Jenova

Squall here is absolutely correct. As a writer, I am well aware of every permutation of everything that goes into a story. I'm very used to being done, and then going back and putting in stuff in the first couple chapters that I didn't even think of until VERY late in the story. Adding incidental run-ins with events early on that turned out to be significant plot devices later on.

And if you're familiar with the Final Fantasy series as a whole, you'd know that applies very closely to this series (FF10 the first exception to the rule- due to the fact that it used voice acting, which limited the mutability of the plot later). I can't tell you what the original story was without these branches and additions and convolutions, but the final product was every bit as complex as what we're pointing out here.



Back on Jenova for a second: the planet was watching it's activities. Who knows how much intelligent thought such a being can use without being "concious" as humans think of it. That'd give Jenova VERY good reason to have her cells spread throughout the human race. So that when she's ready, she'll have "sleepers" in many tiers of human life.

If she can CONTROL through her cells, she could almost certainly PERCIEVE through them. Knowing at all times everything that is happening with all of her puppets. The perfect intelligence gathering system.

But, what we CAN easily assume or just is stated fact:

1. Jenova is alien to the world. It came from the skies.
2. It isn't compatible with the lifestream, since it (or sephi, at least) is capable of traveling it without being absorbed or lost to it. Or it has such an advanced mind that the lifestream isn't capable of affecting it at all.
3. It clearly appeared with VERY hostile intent- causing cataclysmic damage and killing all nearby sentient beings.
4. Though beat into submission and trapped, it was never truly defeated.
5. The planet chose not to use WEAPON on the already beaten Jenova- and almost any of them alone could have crushed Jenova, I can only imagine what they could do as a team. So, the planet felt Jenova carried a threat so great it wasn't worth unlocking the cell to kill it.
6. I'd guess this is because Jenova doesn't need a functional body to exist, so long as Jenova cells roam free, "she" has the power to reconstitute herself and become alive again- the Reunion.
7. Jenova, reconstituted in the end. And Sephiroth, her "avatar", intend to KILL the planet, consume it's energy, and acquire the power of a "god"- then presumably move on.
8. After leaving, you could assume that both of them would go to another (or two seperate) world(s) and repeat step 1. Such a pattern could have been occuring for aeons untold before stopped.

you have to remember that Sephiroth was pretty much human and Jenova never knew his limits so thats why he seemed so weak throughout the game you battle Jenova's body but when you see Sephiroth you get the idea of divinity how can I explain that? who cares aslong as i do it

Sephiroth was the most powerfull human at his time as shown in clouds flashback but we dont know if it was true as zack was there instead of cloud and the memory could have been screwed up, Jenova on the other hand has alot of likitations because there are people with power who can destroy her, Jenova was partly alive before the reunion if she wasnt than Sephiroth wouldnt be in the materia and the game would be screwed so what now?

we know that jenova is alien but how do we know that only the planet has lifestream maybe Jenova's home had something similar to it who knows but Jenova couldnt absorb the lifestream for some reason so when she woke up she used the strongest and most vulnrable creature on the planet which was at the time Sephiroth in his what do we say? mid life crisis? well while he was all confused his mind was open so Jenova came in took it over bye bye Sephiroth and FF7 storyline begins

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

True, we don't know that the Lifestream could have stopped Meteor on its own. But we do know that Holy couldn't do it on it's own. Arguing that Holy stopped Meteor but didn't keep the Planet from being destroyed (which is what the Lifestream did), is moronic. That's like saying "I caught a fly ball, but I didn't stop it from being a home run". Destroying the Planet is what Meteor is doing. If Holy can't prevent that, than Holy is not stopping Meteor!

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No, Holy could stop Meteor. Holy's sole use is not to protect the Planet - it's to counter Meteor. Holy destroyed Meteor; the Lifestream merely protected the Planet from the battle. If the Lifestream had not interfered, Holy would have still destroyed Meteor - just very probably would have destroyed the Planet as well.

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1) Zack's someone comfortable with himself. He's a ladies' man. He accepts himself for who he is.

