Goodbye, Torrent Sites.

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Originally Posted by Dingo Jellybean

Doesn't matter if you make $1 or $1 million, 90% of all people wants to make as much money as they can. You'll never be satisfied. So for those of you here who say it's your right to "steal", you'd do the same thing as a producer to make as much money as possible. I guarantee it.

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If that's true, stealing is just as acceptable as exploiting anything and everything to get your movie profits up, not talking about shutting down torrent sites, but not paying the crew what they deserve, false advertising, not to mention making formulaic movies with no creativitiy what so ever. You just want to save your money by not paying for something not as important to you, and they just want to put asses in the seats. Wait, people who steal, even from good producers, jip them out of a $10 movie ticket and a $20 DVD, even times 52 movies a year that they might download, while asshole producers jip lots of people out of hundred of thousands of dollars. There's much worse things you can do to have as much money as they can than downloading movies and music for free.

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Originally Posted by MecaKane

If that's true, stealing is just as acceptable as exploiting anything and everything to get your movie profits up, not talking about shutting down torrent sites, but not paying the crew what they deserve, false advertising, not to mention making formulaic movies with no creativitiy what so ever. You just want to save your money by not paying for something not as important to you, and they just want to put asses in the seats. Wait, people who steal, even from good producers, jip them out of a $10 movie ticket and a $20 DVD, even times 52 movies a year that they might download, while asshole producers jip lots of people out of hundred of thousands of dollars. There's much worse things you can do to have as much money as they can than downloading movies and music for free.

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It's like I mentioned earlier...either here, on my webpage, or on my LJ. Just because people exploit others does not warrant you to do the same. Sure, maybe one person might download one movie illegally and do it often. To you that doesn't seem like much. But there's almost always millions of people doing this, and when you add that up, it's sure to hit anyone's wallet hard, no matter how rich they are.

You get the false impression that I think producers are the utmost good. No. I don't. Almost everyone in the entertainment business is overpaid IMO, but that doesn't warrant anyone to steal.

When you pay $15 for a DVD, part of the money goes to the producers, part to the retailer, part to the state, and part to the employee. So when you steal, you take a portion of an employee's paycheck. So much for not having a job. With this last paragraph, I dare anyone to truly justify stealing an employee's paycheck, whom, is just like you. They're probably paid $8/hr, but it's still money that comes from these DVDs and such. Your education, assuming you're still in public schools or receiving financial aid for college, is paid for in part by these DVD sales. That's why I defend gov't policy to raid these people who take away so much from employees and gov't.

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Originally Posted by Dingo Jellybean

But there's almost always millions of people doing this, and when you add that up, it's sure to hit anyone's wallet hard, no matter how rich they are.

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If it was really that many people downloading movies and music than internet DVD rental sites and iTunes wouldn't be so profitable. Honestly, what you said was just ridiculous, I still can't believe I see these words coming from you.

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Originally Posted by MecaKane

If it was really that many people downloading movies and music than internet DVD rental sites and iTunes wouldn't be so profitable. Honestly, what you said was just ridiculous, I still can't believe I see these words coming from you.

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Okay, if you're going to mock my statements, at least reply to everything I said. Do you even have a job? Do you know how it feels to have a paycheck? It's a wonderful feeling to not leech off your parents to buy what you want. Just because iTunes is popular and so is Netflix, doesn't mean you are entitled to free downloads.

It's been established that it is not stealing, so you can stop using that word :)

Replying to the rest of your post at your command.

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Originally Posted by Dingo Jellybean

When you pay $15 for a DVD, part of the money goes to the producers, part to the retailer, part to the state, and part to the employee. So when you steal, you take a portion of an employee's paycheck. So much for not having a job. With this last paragraph, I dare anyone to truly justify stealing an employee's paycheck, whom, is just like you. They're probably paid $8/hr, but it's still money that comes from these DVDs and such. Your education, assuming you're still in public schools or receiving financial aid for college, is paid for in part by these DVD sales. That's why I defend gov't policy to raid these people who take away so much from employees and gov't.

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That's total bull, when you buy an entire album from iTunes you're cheating every retail outlet out of a sale to you, when you buy ANYTHING on direct download from the internet you're cheating retailers, wholesalers even manufacturers out of business and money. That's life; those industries need to find a way to adapt. It's not my responsibility to keep people in their jobs if there's a better way to do things.
Even when I walk to school instead of taking the bus, I'm taking money from the bus company. Should I be forced onto the bus when I can just as easily walk, and get fresh air, while it takes a bit more time to get there? Should I be forced to go out and get a game, CD or movie, when I can download them without leaving my house, while it takes a lot(for movies and games) longer for me to get it?

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Originally Posted by MecaKane

Replying to the rest of your post at your command.

That's total bull, when you buy an entire album from iTunes you're cheating every retail outlet out of a sale to you, when you buy ANYTHING on direct download from the internet you're cheating retailers, wholesalers even manufacturers out of business and money. That's life; those industries need to find a way to adapt. It's not my responsibility to keep people in their jobs if there's a better way to do things.
Even when I walk to school instead of taking the bus, I'm taking money from the bus company. Should I be forced onto the bus when I can just as easily walk, and get fresh air, while it takes a bit more time to get there? Should I be forced to go out and get a game, CD or movie, when I can download them without leaving my house, while it takes a lot(for movies and games) longer for me to get it?

