Printable View
omg i think im out of arguments but ill try nonetheless
alright got one took me a while but....
it is mewt's dream world that means all of the creatures in ivalice exept the 5 of them where or real or not if they would be real they would go back if there not real you cant kill them so if they never existed they cant die becuase they never lived (geez this is some crazy stuff)
to bad you cant chat but this is fun enough for now
your turn m8
When Ivalice town became Ivalice world didnt the town people become people from different races with no memory of the former world except for the five?
Ok, if I understand what you are saying correctly, you are saying that if all of Ivalice's inhabitants were real, they would go back to the real world as well, and if they weren't real, it wouldn't really matter, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by tailz
Well, I thought about that, but I don't think that it happened that way. Even the people we know had creatures based off of them had no recollection of Ivalice when they got back to the real world (the three bullies obviously didn't remember Ivalice, or they wouldn't have kept picking on Mewt), and also didn't remember the real world while they were in Ivalice. The problem with this is that the five of them did remember everything. Why just them? What is so important about those five, that they are the only ones to retain their memories through the journey? I pointed out why I think they were there, but that assumed that they were the only ones actually travelling to the other world. If everyone in Ivalice was actually a person from the real world, then they should have remembered the real world, especially when the crystal's were destroyed. But they don't. And while Mewt and Cid ignored their past memories, Montblanc clearly remembered being in Ivalice his entire life. If he was a person from St. Ivalice, shouldn't he have either memories of the real world, or no memories at all?
*Boing*
yes definatly boing :P
the five of them remeberd what happend in ivalice becuase they were important to mewt and the rest like montblanc shara and co where just imaginations of mewt so they just dont know about st ivalice
go ahead :D
The reason those five remembered is probably because they were the five covered in Mewts wish. No one else was involved in the spell. The rest remember there past lifes in Ivalice town. When the town is changing to the Ivalice world you can see random towns people becoming Bangaa and Noumou etc. They wouldnt have any memory of Ivalice town because Mewts wish wasnt about them. They were just caught up in it and dint notice anything different.
*Shrug*
Cid wasn't a part of it either, though. Only Mewt, Doned, Ritz, and Marche were there when Mewt read the book.
its not about reading the book those 5 where in mewts memories just like the bullies but they were in his bad nightmare so they became zombies
look i got reinforcments :P
your turn
So why didn't the zombie bullies remember St. Ivalice, if those 5 did?
The Zombie bullies may of remembered St Ivalice, but you never get a chance to talk to them...I'm sure if you sat down with them and had a friendly chat, they would remember (not that i suggest having a friendly chat to a zombie)
who says zombies can speak i never heard them say anything but maybe they werent dam but because mewts got bad memories of those names he uncounsiesly named the zombies that way
oh and if this goes on im siding with sky because now its 3 vs 1 thats not fair
Really? Thanks. :p I hope I don't need the help though. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by tailz
Well, vampires can talk, so I think that zombies probably can too. The boss in "Salika Keep" is a vampire who confuses you with Gaol. Also, Lich De Mort, Falgabird of earth and stone, might talk to you when you face him, although I am not sure. If so, then zombies can talk, because he is a zombie.
But I think that if the zombies had remembered St. Ivalice, they would have been as disoriented as Marche when they arrived in Ivalice. They just sit in the Lutia Pass the whole time throwing snowballs at people. Wouldn't they have tried to ask Ritz and Marche what's going on? Sure, Ritz and Doned liked the changes that happened to them when they came to Ivalice, but I don't think that the bullies would like becoming zombies, would they?
Also, the people you see change into a Nu Mou, Bangaa, and Viera when St. Ivalice becomes Ivalice, why don't they remember anything? When Marche arrived, he was confused and tried to figure out what was going on. Those guys just went on as though nothing had happened. They didn't even wonder why the entire world had changed around them, or why they had suddenly become non human creatures. Even if their memories had been wiped, I think that they, like Cid and Mewt, should have remembered something when the crystals were destroyed. Yet there is no rumor about mass hallucinations...
:music: The wonderful thing about Tiggers, is Tiggers are wonderful things. Their tops are made out of rubber, their bottoms are made out of springs. They're bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun. But the most wonderful thing about Tiggers is I'm the only one. Yes, I'm, the only one! :music:
i think theyre not confused because they never knew of st ivalice like i said before they dont exist in st ivalice they are all yust part of mewts dream world marche and co were in it becuase they were his friends and the bullies because mewt has bad memories of them so they were zombiesQuote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
your trun and just tell me when it gets to hard angainst 3 ill change sides
I dont think they remembered because they werent beneffiting from Mewts wish, They were being cast aside in it and also they were monsters hence they were mindless in general FF terms. I think thats looking too much into the game, expecting some monster who were given the same names as bullies as a joke from the creators.
