why alot of people who weren't into games back then weren't into them...you'll notice alot more people and many different kinds of people get into games now then they did back in the 16/8 bit days, because theres just so much more ways they can appeal to various people and likings with all they can do now.

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Originally Posted by devilmaykickass

Thats a matter of opinion...by efficentcy I mean how much can be done now. For example, now I can hear actual voices singing and see peoples facial expressions, and see their mouths move as they speak, along with other things. With the older games, they just couldn't do that...

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That didn't stop you enjoying them though, did it? There is absolutely no doubt that the most important thing in any title is gameplay. Graphics and sounds shouldn't affect the fun factor, they're only there to add flair to a game, not to be a major selling point. Without a good game to back it up, what's the point in all the flashy graphics and voice acting?

Let me put it this way. If FFVI had been released in the last few days, with today's technology, it would be absolutely awesome. Stunning visuals and sounds, a gripping story, all building upon the foundation of superb gameplay. However, release FFX-2 on the SNES, and it wouldn't do nearly so well. The all-important factor, the gameplay, is lacking somewhat. Certainly, the battle system was pretty good, but the structure and storyline were severely lacking. It would have sold well, yes, but nowhere near as well as FFVI did at the time.

Right now, graphics are important because they sell well. Many times I've seen players buy a title based on the screenshots on the back of the box, or a famous brand name. In these titles, the gameplay is a secondary concern. Thankfully, FF is not one of those games, and Square-Enix continue to produce games of a high quality.

Still, it's rather worrying that playing FFI, with its simple visuals and non-existent story, still evokes a greater sense of joy than FFX. Perhaps the opposite is true for some of the newer gamers, but if you ask me, they're missing the point.

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Originally Posted by Czanthor

That didn't stop you enjoying them though, did it? There is absolutely no doubt that the most important thing in any title is gameplay. Graphics and sounds shouldn't affect the fun factor, they're only there to add flair to a game, not to be a major selling point. Without a good game to back it up, what's the point in all the flashy graphics and voice acting?

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Yes, thats my point. Stunning graphics and sound arn't required for me to enjoy a game, and inferior graphics and sound don't mean I won't enjoy them.

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Originally Posted by Czanthor

Still, it's rather worrying that playing FFI, with its simple visuals and non-existent story, still evokes a greater sense of joy than FFX. Perhaps the opposite is true for some of the newer gamers, but if you ask me, they're missing the point.

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Why does there have to be a 'point'? Its all about enjoyment...if you like it, you like it...if you don't, you don't. If someone likes one and not the other, why condemd(sp?) them for it? Who says theres a 'point' or certain rules to videogames? People like what they like and theres not golden rule to that or anything. Its all about what you enjoy, and if you enjoy the newer games and not the older ones, so what? its your preference...go with whatever floats your boat. Besides this is entertainment we're talking about, and entertainment is all about wether you enjoy it or not.

Everyone has their own tastes. If people only like the new/old games because they are new/old then that's their deal, though they are missing out on some good stuff. I could see how if you are used to one style then going to the older/newer style would be difficult. Graphics are good but they hardly make the game. People who think they do are graphics fans, not Final Fantasy fans, and there is a special place in the world for them too.

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Originally Posted by devilmaykickass

Why does there have to be a 'point'? Its all about enjoyment...if you like it, you like it...if you don't, you don't. If someone likes one and not the other, why condemd(sp?) them for it? Who says theres a 'point' or certain rules to videogames? People like what they like and theres not golden rule to that or anything. Its all about what you enjoy, and if you enjoy the newer games and not the older ones, so what? its your preference...go with whatever floats your boat. Besides this is entertainment we're talking about, and entertainment is all about wether you enjoy it or not.

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That's true. What I was trying to say was that a lot of newer gamers refuse to play the older FFs due to the graphics. By doing so, they're stopping themselves from potentially enjoying the game (since that is, as you say, what entertainment is all about). If they gave it a chance and actually played it for a decent period of time, they might find themselves liking it in spite of the visuals. This seems to have been the case with numerous people here at EoFF, at least.

