the anti war hero thread

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Originally Posted by CloudSquallandZidane

Without soldiers some country with soldiers, would walk in and enslave us.

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Well I sure don't know 'bout your area but I know in my area the people here would fight like wildcats for the defense if we were being invaded. Goodness gracias it isn't too far of a strech to say that farmers would try and make tanks out of thier combines, we have many LARGE, and sometimes NASTY, HUMAN BITING dogs here as well. Not to mention we have a nuclear plant withing 20-40 miles(if I recall correctly) that is still active enough we could use it as bomb.

Trust me, if someone invaded the US there would be plenty willing to fight and sacrifice alot.

Fighting for money/benifits which is why most people I know go into the military, I believe Redneck addressed that once to(that military is a source of money).

Make it so any job just supplies basic neccesity and see what people pick. I am certian there would be far, far fewer soldiers. I know I would either review books or go into computers, which fortunately is what I am good at and will be able to do(Majoring in computers in college... I already fix many people's computers. Usually for free, though if they insist I will accept payment, since it helps the family as whole).

Anyways I am wondering.

Well, at first (i.e. before today) I would disagree with you. I would have said that every person who joins the military, and goes out and fights in a war like this, is a hero in their own way. They all deserve our utmost respect, praise, the whole deal.

But just today, my school had a man come and talk to us, who's registered as a conscientious objector to the war, and he talked about his experiences---mainly how OUR soldiers treated the Iraqu civilians, and prisoners of war. I am DISGUSTED. Now, I am well aware that there are plenty of soldiers who are good people, and stay that way when they go to Iraq, but now I know ther's many who aren't. I was showed pictures of soldiers who were mutilating Iraqi bodiees after they were dead, shooting prisoners of war for throwing sticks and stones at them, breaking their legs and carring them out around the 25 degree weather like it's some sort of game. Keeping civilians in prison for 6 months to a year for doing nothing, and then treating them like crap. THESE are not heros, in my opinion. So I'll go along and say that the average soldier isn't a hero. Sure, he'll give up his life for his country, and I can respect and admire that, but if he's participated in the above acts, no way. That's just doing too much evil for me.


:D

Unfortunately while that may not be the norm it does happen. Something when you are in a situation like that can put you "over the edge". You may do things you would otherwise not do. A couple teachers spent a while talking about it and what can psychologically lead to it, but that was a while ago and I did not follow it well.

Soldiers for the most part are like any other population group. There are bad soldiers, good soldiers, great soldiers, and average soldiers. Average don't really deserve any more respect then any one else who works to help.

I know several people in the local animal rescue group and they give up alot of time, money(transferable to luxuries), and even thier health in some instances to help fix the wrongs that our kind has done. I help them when I can, but I don't actually do much with the animals. I help with fund raisers, I take care of the building's lawn and maintance, etc.

Also these people don't stop there, they do many hospital/nursing homes/etc visits with the dogs. You know TDI(Therapy dog international). It is amazing how much this sick, many times elder, people respond to the dogs, particually when you compare to how they normally act. I also help with TDI, My dog is actually quite popular. She is medium sized(easy to get up to thier height to pet) but not too heavy, so they can hold her. And she is soft and silky.. I like to just sit there and run my hands through her hair, and so do they. Also I taught her to walk on her hind legs, and I dress her up in a bonnet, so she looks adorable. The older ones love this. We call my dog the little ol' lady sometimes. I just wish I had glasses I could get to stay on her head.

Enough ranting, those people at the animal rescue who also donate time and money for hospital visits and such, as well as run drives when 9/11 happened are all in one club, that I participate in, though I prefer behind the scenes work, cept in therapy(though those visits can be emotionally straining at times, my dog is good at it though.. but TDI won't pass her, she needs ok'ed at each place before hand). But This isn't the only such club that spends time, money, health to help people and animals, these clubs are countrywide. And there are several of them in my area alone. On some of those visits I see people visiting wiht animals that I have never seen before. And the club is growing, rather then shrinking.

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You tend to do so every time there is a war. There is nothing wrong with supporting the troops.

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We also tend to do so when there isn't a war.

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However, when it turns into "support the troops" bumper stickers, and refrigerator magnets, and stupid yellow ribbons it crosses the border from support, to absurdity. I must ask, how does having a bumper sticker that says "support the troops" do anything to support the troops? It does nothing. The troops that need support can't even see it. All it does is rally support on the homefront and thats what it was designed for.

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And how does wearing a pink ribbon "support" fighting breast cancer? Or a red ribbon support fighting AIDS, or a white ribbon support fighting Leukemia, or a blue ribbon support porn, or whatever other colors might mean (I'm sure there are more--but yellow, pink, red, white, and blue are the only ones I can think of offhand)? Or a black ribbon mean support of Clinton? (Hey, I wore one when he was re-elected...) To assume that Americans voicing their opinion amounts to a conspiracy to trick you into supporting war is... well, I don't understand where you're coming from on this one.

And actually, the troops that need support can see it. TV, pictures, internet, all that good stuff--and quite a few of them have made note of that fact that it means a lot to them to have support at home.