2) Cloud doesn't accept himself for who he is. He tries to hide who he is. His mind even takes on the persona of another person to a great extent so that he can even live with himself. None of that's saying a lot for his mental solidarity.

3) Zack doesn't have a reaction JENOVA's Cells.

4) Cloud has a reaction to JENOVA's Cells.

5) It's said that only the strongest may enter SOLDIER. Cloud calls himself weak. How has he displayed weakness? With his mind.

6) Another member of SOLDIER shows only the faintest signs of being affected by JENOVA, suggesting that -- like Zack -- he's got something that seperates him from Cloud.

7) What seperated Zack from Cloud? Pretty obviously it's their acceptance of theirselves. Aerith calls Zack a ladies' man. After asking Cloud if he's ever been on a date, when he replies "No," she says "No, just a mixed-up kid...."

8) Cloud is forced to come to terms with who he is and accept who he is. He then admits the true nature of himself to those closest to him. He has come to terms with who he is, accepting it.

9) All times before his acceptance of himself when his mind was entered by an outside force, his will was either completely subverted (such as when he handed over the Black Materia) or heavily bent (when he nearly crushed Aerith beneath the Buster Sword).

10) After accepting who he was, when the same being who had been bending his will was present in his mind once more, he easily purged them and their influence from within himself.

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Wow.

1-4: you have no evidence to support that fact that Cloud was unsure of himself before getting the Jenova cell injections because of Jenova. A FAR more likely possibility is that he was unsure of himself because he was picked on and ostracized as a child.

5: this one's based PURELY on assumption. Cloud didn't have what it takes physically to enter SOLDIER - plain and simple.

6. What member of SOLDIER is this?

7. Wow - again, purely conjecture. Some people just don't accept the Jenova cell injections - the cells just don't mix. Sephiroth accepted them perfectly from birth - just because his cells happened to mix completely. Some of the clones had minor reactions, but nothing substantial. It's just game mechanics - the story needed Cloud to have a reaction, and it's justified by the genetics possibilities.

8. ...so? There's nothing after Cloud "accepted" who he was to justify whether or not he could still be controlled by the Jenova cells. I'd agree he'd be less able ot be manipulated, purely based on the psychology. Jenova easily took Sephiroth because he went insane and his mind was fried; it stands to reason that if the person has a more stable mind, they would be less likely to be fooled. This has nothing to do with basing the Jenova cell reactions on psychological conditions.

9-10: Jenova nor Sephiroth ever tried to take over Cloud again, because they didn't have to - they had the Black Materia, Sephiroth viewed Cloud was a weak, failure clone. They didn't need him anymore.

Every point you have can be countered by one that's not based purely on speculation and backed up by in-game facts.

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7. Jenova, reconstituted in the end. And Sephiroth, her "avatar", intend to KILL the planet, consume it's energy, and acquire the power of a "god"- then presumably move on.
8. After leaving, you could assume that both of them would go to another (or two seperate) world(s) and repeat step 1. Such a pattern could have been occuring for aeons untold before stopped.

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Everything you posted up to that point was 100% true. This is speculation based on your personal interpretation.
I, personally, believe that Sephiroth thought that the Planet could survive tapping into the Lifestream to such an extent. Remember, he thought he was Cetra. Sephiroth was manipulated into believing that he was doing the right thing. Jenova, on the other hand, knew and planned to destroy the Planet - for reasons unknown.

the Sephiroth you saw was either a clone made from Jenova or Jenova posing as Sephiroth, Sephiroth never knew what Jenova really was or who she really was but the Sephiroth you saw then and the Sephiroth you saw in clouds flashback were totally different

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

No, Holy could stop Meteor. Holy's sole use is not to protect the Planet - it's to counter Meteor. Holy destroyed Meteor; the Lifestream merely protected the Planet from the battle. If the Lifestream had not interfered, Holy would have still destroyed Meteor - just very probably would have destroyed the Planet as well.

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Except Holy sort of failed. It wasn't destroying Meteor:

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It's too late for Holy.
Meteor is approaching the Planet.
Holy is having the opposite effect.

