abortion

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Originally Posted by Dr.K

When it comes down to it, I think just using the word 'abortion' is too vague for an argument of this nature - you need to know the actual situation. It's like asking someone "do you think murder is right?" "Oooh, no, never! Of course not!" But then them saying "oh, but capital punishment's okay though" They're both murder - it's just one TYPE of murder which is considered more justifiable than the other, as udsuna said. Likewise, there is no one type of abortion - they could be needed as a result of unprotected sex, rape etc. There is no one, be all, end all situation in which an abortion is needed. Therefore, I think to tackle this issue you need to think with more fluidity about what kind of scenarios are involved when abortions are requested, and the ethical issues connected with having one and not having one. Who's rights need more attention - the baby's or the mother's?
Addressing the issue solely of "Do you think it's wrong/right to kill a baby after the moment of conception", I'd agree. Then again, I'd also agree with giving a woman an abortion if she had been raped. The sword is always double-edged in my opinion.

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*Applause* very well put.

The way the woman became impregnated is irrelevant. Sure, you may frown upon unprotected sex when the girl doesn't want to become pregnant(I sure as hell do), but you can't punish them for it with laws. You can't make laws of pure moral issues.

Sure irresponsible sex is a horrible thing - but it isn't, and should not be, illegal.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Sure irresponsible sex is a horrible thing - but it isn't, and should not be, illegal.

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Of course, but the killing of human beings for no reason but one's own selfish wants... shouldn't THAT be illegal? Last I checked, it usually is.

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Of course, but the killing of human beings for no reason but one's own selfish wants... shouldn't THAT be illegal? Last I checked, it usually is.

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I thought it had already been adequately demonstrated that aborting a two-month pregnancy is no worse(and probably better) than killing a sperm or an egg.

I am pro-choice. for it is the mother having the child after all, but there should be little abuse on this privilage, and like previously mentioned a cut off period, like after it has a heart beat (If I remeber correctly, that is in the second trimester, that is when the organs start to develop too). Also, there should be a promotion of safe-sex to prevent unwanted births.

Personally, I am against abortion, for life, is life. But I cannot be blinded by that, and that is why I think the moher should have the choice. The father not as much, for he is not the one carrying the soon to be child.

Also people forgot to mention, what about if you got a karyotype of the fetus, and you knew the child was going to be born with non-disjunction, or another gentic related disease? Or that the father wants, and would take care of the child, whilst the mother doesn't? There are many aspects to it. I think may never be resolved. There are too many points, all valid.

I'm wondering why all the people who say it's ok when the women is raped haven't addressed the issue I brought up in my first post. Why do you think that killing babies is ok sometimes? I mean, I don't consider it a baby, so that's why I think it's ok. But if I thought abortion was killing a baby, I sure as hell wouldn't support it under any circumstances.

Also, it's not a matter of the baby's vs. the mother's rights to me. A sperm doesn't have rights, and neither does a zygote.

Emerald: The reason why people think that a mother should have a right to choose when rape is involved is because the baby was unplanned and forced upon them. You try to look at it from a baby's point of view rather than the mother's.

You can't say you wouldn't do the same, because no one has ever raped you into being pregnant. Try to imagine that the baby is not what the mother wanted, and every mother has a right to choose whose baby it is. Imagine if the child was 10 years old and you had to tell him/her how she came about..."Oh, your daddy raped me." Right. It's probably best the baby not live as a result through rape and an abortion should be had ASAP.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

I thought it had already been adequately demonstrated that aborting a two-month pregnancy is no worse(and probably better) than killing a sperm or an egg.

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Not even close. You haven't said anything. If that specific egg and sperm cell was predestined to be fertalized, then it would be wrong to destroy it. If some couple had a sample of sperm frozen for later fertalization because the husband might end up dying from some soon-to-occur event (say, surgery). And the wife planned to concieve with that sperm at a later time, and some bastard destroyed the sperm, then THAT is, so far as I'm concerned, the moral equivalent to murder.

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Originally Posted by udsuna

Not even close. You haven't said anything. If that specific egg and sperm cell was predestined to be fertalized, then it would be wrong to destroy it. If some couple had a sample of sperm frozen for later fertalization because the husband might end up dying from some soon-to-occur event (say, surgery). And the wife planned to concieve with that sperm at a later time, and some bastard destroyed the sperm, then THAT is, so far as I'm concerned, the moral equivalent to murder.