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My problem with that, is that the improvement on one person's life will, whenever a soldier is concerned, always come at the expense of another person's life.

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Actually, our soldiers spend a lot more time doing everything from digging ditches to shuffling paperwork than we do walking around shooting people. Keep in mind that when the tsunami hit the first folks coming around were US Navy ships--carrying goods and purifying water.

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You'd be suprised how many of us hippie liberal pacifists also support the military.

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What I've seen so far about how much support the military gets from that quarter hasn't surprised me a bit.

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But just today, my school had a man come and talk to us, who's registered as a conscientious objector to the war, and he talked about his experiences---mainly how OUR soldiers treated the Iraqu civilians, and prisoners of war. I am DISGUSTED.

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And what kind of evidence did this... fellow have for these claims?

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Originally Posted by The Redneck

Actually, our soldiers spend a lot more time doing everything from digging ditches to shuffling paperwork than we do walking around shooting people. Keep in mind that when the tsunami hit the first folks coming around were US Navy ships--carrying goods and purifying water.

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that is true enough, the army isn't all about killing.

As for the support our troops. I would probably have ribbons and such as: wishing safety, a safe return, etc..

Supporting, in my mind, implies that I aggree with why they are there. A bit odd maybe, but It is how I take. But I do have nothing wrong with people showing thier support.. I just do it my way.



Btw I didn't put this in my last post, but I don't think of the animal rescue people as heros or extraordinary just good people, so in my mind you must at least surpass that. I actually consider them mostly normal. I am a selfish kid, and I can recognize it, I do give time and money, but not as much as I could, I still look out for number 1 first, then maybe if I feel like I will do what I can for them.

Which is why I don't veiw this as bashing, I ain't trying to put them beneth my lvl, many are likely above my lvl, they just aren't at the level of hero or extraordinary in my mind.

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I want to know what the bastards are thinking who put people up in the frontlines.

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$$$$

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And how does wearing a pink ribbon "support" fighting breast cancer? Or a red ribbon support fighting AIDS, or a white ribbon support fighting Leukemia, or a blue ribbon support porn, or whatever other colors might mean (I'm sure there are more--but yellow, pink, red, white, and blue are the only ones I can think of offhand)? Or a black ribbon mean support of Clinton? (Hey, I wore one when he was re-elected...) To assume that Americans voicing their opinion amounts to a conspiracy to trick you into supporting war is... well, I don't understand where you're coming from on this one.

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Ribbons don't support anything. They are simply just ways for people to pretend like they are helping. The average individual doesn't really care about any of that stuff.

Also, I don't necessarily mean it is a conspiracy, but the outcome of those ribbons, and stickers, etc. is exactly how I described it.

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And what kind of evidence did this... fellow have for these claims?

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Oh come on... Do you somehow believe that America is exempt from being the "bad guy"? I don't even need specific instances to know that this stuff happens. You will always have bad guys in this world. Give a bad guy a gun, and well... Thats what happens.

redneck proof of us soldiers treating civilians badly can be seen in both the US and UK scandals regarding human rights abuses in iraq.

but staying on topic. what do i give to these people for supposedly sving my freedom? my taxes which pay for their lving quarters, food, holidays, trips abroad, training, health care, their child's school, the gun in their hand and the plane flying over head, the clubs and sports facilities, water, electricity, gas and a very very nice pension scheme.

above is also why people join the army not to become a hero or save lives. most will never see active duty in iraq. many will spent a year or two in cyprus or malta and never have a bullet go past their ear. they perform thier job as ordered in the same way i do everyday.

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Originally Posted by nik0tine

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And what kind of evidence did this... fellow have for these claims?

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Oh come on... Do you somehow believe that America is exempt from being the "bad guy"? I don't even need specific instances to know that this stuff happens. You will always have bad guys in this world. Give a bad guy a gun, and well... Thats what happens.

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I can personally tell you this guy's full of it. You don't think you need specific instances because those "specific instances" never occurred.

Just because we disagree with this doesn't mean we somehow believe that America is "exempt from being the 'bad guy'". Why do some people believe that America is always the "bad guy"?

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I can personally tell you this guy's full of it. You don't think you need specific instances because those "specific instances" never occurred.

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Uh, Iraqi prisoner abuse doesnt ring a bell?

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Without soldiers some country with soldiers, would walk in and enslave us.

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I would love to see someone trying to invade the US. When you consider the number of gun owners in this country, the military would be the least of their worries. :D

abuses of power for which soldiers deserve no respect are well documented for a very long time.

as far back in british history as richard the lionheart, in the boer war and that invention of concentration camps, american POW camps in germany during the second world war, abu gahrib, british treatment of civillians, camp x-ray and so forth. to say prisoner abuses by the military have never happened is either great ignorance or an out-right lie.

the point is that a good man is a good man no matter what job he does. a bad man is still a ban man in the military but now he has a gun and greater power. an exceptional military man is an exceptional man. but being in the armed forces does not rise them up above the rest of us.

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I can personally tell you this guy's full of it. You don't think you need specific instances because those "specific instances" never occurred.

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And you know this becuase??
Every army has trigger happy idiots. It isn't something that is preventable. You are going to get bastards in the army, and those bastards are going to be bastards when given the chance.