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Holy was white-blue when it arrived. It dispersed the tornadoes that Meteor had spawned off as it collided with Meteor, yes, but after a few seconds, where it was touching Meteor then turned red (the same color as Meteor) parted open, allowing Meteor through, and then an even more violent storm kicked up (refer to the following images):

Holy Arrives.
Holy is altered by Meteor, certainly not indicative of Holy neutralizing it when it is becoming like Meteor and not the other way around.
Holy parts, allowing Meteor through.

I'm not seeing the "Holy is winning" aspect of that. We see Holy losing to Meteor. It becoming Meteor's color does not suggest victory on Holy's part. We're told it was too late for Holy. We're told it was having the opposite effect. After it became Meteor's color, a more powerful storm than the ones that had been broken apart kicked up and began tearing Midgar apart. The Lifestream then arrived and as it collided with Meteor and Holy, we -- interestingly enough -- see Holy's original color return at the center of the conflict where Meteor was:

Linkage. How can you determine that these things are unrelated?

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

1-4: you have no evidence to support that fact that Cloud was unsure of himself before getting the Jenova cell injections because of Jenova. A FAR more likely possibility is that he was unsure of himself because he was picked on and ostracized as a child.

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Again, what are you talking about? I haven't said a damned thing about JENOVA influencing anyone who didn't have its Cells within them. Yes, Cloud lacked self-confidence because he had been ostracized. The game makes that extremely obvious.

Where are you getting otherwise?

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

5: this one's based PURELY on assumption. Cloud didn't have what it takes physically to enter SOLDIER - plain and simple.

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Funny then that they only ever focus on his mental weakness and show that the difference between himself and Zack was their mentality and perception of theirselves. Going back again to Cloud's statement of "But weak people... like me, get lost in the whole thing," what else could he be referring to but his mind when he speaks of getting lost? He got all kinds of lost in his mind.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

6. What member of SOLDIER is this?

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This is where paying attention comes in handy, as I've already said which member of SOLDIER this is three times on the first Page of this Thread: The Junon Accessory Shop owner.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

7. Wow - again, purely conjecture. Some people just don't accept the Jenova cell injections - the cells just don't mix.

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You would argue that a written work would contain the greatest amount of unintentional coincedences in history? Zack accepts himself. He doesn't go bathttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif smurfing loco due to JENOVA Cell injections or Mako infusion. It's also said that he doesn't have a reaction to JENOVA's Cells. Another member of SOLDIER -- who would have undergone the same procedures -- clearly came out of it just fine, as well, and when the call of the Reunion is sent out, he shows only faint signs of being affected by it, rather suggestive of a lack of reaction. Lucrecia, another individual injected with JENOVA's Cells has been seeing Sephiroth in her dreams of late, that being only a faint response to the call of the Reunion. Like Zack, she's accepted herself, despite despising herself.

Unlike either Lucrecia or Zack, Cloud didn't accept himself, had a reaction to JENOVA's Cells, and was manipulated into going to the Reunion, as well as handing over the Black Materia against his will at the Temple of the Ancients, and was nearly forced to kill Aerith. However, after accepting himself, he easily purges himself of the influence of those/the one who had been previously manipulating him.

You're going to argue that all of those incidents of either not having a reaction to JENOVA's Cells or being able to resist control were just one big coincedence that had acceptance of self as a common thread, despite them occurring within a written work in which such things had to be thought up and placed within the story?

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Some of the clones had minor reactions, but nothing substantial.

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Zack is the only one said to have not had a reaction. Interestingly enough, he's the only one that was a member of SOLDIER.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

It's just game mechanics - the story needed Cloud to have a reaction, and it's justified by the genetics possibilities.

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Whereas his self-doubt contributed nothing?

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

8. ...so? There's nothing after Cloud "accepted" who he was to justify whether or not he could still be controlled by the Jenova cells. I'd agree he'd be less able ot be manipulated, purely based on the psychology. Jenova easily took Sephiroth because he went insane and his mind was fried; it stands to reason that if the person has a more stable mind, they would be less likely to be fooled. This has nothing to do with basing the Jenova cell reactions on psychological conditions.

