So did Anakin fullfill the prophecy and bring balance to the force

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Originally Posted by JAS4Yeshua

I agree with RSL. It seemed more like Palpatine was manipulating things to "prove" to Anakin that the Jedi were the ones that were wrong. Although why he became withered as a result? Perhaps it had something to do with the purple lightsaber? I've heard the different colors have different powers, but I don't know what they are off hand.

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LOL... his becomming withered is a pretty simple matter.... you DO realize that as he's trying to use force lightning on Windu, Mace overpowers him and forces the lightning back onto Palpatine, right? And once Mace has done so, Sidious is unable to control the power and he is basically FRYING himself. The deformity comes about as a result of Palpatine's power being turned against himself, which of course the lightning is essentially cooking him... when things are cooking, water evaporates..when you lose water from living cells, it's like a balloon in that it'll shrivel up as it gets smaller...remove volume from any object that's been stretched due to the sheer volume contained therein, and it shrivels, loses elasticity, and gives you that whole "saggy boob" look. I just LOOOVE that now no one can forget about Mace even in the old trilogy.... every time you see Palpatine you're reminded that his distortion is due to Mace, the Jedi who'd have killed him had it not been for the combined efforts of the two most powerful guys in the galaxy.

By the way, I like where you're going with the theory that Palpatine was letting Windu win, BUT I have to disagree with you there. If he were looking to further manipulate Anakin into turning, he could have simply surrendered when first confronted by Mace and his entourage, and then continued to use his mental connection with Anakin to wear him down and get him to rescue him as he did once before. He chose to fight, and got outdueled, it's as simple as that. I believe he'd already been disarmed and was lying on the window ledge before Anakin had even entered the room. Then he started out with his cowardish little pleas, simply because he had no way of surviving without help at that point. If he were looking to MAKE Anakin choose, he'd be putting his life in Anakin's hands and have no say of his own as to whether he'd live or die... he clearly didn't choose that path. As I said, he DID continue to push Anakin to turn and save him, but it's 'cuz that's all he could do... he TRIED a last ditch attack while floored by Windu, using force lighting... Windu was just too strong and turned it back on him... then in the end Palpatine's life truly was in Anakin's hands, but only because he'd been so thoroughly thrashed by Mace.

Also, there's a whole lot of confusion over the notion of the Prophecy of the one...the prophecy states that the one will destroy the Sith and that is how there will be balance to the Force (yeah, it's weird how it's not really balance at all, just one side being eliminated). The whole root of this debate comes when Yoda makes his little statement about how the Jedi may have misinterpreted the prophecy. It's not a misinterpretation; they just didn't realize that it'd be a tragic path to get there. I believe that the statement is made after Anakin's already turned to the Dark Side. Of course when you see the person who is to fulfill the prophecy killing little kids in a surveillance video, your faith in the idea that he'll bring about an end to the greatest threat and evil in the galaxy will be a little shaken! But nonetheless the prophecy IS true, and is fulfilled when Anakin kills Palpatine and then dies himself.. there are no more Sith, and the balance eluded to in the prophecy is achieved.

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Originally Posted by Sepho

I think he became withered because it takes a certain amount of Force power and/or concentration to maintain the form he kept while maintaining his role as Chancellor Palpatine (not his "natural", dark side-influenced, Sith form), and while he was using the Force lightning, he just let himself go in order to concentrate on and lend more power to his lightning. Maybe.

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Nope, that was his natural form.. he was a human, just like Mace, Anakin and Obi Wan... you can never see his eyes when he's wearing his dark robe in the first two movies, but you can see his profile view and a frontal view of him several times throughout the first two movies, and it's clear that he doesn't have any deformities. I've attached a few such photos so you can see the difference... When deformed, Sidious' entire face droops, making his face much wider at the bottom and very wrinkly. You only see this post-Windu battle (the pic of Sidious with the lightsaber).

I see your points, FF Junkie. Thing was, it didn't look to me that Mace was directing the energy back at Sidious. It appeared like his lightsaber was absorbing the energy. And since Anakin did come in later, I can see your point about the manipulation. Sidious was actually losing. Question is, was he as bad off as he claimed to be when asking Anakin for help? It is obvious he is powerful, perhaps he could have gotten out of that situation, if nothing else, to turn into a draw against Mace. Instead, he further showed Anakin what he wanted Anakin to see, and thus turned Anakin to his side.

Anakin kills Darth Sidius the end. It is not then till balance is restored.
Difference between the Sith and the Jedi is that Jedi use the force, the Sith control (or are controlled by it's dark will whatever you care to think). So even with a few Sith they are more powerful than the Jedi and therefore distort the balance. That is how I know it anyway.

The Sith and the Jedi both use the Force. It comes from the difference in how they use it. The Sith use it with passionate emotions, and have no qualms about using anything they possibly can, which gives them a wider array of powers. A Jedi could use a Force choke, for example, but wouldnt, as it's considered taboo and wrong for them to do it.

I think Anakin brought about the balance and that Luke was the balance of the force. He wasn't like the old Jedi. The old good Jedis ignored their emotions and used the force in a way that was logical. The old bad Jedis used the force in a passionate way to bring about their will. Luke used both, in a way. Luke fought with his passion, but used his mind to control his passions. He balanced the force by using both sides of it. Other than Luke, Anakin and the Sith were the only to other Jedis, except maybe possibly Leiah. Anakin killed the sith, and himself pretty much, thus leaving the only Jedi Luke, who was a balanced Jedi. Anakin brought it out.

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Originally Posted by JAS4Yeshua

I see your points, FF Junkie. Thing was, it didn't look to me that Mace was directing the energy back at Sidious. It appeared like his lightsaber was absorbing the energy. And since Anakin did come in later, I can see your point about the manipulation. Sidious was actually losing. Question is, was he as bad off as he claimed to be when asking Anakin for help? It is obvious he is powerful, perhaps he could have gotten out of that situation, if nothing else, to turn into a draw against Mace. Instead, he further showed Anakin what he wanted Anakin to see, and thus turned Anakin to his side.

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Okay... think back to Episode 2 on this one... When Obi-Wan and Dooku are having it out. Dooku attempts to use lightning on him, but Kenobi just holds out his lightsaber and absorbs it. No emotion or signs of struggle or anything on his face..just the concentration needed to make sure he intercepts the blast... Now fast forward to the Windu/ Palpatine fight. When Palpatine is trying to use his force lighting on Mace, you see Windu's face full of struggle, and as you see this, you also see him push his lightsaber closer and closer to Palpatine... that's where we're supposed to see he's pushing the power back onto Palpatine. Plus, you see Palpatine becomming engulfed in the lightning. It's running over his entire body, you can see it in his face as he's being fried and distorted, just like you see it going through Vader in Episode 6 as he lifts Palpatine and kills him. Any other time the force lightning is used, it simply leaves the fingers of the ones that use it; thus it's not doubling back on them and causing them any damage. In this scene Lucas conveys, via the lightning engulfing/mutilating Palpatine and Windu forcing his sword closer and closer to Palpatine, that Windu is indeed turning his powers against him.
Thus, one could say that Mace truly was winning. And you could also argue that Sidious really was that weak by that point... I mean, if you'd been COOKED for all that time like he was, it'd take a lot more out of you than just all that water that'd evaporate. (Technically, the biggest threat'd be to any systems utilizing the sodium/potassium pump, as when the charges would be altered by the lightning energy things such as heart beat and other vital involuntary functions involving the nervous system would go to pot, but I won't bore anyone with the biology of that one :) )

One thing to think of in Episode 2 as well, Dooku wasn't as powerful as Sidious. He was powerful, yes, but perhaps the energy levels he put out wasn't at the strength of Sideous, which is why Mace had more of a struggle. That, and Mace was actually moving forward, which probably was more of a struggle than just Obi-Wan who stood his ground.

Besides, I'm not denying that he was weakened, all I'm saying is that Sidious probably made it appear worse than it was. He was losing, but I believe he still could have escaped, but was using the losing situation to his advantage.

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Originally Posted by theundeadhero

I think Anakin brought about the balance and that Luke was the balance of the force. He wasn't like the old Jedi. The old good Jedis ignored their emotions and used the force in a way that was logical. The old bad Jedis used the force in a passionate way to bring about their will. Luke used both, in a way. Luke fought with his passion, but used his mind to control his passions. He balanced the force by using both sides of it. Other than Luke, Anakin and the Sith were the only to other Jedis, except maybe possibly Leiah. Anakin killed the sith, and himself pretty much, thus leaving the only Jedi Luke, who was a balanced Jedi. Anakin brought it out.

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Before addressing all of this, I'll first post a direct portion of the history of the Jedi and Sith, as evidence of where my argument stems from. This is taken directly from S u p e r s h a d o w . c o m, which I'm certain most Star Wars fans know all about. The guy who runs this site is one of Lucas' buds, and he collaborated with Lucas in coming up with all information contained therein. He's also the guy who Lucas gave permission to post the official episode 3 script over a month before the movie was released. Here it is:

".....Sadly, in Sinis’ lifetime, the Dark Jedi were created by a rogue Jedi named Zooti Frugan. Dark Jedi could act as free agents, choosing any color of light saber they could create and even training themselves without a master. These Dark Jedi studied both sides of the Force, but emphasized the dark side or the Bogan. With the rebellion of Zooti Froogan and others, the Jedi Council under Kaja Sinis saw that an imbalance had been created, so the practice of studying the dark side was disbanded. Nonetheless, the Dark Jedi were already flourishing.

The Sith were conquered by Dark Jedi who adopted their form of magic in Sinis’ lifetime. These Jedi called themselves Sith Lords. The first known Sith Lord of recorded history was Darth Scarz. In imitation of the Jedi Holocron, the Sith made their own holocron, the Sith Holocron. The tension between the two sides eventually came to a head at the Battle of Omicras, the first major conflict between the Sith and Jedi. Nonetheless, the Sith Lords remained and continued to grow the Sith Order including non-Sith species in their Order, as one Sith Dynasty succeeded another."

So you see this brief portion can clear up a lot of debates we've been having on here. For starters, it clearly states that the imbalance in the force came about once people started to use it for evil purposes. There were no Dark Jedi and no Sith in the beginning. All Jedi were trained in both the light and dark side of the force. However, once a number of them started to overuse the dark side and turned evil, acting selfishly rather than selflessly, the imbalance came about. Thus, the balance would only come about again once the force were only used for good. This logically means that the Sith must be destroyed, as they use the force for selfish purposes.

Interestingly enough, based on this I could definitely see your point about Luke being the balance of the force, as he would represent the traditional Jedi, the way the Jedi originally were, being able to use both sides of the force for good.

This excerpt also briefly covers the origin of the Sith. There were always a lot of them, but their in-fighting lead Darth Bane to come up with the rule of two, which is still in place when Anakin brings the Sith to an end. However, just because the Sith have been defeated doesn't mean that the evil Jedi are done for as well, as there are still Dark Jedi in the universe. I won't really get into more of it here, as it's quite lengthy. It's a good read though, for anyone interested.

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Originally Posted by JAS4Yeshua

One thing to think of in Episode 2 as well, Dooku wasn't as powerful as Sidious. He was powerful, yes, but perhaps the energy levels he put out wasn't at the strength of Sideous, which is why Mace had more of a struggle. That, and Mace was actually moving forward, which probably was more of a struggle than just Obi-Wan who stood his ground.

Besides, I'm not denying that he was weakened, all I'm saying is that Sidious probably made it appear worse than it was. He was losing, but I believe he still could have escaped, but was using the losing situation to his advantage.

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True... Sidious was the most powerful force user in the galaxy at the time, and he may well have been overexaggerating a bit, but the fact that his very powers were being turned against him still can't be denied if you watch the movie closely. That is what leads to Windu's struggling moreso than anything, in my opinion.

Edit by Kishi: Stop double-posting.

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Interestingly enough, based on this I could definitely see your point about Luke being the balance of the force, as he would represent the traditional Jedi, the way the Jedi originally were, being able to use both sides of the force for good.

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Exactly my point . Neither the good or bad Jedi were balanced at the time of Anakin. Only after Luke were the Jedi balanced again.