Printable View
I believe that Ultimecia wanted to compress ALL of time, so yes, all those events would be in the 'set'.
As for your theory, I can agree fine with everything you seem to have ended up with now quite fine(assuming I understand you correctly). All I didn't see was how the heck you reached the assumption that the year 2500 will also feel the effect...
Thatīs irrelevant anyway.Itīs based on the assumption that time passes on TC.
But forget it.
I think I remember the game saying she wanna to compress all of time.Thatīs great.
Now I will reveal the purpose of this thread.
If all of time were compressed (the magic was executed at some time,no matter)
it means all eras feels it and not only era B (see the meaning some replies earlier).
No matter when Ultimecia activates the magic THE WORLD OF FF8 WAS ALLWAYS A TIME COMPRESSED WORLD.
Ít didnīt matter if time compression is a progressive process because:
1-Let me give an example.
Lets suppose we have two eras C and D.And two instances of the progression of time compression a and b.b>a and D>C.b is the instance where time is fully compressed.
WE also have D-C =b-a.
Eras C and D will evolve with time.When time goes from a to b Era D will not be D anymore but will be an era E.
Should we conclude that time compression will not be feel on era D?
No,because era C will become era D.Of course there isnīt any instance greater than b because time stops but i showed it didnīt matter because there are always eras before others.One can wonder though if this means that there is many states of present .One in which era D feels time compression and another in which it didnīt feel.But...
2-It didnīt make sense to say that all eras get compressed to a "particular time"
If all times get compressed it means they get compressed without a time referencial.
They just get compressed.If all times get compressed (sucked like a whirl of water) to 1000 they also get compressed to 1630 or any other time.And...
3-You canīt compress an infinite time line in a finite time line.
If you take a line segment and reduce it you can do it in a finite time.
But not an infinite line.
So I conclude there isnīt any progression in time compression.
Ultimecia just compress time instantly.It was a magical and instantaneous change of state.
Definitely.Quote:
If all of time were compressed (the magic was executed at some time,no matter) it means all eras feels it and not only era B (see the meaning some replies earlier).
Not entirely sure I understand everything you're saying here. Yes, C will become D, but era D will always be era D. Well, I guess that depends if you think TC limits itself to era D exactly, or if you're talking about all of time being compressed.Quote:
1-Let me give an example.
Lets suppose we have two eras C and D.And two instances of the progression of time compression a and b.b>a and D>C.b is the instance where time is fully compressed.
WE also have D-C =b-a.
Eras C and D will evolve with time.When time goes from a to b Era D will not be D anymore but will be an era E.
Should we conclude that time compression will not be feel on era D?
No,because era C will become era D.Of course there isnīt any instance greater than b because time stops but i showed it didnīt matter because there are always eras before others.One can wonder though if this means that there is many states of present .One in which era D feels time compression and another in which it didnīt feel.But...
And it also depends on whether or not you think time is static or dynamic. Too many "if's" for me to be able to understand your conclusions, so you'll have to go into greater detail here.
If the line of time were infinite then it wouldn't make sense, true. If it's finite, it does make sense to have a referencial point(namely the point where it is cast) all until time is fully compressed, because then the referencial point would be the same as every other point on the entire line of time.Quote:
2-It didnīt make sense to say that all eras get compressed to a "particular time"
If all times get compressed it means they get compressed without a time referencial.
They just get compressed.If all times get compressed (sucked like a whirl of water) to 1000 they also get compressed to 1630 or any other time.And...
True. Although, I wonder what would happen if TC moved at an infinitely fast speed? Would the infinities cancel each other out making it possible? Too tired to think it through now though...Quote:
3-You canīt compress an infinite time line in a finite time line.
If you take a line segment and reduce it you can do it in a finite time.
But not an infinite line.
Of course we don't know if the line of time is finite or infinite so no point using that factor in arguments.
I'm sorry, but your conclusion is impossible. As I quoted earlier, we are told that no one but Ultimecia can live in TC, but if TC was an instantanous event, it would be impossible to play the game, as Squall and co would be inside a fully time compressed world already from the start of the game.Quote:
So I conclude there isnīt any progression in time compression.
Ultimecia just compress time instantly.It was a magical and instantaneous change of state.
Since this is obviously not the case, we can conclude that TC works at a finite speed, and is never fully completed.
Sir Bahamut,I am not saying that era C was on instance a and D on instance b.
I am saying this:
a C%D
b D%E fully compressed
b D%E fully compressed
.
.
.
No because if Tc is cast at J and if J is compressed with K then K is compressed with J so itīs relevant where time is sucked.Quote:
If the line of time were infinite then it wouldn't make sense, true. If it's finite, it does make sense to have a referencial point(namely the point where it is cast) all until time is fully compressed, because then the referencial point would be the same as every other point on the entire line of time.
This is not the same as to reduce a line segment to a point because here you are not performing "space compression".
In Space compression all coordinates become compressed at one .But this is not what happens when you reduce a line segment.You are just deleting the points whose coordenate are not a certain(x,y).
In the Time compression context this would be equivalent to delete all times with the exception of the one in which TC is cast.That way time would be static forever(past and future).Of course this is not Time Compression.In TC all eras are there.