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There is a very distinct difference between "moral" and "legal," which I feel you are failing to grasp. Some things are obviously immoral, but not illegal.

EDIT: Also...so the killing of an egg not planned and set aside for fertilization is perfectly fine? Why? Do unwanted eggs have less rights? It seems to me that with that argument you are arguing for abortion.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

There is a very distinct difference between "moral" and "legal," which I feel you are failing to grasp. Some things are obviously immoral, but not illegal.

EDIT: Also...so the killing of an egg not planned and set aside for fertilization is perfectly fine? Why? Do unwanted eggs have less rights? It seems to me that with that argument you are arguing for abortion.

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First, I grasp the difference between moral and legal. We're not talking about legalities here, in case you forgot... this is pure moral debate.

And killing an egg/sperm isn't necessarily a good or bad thing. But, an unnused sex cell is meaningless. Dies quickly on its own. But, to deny a chance for a life to form, that's wrong (aside from the natural processes).

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First, I grasp the difference between moral and legal. We're not talking about legalities here, in case you forgot... this is pure moral debate.

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However, you also have to argue the other side. You may think abortion's wrong, but in order to justify that opinion, you must also consider the ramifications of instituting such a legal policy.

I don't believe abortion should be used as a method of birth control for irresponsible people. I believe adoption is an excellent alternative, and I have several friends, and family members, who were adopted.

However, I also believe that I can't force my beliefs on someone else. Personally, I would could not imagine a situation in which I would have an abortion. But I have friends who have had them, and while I understand their reasoning, I disagree based on my own morals. Whether or not it should be legal? I agree with TheAbominatrix. If it were illegal, hundreds of women would become sick, disabled, and dead due to botched, back alley surgery. And do they deserve that for being scared or foolish or irresponsible or because they're victims? I don't think so.

I think abortion is murder. People should give better reasons for killing a unborn baby, particulary woman. It should only be done if the woman's life is threatened, or the woman was raped. The man also should have say into abortion, because he made the child to. I know this brings up the issue of womans rights, but what about the mans? Not trying to be sexiest here, but it takes a man and a woman to make a baby right? Yes thats right, it does. Also if the woman doesnt want the baby why not give it up for adoption?

Thats my thoughts.

Remember the Scott Peterson trial that ended not too long ago? In reference to that--and many other cases--why is it illegal to kill an unborn baby and the mother, but not illegal just to kill the baby? Ol' Scotty was charged with the murder of his wife AND their unborn child. But if his wife had wanted their child murdered and had it done herself, it would be perfectly legal. In fact, if his wife had had an abortion the day before she was murdered, it would have only been a single-murder case, and the death of her baby would go unpunished by law.

I strongly disagree with abortion, the only exception being if the mother's life would be endangered by carrying the child to full term. Other than that--rape, incest, too young, whatever--the mother should carry it until birth, then, if she doesn't want to raise it, put it up for adoption. As for rape, there's always the "morning after pill", which keeps the egg from attaching and it is flushed out with the natural menstrual cycle before it develops.

And TheAbominatrix--you support its continued legalization, if only on the grounds that it keeps mothers from getting back-alley abortions? That's like saying the government should start producing crystal meth, because home meth labs are so dangerous. After all, if it's legal, it's easy to regulate, right? No way.

"Emerald: The reason why people think that a mother should have a right to choose when rape is involved is because the baby was unplanned and forced upon them. You try to look at it from a baby's point of view rather than the mother's."

hey, I'm all for abortion. I'm just saying that those people who say that abortion is wrong because it's killing babies, but is ok if the woman was raped are saying that it's ok to kill babies in some circumstances. That doesn't make sense to me. If the baby was born, it would never be ok to kill it. So if those people really believe that a zygote is a baby, I don't see why it would ever be ok.

"You can't say you wouldn't do the same, because no one has ever raped you into being pregnant."

How about not assuming you know so much about my life? I said I'm for abortion, just that I don't understand that particular viewpoint. Either it's not a baby, and it's ok, or it is a baby, and it's not ok.