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Did you not actually see the ending of the game?:

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(He raises one fist.)

Cloud
"Let's go home proud."

(He lowers it. The others all rise wearily and begin to trudge back to the
exit of the crater. Cloud and Tifa walk together for a few steps when the
screen flashes white. Cloud stops in his tracks. Tifa turns.)

Tifa
"What happened?"

(He lowers his head.)

Cloud
"......I feel it..."

Tifa
"What......"

(The screen goes white, longer this time, with the sound of rushing wind.
Cloud shakes his head.)

Cloud
"He is still...... here."

(Again. Cloud falls to the ground, clutching his head, and we see Cloud's
double, white and ghostlike, fall with him.)

Cloud
"Still......"

(The screen goes white.)

Tifa
"Cloud!?"

(It fades. Cloud is in tremors, still tightly clutching his head.)

Cloud
"He's... laughing..."

(Cloud's double removes from his body and spins off into the distance. The screen goes white once more.)

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This scene is followed by the mental battle between Cloud and Sephiroth's form, a battle which Cloud wins extremely easily. In fact, it's a storyline battle that can't even be lost.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

9-10: Jenova nor Sephiroth ever tried to take over Cloud again, because they didn't have to - they had the Black Materia, Sephiroth viewed Cloud was a weak, failure clone. They didn't need him anymore.

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Again, you didn't see the ending? Even if one were to argue that it was simply Cloud purging his mind of JENOVA/Sephiroth's influence and not an actual battle, then he has still grown strong mentally after his acceptance of himself. Either way, JENOVA/Sephiroth's control/influence was easily broken at that point.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Every point you have can be countered by one that's not based purely on speculation and backed up by in-game facts.

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Where are these in-game facts, as everyone of the points you just presented either required twisting what I said into something it wasn't or ignoring in-game facts and events, while also assuming that the writers didn't know what the hell they were doing and created one of the largest unintentional coincedences in literary history?

By the way, I find it interesting/annoying that you conveniently ignored this:

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

I write. I'm a writer. When I throw something into a story, it's there for a reason. I imagine this to be the case with most writers, especially those on a professional level. If this story had subtleties to the extent of Aerith's age being 22 while there are 22 paths constituting the Sephiroth, or Sephiroth's right arm in the Safer Sephiroth battle being obviously composed of JENOVA (an obvious play on "The right hand of God"), or JENOVA meaning "New God," or Tifa's name being derived from "Tifaret," the central node on the Sephiroth, which represents beauty, love and balance (she's pretty, she loves Cloud, and it is she who guides Cloud back to himself in the Lifestream and restores balance to his mind), then I would think something as blatant as "But weak people like me get lost in the whole thing..." or "Hey, I'm going to be in denial about who I really am and be controlled, then I'm going to accept who I am and admit it to myself and those I accidentally deceived, then be strong enough to not be controlled" is going to have some meaning.

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By the way, you still have yet to offer an explanation aside from the one I have offered for why we see varying degrees of manipulation displayed in those with JENOVA's Cells (Lucrecia and the Junon Accessory Shop owner show only very faint signs, whereas the black-cloaked folks are completely subverted to JENOVA/Sephiroth's will, and Cloud -- who had the benefit of hanging around Zack, one who's will and personality hadn't been shattered -- is somewhere in the middle until becoming like Lucrecia and the Junon Accessory Shop owner). That we see varying degrees of effects tells us automatically that there's got to be more to it than your argument that the Cells either take or they don't, as that suggests an all-or-nothing status where either complete control is present or no control is present, something which is not shown to be the case.

So please respond to these two things if you would. I'm more interested in your response to these previous two paragraphs than I am to the rest in all honesty.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

I, personally, believe that Sephiroth thought that the Planet could survive tapping into the Lifestream to such an extent.

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How?:

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Sephiroth
"By merging with all the energy of the Planet, I will become a
new life forn, a new existence."
"Melding with the Planet... I will cease to exist as I am now."
"Only to be reborn as a 'God' to rule over every soul."