Here here! I was wondering when someone would get to this arguement. You may be quite right. I may be looking too much into the game. But I like my games to make sense, and this theory was the one that fit all the facts to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Destai
As to it just being a joke from the creators, I would think that, if it were not for the fact that Ritz mentions them. In the Mortal Snow mission, when Ritz joins your clan, she talks about them, and about how they were throwing snowballs at passing people. She says "This snowball fight is over!" (a quote from Mr. Leslaie, in fact) and later "I'm not saying that those were Lyle, Colin, and Guinness, but..." or something to that effect. My theory is that those three monsters were based off of Lyle, Colin, and Guinness, but were not actually the three bullies from St. Ivalice. Since that fits my theory, I'm going with that over the idea that it is a joke by the creators (although I actually think it's both). If those three monsters were Lyle, Colin, and Guinness, then I think they should have remembered St. Ivalice. After all, they would have been part of Mewt's wish. Otherwise, they wouldn't have kept the same names. Montblanc, Ezel, Babus, Shara... All of them could be people from the real world with no memories, they were brought through just because the world changed, and they needed to go somewhere, but Ritz, Doned, Cid, Mewt, and Marche were all brought through with their memories intact. Lyle, Colin, and Guinness should have been brought that way too. You can't argue that they don't remember because they were changed, because everyone changed, as I already pointed out. Ritz's hair became red, Doned's illness got better... So the bullies became monsters. I don't believe that would change the fact that they would remember St. Ivalice. If those three were not just a joke by the creators, then they could become the crux of the entire arguement, as they are the only people besides the main five who are brought through directly. No one else kept the same name when they went from St. Ivalice to Ivalice. Since the bullies did, that means that they were brought through "directly" as well, so they should have retained their memories. If my theory is correct, they played a big enough role in Mewt's mind that they manifested as monsters in Ivalice, but they are still seperate from the bullies in St. Ivalice. They kept their names because Mewt was afraid of them. Three random bullies would have been nothing to Mewt, especially when he was Prince Mewt, but Lyle, Colin, and Guinness would still invoke fear in his heart, because of all that he had suffered at their hands. By keeping their names, they keep the significance Mewt placed on them. Without the names, they would have been meaningless, just random zombies attacking travellers. Ritz recognized the zombies as Lyle, Colin, and Guinness, and I think she suspected why they were there. She was the one who protected Mewt from them in the real world, and she stood up to them again in Ivalice.
Oh, and one more thing: "Mortal Snow", the mission where you get Ritz, is not the only mission in which you face the three bullies as undead. I do not remember the name of the other mission now, but next time I play through the game I will be sure to report it. Anyway, in the other mission (one that occurs before Mewt leaves Ivalice, and Ritz does not participate in it), you defeat Lyle, Colin, and Guinness in their undead forms. But when Mewt left, they returned. Why? I think that it is probably a result of Mewt's actions. A ghost of Remedi returned when Mewt left as well. Mewt's leaving (without destroying the world, as per my theory) had a similar effect as Mewt's arrival (Lutia Pass isn't usually that snow filled [75% of the missions you fight there have no snow], but more "Snow in Lutia" type missions came up when Mewt left, because his departure was similar to his arrival). Things that were important to him came back to the world, even though they were already destroyed. So the three that you fight in "Mortal Snow" were actually not based off of Lyle, Colin, and Guinness, but rather off of the three monsters with those names that you faced earlier, and that those three were the ones that were actually based off of the bullies from the real world. Similarly, the ghost of Remedi was based off of Queen Remedi, who in turn was based off of Remedi from the real world. This is why Babus was able to recognize that the ghost of Remedi was not the real Queen. Just like Mewt and Cid were eventually able to tell that Queen Remedi was not really Mewt's mom. This is probably also why Ritz was unsure that the three zombies were Lyle, Colin, and Guinness. They were similar, but they were not the same. The real Lyle, Colin, and Guinness never left St. Ivalice. When Mewt went to Ivalice, undead were formed from a combination of Mewt's feelings and the three bullies' personalities. Queen Remedi, on the other hand, was not formed by mixing the real Remedi (Mewt's mom. We never actually get told that Remedi is her name, but I think that it's a safe assumption) with how Mewt remembered her, or how he wished her to be. The real Remedi was dead. Queen Remedi in Ivalice was based purely on Mewt's thoughts about his mother. The Lyle, Colin, and Guinness that you fight in "Mortal Snow" are more dangerous and powerful than the original three undead, because they were formed by mixing the original three undead with Mewt's feelings about Lyle, Colin, and Guinness. So three quarters of those monsters were Mewt's thoughts, and the other quarter was based off of the original people. The ghost of Remedi was half Queen Remedi, and half Mewt's thoughts on Remedi (and Mewt's thoughts about Queen Remedi changed a lot when he left). I think this is how the people in Ivalice who are based on people in St. Ivalice came to be, by combining the person's actual personality with what Mewt thought about them, and changing them to fit the world. That is why none of them remember St. Ivalice, because they were never in St. Ivalice. They came into existance at the same time Ivalice did, and they vanished with it.
...I think I should stop typing before my fingers fall off...
Your turn. :D
well you say they came into existence when ivalice was formed that means ytou agree atleast with my argument that they dont existQuote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
by the way that mision you have to save uhm i think is was prof augie or another profesor
i think we agree a bit more now about this discusion wich has probably nothing to do with would you leave but k