And finally:
To create TC instantaneously is the same as to made it progress with infinite velocity isnt it?
Sad Ultimecia hadnīt realized she canīt complete TC with finite speed.She is really stupid.(Or maybe not).Quote:
Since this is obviously not the case, we can conclude that TC works at a finite speed, and is never fully completed.
This is exactly the final conclusion.Quote:
I'm sorry, but your conclusion is impossible. As I quoted earlier, we are told that no one but Ultimecia can live in TC, but if TC was an instantanous event, it would be impossible to play the game, as Squall and co would be inside a fully time compressed world already from the start of the game.
Axiom1-Ultimecia wanna to compress all time.
Conclusion1-FF8 world is time compressed.
Conclusion2(or conclusion of conclusion)-Seed can also live on TC along with human beings.
Axiom2-Only Ultimecia can live on TC
Conclusion1:FF8 world is not time compressed.
Conclusion2(or conclusion of conclusion 1):Ultimecia cannot compress all times
So either Axiom 1 is thruth or Axiom 2 is thruth .Not both.
That's what I said: in a finite line, having a referencial point(namely the point where TC is cast) is relevant, ALL UNTIL TC IS COMPLETE because when that happens, the referencial point is the same point as every other point in time.Quote:
No because if Tc is cast at J and if J is compressed with K then K is compressed with J so itīs relevant where time is sucked.
As for the rest of this point, you must have misunderstood me, or gotten confused. I have always said that TC combines all era into one era, not that you delete all times but the referencial point. And no one brought up "space compression" either...
Yes.Quote:
To create TC instantaneously is the same as to made it progress with infinite velocity isnt it?
She CAN complete it if the line of time is a finite line. However, since we don't know if it is finite or infinite, and there's no way of knowing either, it's pointless to call her stupid or not.Quote:
Sad Ultimecia hadnīt realized she canīt complete TC with finite speed.She is really stupid.(Or maybe not).
Well, clearly Axiom 2 is correct here, since the game tells us quite specifically that no one but Ultimecia can live in TC. But your conclusion 2 in Axiom 2 isn't correct. The correct conclusion would be:Quote:
This is exactly the final conclusion.
Axiom1-Ultimecia wanna to compress all time.
Conclusion1-FF8 world is time compressed.
Conclusion2(or conclusion of conclusion)-Seed can also live on TC along with human beings.
Axiom2-Only Ultimecia can live on TC
Conclusion1:FF8 world is not time compressed.
Conclusion2(or conclusion of conclusion 1):Ultimecia cannot compress all times
So either Axiom 1 is thruth or Axiom 2 is thruth .Not both.
Ultimecia is not able to compress time.
Wheter there is a referencial point or not to TC thatīs a matter of interpretation.
But thatīs irrelevant for the matter.
Sir Bahamut,the game says Ulti wanna to compress all times.Whatīs your definition of "all times"?A finite line or infinite?
"All times" is simply all of the line of time, regardless of it's length.
I just want to hop in here and point out that all time definitely didn't compress at once. Aside from the fact that people other than Ultimecia were still present when SeeD confronts her, she says herself that it wasn't finished. "The world was on the brink of that ever elusive Time Compression." The world was on the brink, not already there. She was sitting around waiting for it to finish.
Thanks, Squall, but I already mentioned that fact more than once. ;)
Yeah, but the last couple of times you only mentioned that others aside from Ultimecia were still present and I wasn't sure if Future had noted the point about Ultimecia's statement earlier. I just wanted to jump in there to emphasise it. Sorry if it looked like I didn't think you'd make note of that. I know you wouldn't forget that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
Thanks,Squall of SeeD.We should conclude then that the lenght of time compression is finite.It made point 2 and 3 irrelevant.
But look at point 1.
I already explained that it didnīt matter .
The set of time compressed eras should encompass the era in which she starts time conmpression (which is obviously before Adell chase Ellone.Better,before Adel was possessed.) ,the era in which Squall had defeated Adel and Ultiīs time.Letīs call them era A,B and C respectively.
While the process of compression is happening,time passes equaly on these three eras (and the ones in between).Lets say when she completed the process C is not C anymore but evolved to a later era D in which D-C=C-B. You can argue that time was never fully compressed in C but in D.True and wrong.By that time B evolved to B+(D-C)=B+(C-B)=C so it was fully compressed.
This seems like a paradox.Time is fully compressed at C and not.
The paradox is solved if we consider that there are diferent states of
present.
But a state canīt evolve continualy to another.And the game implies that time compression is compression of different eras from the same state of present(the word "states of present" in the tutorial refers to different eras as present so the meaning is different from mine).
If the range of times compressed at the beggining of TC is from a to b and the time to complete the compression is t then the range of times fully compressed is from a+t to b+t.
Considering the time it takes between Squall defeating Adel and reaching Ultiīs time and a little more (the sorceress is not that patient of course.She wanna to compress time quickly) I can say t is not 17 years but a few hours.
So time is fully compressed atleast between [era A and a few hours] and [era C and a few hours] .Of course the broad of time compression can not be more little than that but it can be bigger.