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There's employees at iTunes too you know. How am I cheating them out of money? They're COMPETITORS. If you paid for the download, then fine. But since you don't have a job or money...that doesn't entitle you to steal, yes it is stealing. No one said you should have to take the bus. If you take the bus but not pay the fare, then it's stealing. Sorry Kane, I don't think you debate very well. I much rather disagree with your opinions if they're solid...but it's almost not worth debating. When you get a job and not milk off your parents, you'll see where I'm coming from.

If any of your favorite gaming companies go out of business, they can have you to blame for it.

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Originally Posted by Doomgaze

It's been established that it is not stealing, so you can stop using that word

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It's amazing how spoiled the internet has made people. Imagine if a company made a movie that costs millions, but didn't sell a copy of it because everyone kept downloading it illegally. The producers don't make any money. That's essentially stealing money from them. How would you feel if you were that producer? You'd feel like you were robbed blind before you even began.

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Originally Posted by Dingo Jellybean

There's employees at iTunes too you know. How am I cheating them out of money? They're COMPETITORS.

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The few well trained employees at iTunes could be doing a lot of different things in the technology-related industry. What else can the thousands of employees of retail stores do if iTunes becomes so successful that no one buys CDs ever, what about all the people who press the CDs and manufacture the cases, since even PC games will be moving onto DVDs eventually, the entire "Compact Disk" industry will be dead, and they won't be turned over to DVD audio places, completely dead. But you know what? That's not going to happen; even if it does it's not the people who download from iTunes' fault. And well, people who have become so accustomed to downloading illegally will switch to iTunes if, and this is a big if, every illegal source is eliminated. So it wouldn't help those poor highschool dropouts any. Artists and music producers make enough money on radio royalties, concerts and merch to cover CD sales. They just need to learn to gauge how well a band is doing by how much their songs are being downloaded illegally, and kick the artists a bit more money to do bigger tours and stuff. As for movies; the MPAA are a bunch of spoiled bitches, the only thing downloading movies hurts is the DVD sales and rentals, if someone had no way to download a movie illegally, they wouldn't go to a theater to watch it, if they weren't going to anyway, they would wait to rent it on DVD. It is down right ignorant to think that ticket sales are impacted in any significant way by illegal downloads. People who enjoy going to theaters to watch movies still do, guys don't take girls on a date in front of their computer screen, and for when a movie does poorly in the boxoffice but makes more money on DVD sales, that's the production companies fault for pulling it out too soon and not waiting for word of mouth to pick up. And video games do a good enough job protecting their product from being pirate able with CD keys and systems not playing DVD-Rs and whatnot so they don't lose out on too much money.

And straight to DVD movies are always crap anyway. :D

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Originally Posted by MecaKane

The few well trained employees at iTunes could be doing a lot of different things in the technology-related industry. What else can the thousands of employees of retail stores do if iTunes becomes so successful that no one buys CDs ever, what about all the people who press the CDs and manufacture the cases, since even PC games will be moving onto DVDs eventually, the entire "Compact Disk" industry will be dead, and they won't be turned over to DVD audio places, completely dead. But you know what? That's not going to happen; even if it does it's not the people who download from iTunes' fault. And well, people who have become so accustomed to downloading illegally will switch to iTunes if, and this is a big if, every illegal source is eliminated. So it wouldn't help those poor highschool dropouts any. Artists and music producers make enough money on radio royalties, concerts and merch to cover CD sales. They just need to learn to gauge how well a band is doing by how much their songs are being downloaded illegally, and kick the artists a bit more money to do bigger tours and stuff. As for movies; the MPAA are a bunch of spoiled bitches, the only thing downloading movies hurts is the DVD sales and rentals, if someone had no way to download a movie illegally, they wouldn't go to a theater to watch it, if they weren't going to anyway, they would wait to rent it on DVD. It is down right ignorant to think that ticket sales are impacted in any significant way by illegal downloads. People who enjoy going to theaters to watch movies still do, guys don't take girls on a date in front of their computer screen, and for when a movie does poorly in the boxoffice but makes more money on DVD sales, that's the production companies fault for pulling it out too soon and not waiting for word of mouth to pick up. And video games do a good enough job protecting their product from being pirate able with CD keys and systems not playing DVD-Rs and whatnot so they don't lose out on too much money.

And straight to DVD movies are always crap anyway. :D

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It's easy for you to assume that iTunes employees have other technical abilities. Some of them do, some of them are PR guys designed to answer questions. Not all of them are high tech people. Those who drop out of high school are none of my concern, since it's pretty much their decision.

As for downloading movies illegally, of course it hurts the industry. My brother downloaded Spider-Man 2, Day After Tomorrow, and others and NEVER saw any of them in the movies because he has a 50 inch TV to watch them on. Yes, artists do make a heck of a lot of money from tours and radio, but doesn't entitle anyone to ever take music from them without paying for it. It's a cat and mouse game between piraters and the entertainment industry. As soon as one figures out how to protect their products, the other learns how to bypass it...then they learn how to block those bypasses, etc.

If people are so angry about artists and entertainers being overpaid, then just quit buying their products, don't steal from them by downloading illegal copies.

If no one's willing going to go see it in the theater or buy the DVD, it probablly wasn't a very good movie anyway. Whatever.

No matter how much you want it to be, copyright infringement and theft are two different concepts.

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Originally Posted by Doomgaze

If no one's willing going to go see it in the theater or buy the DVD, it probablly wasn't a very good movie anyway. Whatever.

No matter how much you want it to be, copyright infringement and theft are two different concepts.

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It's not that I want it to be, it is stealing. Bring me proof of the copyright law and state where it's not and I'll consider a change of mind. But many of you just treat the internet so differently because of the non-physical nature of it. You can go to GameFAQs, copyright infringement IS stealing.

I can offer proof if you want, but the technical wordiness of legal issues is often not fit for people not familiar reading legal jargon.

EDIT: Bah, the hell with it. I've offered some links that helps explain what I'm talking about. Although I'm the only one who thinks copyright infringement is stealing, it doesn't mean I'm wrong. So, without further adieu:

http://www.mpaa.org/anti-piracy/

Straight from the MPAA.

"Pirates steal creative works regardless of national origin, and the MPA fights to create a safe environment for both the works of MPA member companies, as well as other audiovisual entertainment."

This statement implies that pirating IS stealing. Thus, in subsequent paragraphs regarding electronic media, the MPAA refers to this as "pirating." You're probably wondering, "well, it's the MPAA...it's their interpretation, not law." It is law, it's part of the US copyright law. Not sure about the international copyright law. Though admittingly, the punishment for copyright infringement is much tougher than "stealing."

Here's another link:

http://piedmont-mutual.com/copyright.htm

It's mainly from a Real Estate company, but they make it very clear what is stealing. Essentially, taking images from someone and using it as your own is stealing.

Before I start, I'd like to point out that I pay for a lot of things just so I can have a legitimate copy. It makes me feel special. But I'll admit, there's other times when I just feel like breaking the law in the said manner...and it happens quite often.

More than 75% of the computer programs I own have been illegally downloaded and/or cracked. I'm a very happy person with all of the nifty programs I have. There's not a drop of guilt in my heart for having downloaded them. The same goes for half of the songs I have on my computer. Half of them are from actual CDs I own while the other half are made up of illegally downloaded .mp3s and legally downloaded live versions of songs that were never released on any CD. Of course, downloading things illegally is probably the most often commited crime, but I do other things of equal calibur.

Whenever I go to the movies, I usually see two or three for the price of one. How? I just walk into the next house over when I'm done watching the previous movie. That's just as wrong as downloading some movies, because I don't really pay to see them. But you know what? I don't care. I get a kick out of it. I'll exploit anything I can and then spit on the law. Go ahead, arrest me if you can.

(This is kind of going off on a tangent, but what about bootlegged DVDs...? People actually pay money for those, even though the money doesn't go to the right place. You can't really say the buyer is commiting any immoral act because they paid.)

I guess it all comes down to a question of integrity, but I know I'm going to continue my habits without thinking twice. If I'm going to live, I'm going to do it for myself. Copyright infringment...it doesn't matter what it really means. *I* know what *I* want, and there's not much of a difference when it comes to others. They also know what they want.

Long live piracy.

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Originally Posted by Seifer

(This is kind of going off on a tangent, but what about bootlegged DVDs...? People actually pay money for those, even though the money doesn't go to the right place. You can't really say the buyer is commiting any immoral act because they paid.)

I guess it all comes down to a question of integrity, but I know I'm going to continue my habits without thinking twice. If I'm going to live, I'm going to do it for myself. Copyright infringment...it doesn't matter what it really means. *I* know what *I* want, and there's not much of a difference when it comes to others. They also know what they want.

Long live piracy.

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The buyer is at fault if they knowingly buy the bootlegs, as well as the seller. But if they don't, the seller is at fault. Because it's far too expensive to prosecute every buyer, the gov't goes after dealers.

I always said integrity comes down to 2 things:

1) What you do when no one's looking.
2) What you do in the heat of the moment.

Meanwhile, back on the topic of supernova.org going down, the owner of supernova.org attended a radio interview. Conveniently torrented, the file can be found here (well, the torrent file).

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The stealing debate.

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Of course, that's all moot up here in Canada, where downloading music is not illegal.

There is a levy on all recordable media that goes to the CPCC (Canadian Private Copying Collective), which pays the money out to the artists. This means that essentially by buying a blank cd you pre-pay for the "right" to copy music for your own use - the Canadian Copyright Board has stated, and it is in the Copyright Act, that it doesn't matter what the source is and whether it must be a legal copy of the work, as long as you are copying it for your own use, it is legal. What's odd, is that if someone copies a cd for you, it is illegal, but if you borrow their cd and copy it yourself, it is not.


Of course, various groups are trying to change that...

(Note that this only applies to music, not movies or books or the like.)