To sum it all up in a single hackneyed phrase, 'Don't knock it 'til you've tried it'. We should all try and stick to that, whatever our preferences.

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Originally Posted by Czanthor

That's true. What I was trying to say was that a lot of newer gamers refuse to play the older FFs due to the graphics. By doing so, they're stopping themselves from potentially enjoying the game (since that is, as you say, what entertainment is all about). If they gave it a chance and actually played it for a decent period of time, they might find themselves liking it in spite of the visuals. This seems to have been the case with numerous people here at EoFF, at least.

To sum it all up in a single hackneyed phrase, 'Don't knock it 'til you've tried it'. We should all try and stick to that, whatever our preferences.

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I agree 100%.

Good to see a lot of discussion here, and good points made by a lot of people, both for old-school and new-school.

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Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix

I agree with what most everyone has said, but I'd like to add that I've noticed that some of the 'old school' players are immeadiatly put off by the newer games. Many of them spend a lot of time complaining about every little aspect of the new games (I was guilty of this until I realized how dumb I was and stopped) rather than just playing and enjoying them for what they are (though I still like more of the other games than the newer).

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That is true, I was planning to make a similar thread about "Blinded by old-school" but I went off to a holiday trip so I haven't made it yet. But it's quite sad when some people see the opening FMV for FFX-2 and quit playing the game right after that, declaring it as pure blasphemy to the series, being a cheap slutty game with no redeeming qualities.

Big D: Great post there. Especially about visuals helping the story-telling. I must admit, some scenes in FF1 Origins make a bit more sense than the ones in NES. Especially the one when (SPOILER)Nerrick the Dwarf blows up the TNT and you'll see a canal (and a water passage) forming up.

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Originally Posted by Grover

I started FFVII , then my brother got FFVI, then I disliked it for its graphics, but then I started to like it, and moved backward to FFV
and I liked the 2D FF's from there, and Sephiroth1999AD. you are abviously spoiled, if there wasnt a FF1, there wouldnt be a FFX or X-2!

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The writing at the beginning of the thread was obviously sarcasm. Didn't you notice that? And for the record, I've played all the FFs from FF1 to FFX-2 so I know both the good and bad sides of older and newer FFs. Speaking of which...

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Originally Posted by Takara

Personally, I have played both old-school FFs and new-school FFs and I've learned to appreciate most of them (well, except VIII, but this thread is not the place to discuss about why I think it is the worst in the series). They all have their good points and their bad points.

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I agree with Takara, I like most old-school and new-school FFs, although both styles have a game which I don't like (FFII and FFX). And judging a book by its covers is a big mistake, IMHO. It's easy to miss out a lot of fun things by just staring at the box art, screenshots and trailers and not playing the game, or by playing the game for 15 minutes and then declaring it as garbage.

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Originally Posted by Behold the Void

Basically, you ARE fighting a menu with some sort of flashy graphic added to it to augment the effect. The reason I play RPGs is for the storyline, because let's face it, storyline is what MAKES an RPG.

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That depends on what you consider an RPG. Basically, console RPGs started out trying to emulate actual RPGs by using menus to approximate the combat systems. The reason for this was because in real RPGs you were limited only by the rules and by your imagination. For example, if something was in your way you could attempt to climb over it, and you would succeed or fail based on your stats and the roll of the die. Other RPGs do this better by having an overworld menu so you have more freedom in interacting with your world (Earthbound and Dragon Warrior come to mind). Final Fantasy does this usually by having points where you can press the action button to perform some sort of action. The one thing that REALLY differentiates console RPGs from real RPGs is that console RPGs are a lot more linear. You do things in the order that the developers wanted you to do them. Sometimes you have a little bit of freedom with that (mini games, subquests, etc.), but real RPGs allow you to go anywhere and do anything. Real RPGs also don't have a plot per se, they're more of a set of tasks you have to perform to complete a goal, much like in FFI.

As I've said before, 2D is only limited by what the artist can draw. If they need facial expressions, use either face pictures or anime sequences, seen in games like Lunar Legends and Shining Soul II on GBA.