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Why do some people believe that America is always the "bad guy"?

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Because they can't think past thier anger.

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Actually, our soldiers spend a lot more time doing everything from digging ditches to shuffling paperwork than we do walking around shooting people. Keep in mind that when the tsunami hit the first folks coming around were US Navy ships--carrying goods and purifying water.

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If the armed forces were just about humanitarian missions, the I'd be first on the list to join. However, the primary goal of the military is not to serve humanitarian purposes. It's to operate in hostile situations, and serve the interests of its government in such hostile situations. I do not trust the judgment of any government to be invariably right when it comes to the deployment of forces in such hostile situations, but the nature of the military requires you to do just that.

It is a result of the above, that although I can support the troops from a humane perspective, I cannot support them idealogically.

And my empathy for them only extends so far. They joined the military in full knowledge that they could be placed in an impossible situation by an incompetant government, and so all I really have to say to them is: hope you make it back alive.

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Originally Posted by nik0tine

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Anyone who puts on that uniform, and is prepared to defend the country, is the only reason that u can say what ur saying. Without soldiers some country with soldiers, would walk in and enslave us. That is why every soldier should be honored for their commitment and sacrifice for people they dont even know.

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Oh please... That argument is baseless. Yes it is true that without soldiers we would be conquered, but when was the last time they actually "fought for our freedom"? They haven't done it often, and they haven't done it for a loooong time.

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Now take a look at ur post, that is a baseless arguement. See the comparison...

Their EXISTENCE is the reason why u are not conquered and enslaved sir. The fact that not only would any attacking country be defeated, but horribly massaquered is reason why freedom of speech still exists. People sign up to serve and defend freedom, even though they dont even know u. And here we r in a crowd belittling their sacrifice. Their are soldiers out there right now hunting down Osama Bin Laden to bring him to justice, not just to prevent it from happening again, but also for the memories of all those innocent who died because of his actions.

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Originally Posted by DarkLadyNyara

I would love to see someone trying to invade the US. When you consider the number of gun owners in this country, the military would be the least of their worries.

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And what if they said "For every one of our soldiers killed, we'll take 500 innocent out into the street and murder them.". I think the violence would slow down pretty quick. The military is here as a preventative against invasion, or forgein attack.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

abuses of power for which soldiers deserve no respect are well documented for a very long time.

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Ok, Cloud i understand that there are bad people in the world, and yes some of them put on U.S. Armed Forces Uniforms, and go to work everyday, but its totally riddiculous to point to the few and far between instances of abuse and say that it was everyone, or to suggest every1 behaves as such.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

they perform thier job as ordered in the same way i do everyday.

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Yep and pray they do it well, becauase the military needs to be a well oiled machine, we have to be the best army in the world, with the best equipment and the best training, or else China might think about stepping in, we r her last bit of competition left.

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Originally Posted by The Redneck

What I've seen so far about how much support the military gets from that quarter hasn't surprised me a bit.

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Well just know im one that supports our troops sacrifice, hell Aug. 30 im in training to be one, because they need my help and ill be damned if im gonna let someone else protect the freedoms of my family and country.

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Originally Posted by ShunNakamura

Trust me, if someone invaded the US there would be plenty willing to fight and sacrifice alot.

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We have plenty willing to fight and sacrifice alot, they are the US Armed Forces, and they go out every day, for little... very little pay(considering) knowing that everyday they could be called upon to pick up an M16 and possibly die, or worse for their family, friends, loved ones, and most amazingly people they dont even know. Even in the Air Force, there are soldiers that were pulled out of their jobs and are being sent to man the 50 caliber rifles on convoys in Iraq, because the Army and Marines need us there. So every1 knows if something horrible happened like a China/North Korea attack, every in the service could be called upon to fight.

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Their EXISTENCE is the reason why u are not conquered and enslaved sir. The fact that not only would any attacking country be defeated, but horribly massaquered is reason why freedom of speech still exists. People sign up to serve and defend freedom, even though they dont even know u. And here we r in a crowd belittling their sacrifice. Their are soldiers out there right now hunting down Osama Bin Laden to bring him to justice, not just to prevent it from happening again, but also for the memories of all those innocent who died because of his actions.

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First of all, he agreed with you in the first part of your statement. Second of all, you seemed to ignore the fact that actual times im which American Soldiers fought for our freedom is not often, and most wars or conflicts fought by American troops are done by political motives, not necessarily for the total intrest of the American people. I care a lot about people who sign up to the servies to protect my rights, but if you are here to support such conflicts such as Vietnam and such, I hardly consider that a fight to protect my freedom as you describe it. I'm not going to bash the soldiers who went to that war, because a friend I have went there, but just because we go to war for a reason does not justify it as freedom for us. As for Bin Laden, I would like to hand it to the Bush Administration of the fine job he is tracking down the bastard. Not only did he get away from the Clinton Administration, who were very concerned of the freedom of the American people, and choose to ignore Bin Laden after the 1993 World Trade Center bombings, but he also got away from the Bush Administration, and I'm not too convinced that Bush even cares about finding him or not.