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I see little concern or care for the Planet's survival there.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Remember, he thought he was Cetra.

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Assuming that he still believed that -- and I can't see why he would, since that little dip in the Lifestream in which the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients was absorbed should have revealed that JENOVA wasn't a Cetra; for that matter, the Sephiroth forms in the present never claim to be a Cetra, nor does the Sephiroth form in the Temple of the Ancients contest Aerith's claim that Sephiroth wasn't an Ancient -- then he viewed himself as greater than they and didn't care about their ideals, anyway:

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Cloud
"The Promised Land?"
"No, but..."

Aerith
"Sephiroth is different. He's not an Ancient."

Cloud
"He shouldn't be able to find the Promised Land."

(The screen flashes white. When it fades, we see Sephiroth standing at the
edge of the pit.)

Sephiroth
"...Ah, but I have."

(He floats up, over the pit.)

Sephiroth
"I'm far superior to the Ancients."
"I became a traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge
and wisdom of the Ancients."
"I also gained the knowledge and wisdom of those after the
extinction of the Ancients."
"And soon, I will create the future."

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once again Squall you've certainly proved some facts but one thing that questions me, if Cloud reacted to the Mako and Jenova cells how come he didnt go psycho but only schizo as reffered by a few ppl i know his will was against him changing but cloud never had any complete control over himself

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Originally Posted by Shoden

once again Squall you've certainly proved some facts but one thing that questions me, if Cloud reacted to the Mako and Jenova cells how come he didnt go psycho but only schizo as reffered by a few ppl i know his will was against him changing but cloud never had any complete control over himself

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I would say that Cloud didn't become a vegetable with a completely subverted will like the black-cloaked folks because he had the benefit of being around Zack, one whose will was not broken and whose personality had not been lost. When Zack breaks Cloud out of the Shin-Ra Mansion, Cloud displays some similarities to the black-cloaked folks in that he doesn't appear very cognizant, and later -- at the Temple of the Ancients -- he babbles about calling Meteor in a somewhat similar manner to the black-cloaked folks' babbles concerning the Black Materia or the Reunion.

However, he didn't remain through to the end of the experimentation (being why he didn't have a Number tattoo), and was able to observe Zack, even adopting aspects of Zack's personality. I would say that observing Zack's personality was Cloud's anchor to the mind-not-shattered-leaving-him-as-a-vegetable zone.

using a vehetable is a very good way of putting it I understand it alot betetr now thanks, ok i'm trying to simplify everything into a few sentences

Jenova is an Alien life form from an unknown planet who happened to come at the time of the cetra, Jenova landed on earth leaving a massive crater gave the cetra virus that made em turn into monsters so no one could get in her way of becoming the greatest lifeform ever, however some cetra survived and sealed away jenova just as the planet created the 5 weapons which had to be cast asleep in the northern crater untill Jenova reawoke which was about 2000 years ago approx 30 years before the ff7 story started.
Ghast Discovered Jenova and mistaken her for a cetra and used her for experiments and all sorts, Hojo and Lucrecia had a child who they gave over to Jenova experimentation, the child was born which was sephiroth who became one of the greatest warriors ever, about 24 years later Sephiroth goes rogue at Nibelheim goes tor eactor to take jenova but ends up confronting cloud who with all his strength and fury threw him aside into the mako making him end up at the northern crater legless, jenova still had control and made clones of him or maybe posed as him, she manipulated cloud who at the time had a weak mind into giving sephiroth the black materia, he summons meteor to achieve a godly status, the final confrontation ends at Northern crater, the lifestream and holy stop meteor right before it hits. and there goes FF7 story but what are the true facts and sub stories to it thats we're discussing right?
Jenova used Sephiroth because he was strong and vulnrable at the time of his mid life crisis thingy. after Sephiroth is imprisoned Jenova uses his mind to create meteor and prevent Aeris from returning to the planet so holy could not be summoned, after he was killed by cloud his will was gone so he had no more con trol he was totally dead, but what about Jenova after that? well i dont know


so what do you think people

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Originally Posted by Shoden

once again Squall you've certainly proved some facts but one thing that questions me, if Cloud reacted to the Mako and Jenova cells how come he didnt go psycho but only schizo as reffered by a few ppl i know his will was against him changing but cloud never had any complete control over himself

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To further comment on what Squall of SeeD said, (this is just my opinion on the matter) I believe that when Cloud saw Tifa, he remembered a part of himself that almost needed to be a SOLDIER to impress Tifa. When the bit of consciousness that he had left remember this, he suddenly remembered his determination and drive, which gave him a momentary strength of character, which allowed the JENOVA cells to react to what Tifa was saying to him and kind of make Cloud the Shinra ex-Shinra employee into Cloud the ex-SOLDIER. So Tifa really saved Cloud twice during this game, not once.

Squall of SeeD, I very much like your interpretation of the story, it does make few things in the story make sense.

Holy's original function should also have purged Jenova from the world. Granted, since Holy *failed* in the (more important) task of annihilating Meteor, it's entirely reasonable to believe Jenova survived. What "she'd" probably have to do is lay low, gather herself back together, wait a couple centuries, and try again. Or, if she still has the kind of emotions and ego that one could presume of a sentient, she'd get *REALLY PISSED* and go off on a psychotic final assault before getting herself back to full power.

The Advent Children and Dirge of Cerebus "sequals" to FF7 should have some more info about what happens with Jenova. As well as everyone else. Unfortunately, we have to wait a little while for any definates on that. I don't speak nor read Japanese... :(

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Originally Posted by Shoden

using a vehetable is a very good way of putting it I understand it alot betetr now thanks, ok i'm trying to simplify everything into a few sentences

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It's a pretty close summary. I'll throw in a few corrections where necessary.

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Originally Posted by Shoden

Jenova... gave the cetra virus that made em turn into monsters so no one could get in her way of becoming the greatest lifeform ever...

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It's possible, but we can't be sure of exactly what JENOVA's intention there was. I would say it certainly targeted the Cetra, as its use of illusions of their dead relatives to get close to them suggests a pre-meditated attack, but whatever its goal had been is, sadly, impossible to determine at this time.

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Originally Posted by Shoden

Jenova reawoke... approx 30 years before the ff7 story started.

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JENOVA was discovered by Gast around that time, but didn't reawaken for a good many years after. At least 6 years after the discovery of JENOVA, Ifalna states that JENOVA was still unconscious, so we can assume that it must have reawaken some time in the next 24 years.


Though the last parts about Sephiroth being JENOVA's puppet are conjecture, I personally agree with that interpretation, by the way.

Did the game ever say why Zack was injected with jenova cells? Since he was already a member of SOLDIER wouldn't he have already been injected with JENOVA's cells? Is this why he did not show any effect while cloud did?

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Originally Posted by BorIzEE27

Did the game ever say why Zack was injected with jenova cells? Since he was already a member of SOLDIER wouldn't he have already been injected with JENOVA's cells? Is this why he did not show any effect while cloud did?

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No, because Cloud was exposed to the Mako twice, and was affected the second time. Zack would only have gotten a greater dose- if he fought it and won the first, he'd have to fight it and win again. Something he clearly did.

Raistlin:

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No, Holy could stop Meteor. Holy's sole use is not to protect the Planet - it's to counter Meteor. Holy destroyed Meteor; the Lifestream merely protected the Planet from the battle. If the Lifestream had not interfered, Holy would have still destroyed Meteor - just very probably would have destroyed the Planet as well.

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Because no, Raistlin, I don't have anything better to do...

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Bugenhagen
"Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against
Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor."
"If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear."

(He bounces happily)

Bugenhagen
"Ho Ho Hoooo."
"Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear."

(He leans conspiratorially toward them.)

Bugenhagen
"Perhaps, even ourselves."

Cloud
"Even us!?"

Bugenhagen
"It is up to the planet to decide."

(He floats higher, above them.)

Bugenhagen
"What is best for the planet. What is bad for the planet."
"All that is bad will disappear. That is all."

(He bounces)

Bugenhagen
"Ho Ho Hooo."
"I wonder which we humans are?"

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