As for 3D's "efficiently", it can only do one thing that 2D can't, and that's the rotating camera angle, which has very limited uses. That's one advantage, one! It's hardly worth all the fuss that developers give it. Sure, some things need a 3D model for areas, such as Breath of Fire III, where you could move the camera to see behind area's blocking your view, which was helpful in finding concealed items or NPC's. However, the large majority of games don't need this. In my opinion, FFX would have been better without the rotating camera. It wasn't like you could actually control it anyway, and it made navigation a real pain, I remember trying to climb Mt Gagazet and finding myself back where I started cause the camera made me think I was going upwards when I was going down.

As for voices, I don't recall any law saying you could only use them in 3D material, otherwise the anime wouldn't exist. A few GBA games are now implementing voices. It's a matter of memory space, not a games 2D or 3D engine. Another thing, why are voices such a big deal nowadays anyway. Sure, they have their uses, such as the laughing scene in FFX, and then afterwards when Tidus makes fun of Mika. These things couldn't be done with text, they wouldn't work. However most things will. As with 2D sprites benefiting storytelling via their use of the imagination, so can text. For example, when I play FF7, I can hear Sephiroth's voice fine in my head, it's just plain disturbing, but dramatic at the same time. I can't help but fell that when I finally see Advent Children, I'm going to be disappointed with Sephy's voice, cause he won't sound as dramatic as he does in my head.

As I've said before, what is meant to be so much better about 3D in the first place? Why is it meant to be so impressive to start with? Could someone please explain this to me, cause I really don't understand.

Because theres more people than just you in the world and not everyone likes stuff the way you like it mmmkay? Get over it please.

I like 3D. It adds life to everything. 2D is limited to a one side view per frame...like if I'm staring at a 2D character from behind, I just see their back, whereas if I'm staring at a 3D person from behind its more like real life and I see behind as well as their sides and such like my eyes would actually let me in real life. 3D has MANY advantages, not just rotating camera angles.

And besides, videogames have always got better and more realistic looking as time has gone by and technology has evolved...I mean, look at SNES compared to NES...theres improvements right there...is that a problem? WHATS THE POINT IN MAKING THEM LESS PIXELATED HUH? IT DOESN'T HAVE ANY ADVANTAGE OVER THE HIGHER PIXELATION AND THE LESS COLORS AND LESS LIFELIKE!?!?!? Why don't I hear any bitching about that?

Like I said, technology evolved and it will continue to evolve...get over it.

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Originally Posted by Seryn Kai

when I play FF7, I can hear Sephiroth's voice fine in my head, it's just plain disturbing, but dramatic at the same time.

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When I read his lines, he sounds like James from Pokemon in my head.

That's a side note to add humor to this all too serious thread though. Honestly I'd like to see another 2D FF but only if they went all out with the graphics. This means every last character would be fully animated with insane resolutions and color depth. Fluid animation, beautiful spell graphics, higher detail than seen in any other 2D game to date, and more sprites on screen than can be handled on any previous console. I want THIS to happen, or it wouldn't be worth making it in 2D. What I'm getting at, in case I was being too vague (as usual) is that changing technology has nothing to do with stylistic changes. 2D is stylistically different from 3D. There's things you can't do in 3D and there's things you can't do in 2D. However, this is not the only change the FF games have undergone. The series is a lot more cinematic and introspective than it used to be. This started in FFVI (although I could see how someone could feel that it started in FFIV) and it's only gotten them more and more popular. I personally feel that FFXI might be a little more old school than FFIX, but I suppose I should play it first before I make a statement like that.

I don't believe that the graphics are the problem.

I guess that the main problem is that every FF after 7 feels like it's the same. The changed very little besides the graphics since them, and even FF7 is not all that different from FF6 (gameplay, system, etc...)

Maybe that's why the only FF I like since 6 is Tactics. It was different from everything else.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I do not really care.

"When I read his lines, he sounds like James from Pokemon in my head."

which one DJzen? cause he has had two voice actors. the second one was crap, but the first one, yes, could definitly be sephiroth's voice. much better then sephiroth's voice in kingdom hearts *shudder* :eek: