what do you think of this lady?

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Originally Posted by Dudius

Think this. If they did not have oil, would we be there? No. It is about the oil. Other than that, why the hell would we try and take control of it in the first place? It's not really the greatest place to live in or visit.

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Oh lord, don't tell me some peopel still hold to the oil argument? If we wanted oil, we'd have made peace with Saddam and brushed his atrocities under the rug. That'd have been a far more guaranteed, cheaper, faster, safer way of getting Iraq's oil.

eest: In truth, I've not fully looked into what Bush and his administration did with regards to their intelligence, but I was assuming seeing as I saw no proof of lying in the anti-American British press, that there was none. Apologies, point withdrawn. On another note, voting another person in would have been far, far better, but Badnarok never stood much chance.

hah, libertarian candidate.

don't blame me, I voted for Dean in the primary.

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Originally Posted by Dudius

Think this. If they did not have oil, would we be there? No. It is about the oil. Other than that, why the hell would we try and take control of it in the first place? It's not really the greatest place to live in or visit.

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Well I was going to quote a post I made awhile ago.. but well can't find it. So...

There are military/political stragetic reasons for going to Iraq. It could easily have been a military target.

What do I think of that lady?

Crackpot...

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Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF

If we wanted oil, we'd have made peace with Saddam and brushed his atrocities under the rug. That'd have been a far more guaranteed, cheaper, faster, safer way of getting Iraq's oil.

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Made peace with him? We put him in there :) We had already lost peace with him.

What else are we in there for then? To break up the civil war? To end the war on terror? Nah those were all excuses just to get in there. Why do you think the troops don't know what the hell is going on? They know what's going on in the war, but they don't the purpose. Maybe it's because the purpose in not good enough to sacrifice all those lives.

Tell me what the "core" of the military/political reasons. What else does Iraq have to offer? Fine fabrics? Maybe, huh...

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Originally Posted by Dudius

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Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF

If we wanted oil, we'd have made peace with Saddam and brushed his atrocities under the rug. That'd have been a far more guaranteed, cheaper, faster, safer way of getting Iraq's oil.

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Made peace with him? We put him in there :) We had already lost peace with him.

What else are we in there for then? To break up the civil war? To end the war on terror? Nah those were all excuses just to get in there. Why do you think the troops don't know what the hell is going on? They know what's going on in the war, but they don't the purpose. Maybe it's because the purpose in not good enough to sacrifice all those lives.

Tell me what the "core" of the military/political reasons. What else does Iraq have to offer? Fine fabrics? Maybe, huh...

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Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF

If we wanted oil, we'd have made peace with Saddam and brushed his atrocities under the rug. That'd have been a far more guaranteed, cheaper, faster, safer way of getting Iraq's oil.

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Originally Posted by eestlinc

don't blame me, I voted for Dean in the primary.

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Ah, fair enough. He was better than Kerry IMO, but it looks like you guys prefer a wall of chin to a person with charisma.

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Originally Posted by eestlinc

I think it's good that she's out there in Crawford, TX serving as a constant reminder that there is a real world in America even if W wants to live in his own fantasy land where only the poor have to sacrifice, vacations last months, and Iraq is going swimmingly.

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But she isn't doing that. She's doing this protest (or was, until today. She went back to LA today because her mother is in the hospital), but how on earth is she surviving? How can she be an example of the real world when most people who are losing their sons and daughters can't go sit out in front of the president's ranch for a month?

I think she's an example of arrogance. She claims that she is doing this so no one else's son or daughter or husband or wife or father/mother/cousin/sister/brother etc dies, but if that's true, why wasn't she doing it before?

I agree with everything else you say about the war, don't get me wrong on that point. And I agree with what you say about Bush living in lala land. I just don't think there's anything that merits any attention whatsoever to her; let alone such a huge response.

Also, I think it's high time Americans stopped looking for someone to rally behind and started thinking, and more importantly feeling for themselves, but I know that's unrealistic and I've been reading way too much of A Prayer for Owen Meany and listening to too much damn hippie music.

I think we all got in this mess from too much feeling and not enough thinking.

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Originally Posted by Dudius

Tell me what the "core" of the military/political reasons. What else does Iraq have to offer? Fine fabrics? Maybe, huh...

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Well it ain't exaclty tailored to the question but read through and connect it-

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Originally Posted by ShunNakamura

And there were reasons to attack Iraq over other targets. My disaggrement with the war is more to deal with timing and handling rather then where and whether it happened.

-Iraq was weak

good way to stretch our military muscles, not to mention we could aviod the mass civilian casalties that seem to occur in bigger wars.

However if we were just looking for a weak country ot attack, well africa also could use the help we are delievering to the Iraqi's, perhaps moreso.

-Iraq is well placed.

Iraq's location is good for future assults into the countries that abuse thier peoples(after all the US should focus on Helping people.. so we are). Africa would be well placed only to help other Africans, Iraq is in the middle, we can help the ME and the Africans.. imagine that.

-Sadam is well known.

This helps get our message accross. Talking out a ruler who is well known for his abuse and atrocities will tell everyone that we mean buisness. Afterall, when you think abusive ruler many people would have said Sadam or Iraq a while ago... or at least at my school that is what happened.



All are good reason for Iraq.

Korea isn't well placed, even if they had publicity before the war. However they also may have caused massive casulties... which wouldn't be good. so Iraq was an obvious choice..

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Also as another note: Even if we took all of Iraq's oil... we wouldn't get much better prices or more gas out on the market. There are things called refineries.. and they are a large limiting factor in this game. We only have so many. And from my reading it is hard and expensive to get new ones up. Enviromental regulations apparently come down really hard on refineries. It is true that crude oil prices play apart but when you don't have the production ability it don't really matter how much you get. I have also read that many refineries are still using antiquated equipment(not sure why but meh) which prolly don't add to well to the equation.

I agree.. I think we need to look at domestic soruces.. tap it, pump it, fill it, burn it..

I wonder why we gave up the oil struggle in the first place?

Bipper

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Originally Posted by fire_of_avalon

But she isn't doing that. She's doing this protest (or was, until today. She went back to LA today because her mother is in the hospital), but how on earth is she surviving? How can she be an example of the real world when most people who are losing their sons and daughters can't go sit out in front of the president's ranch for a month?

I think she's an example of arrogance. She claims that she is doing this so no one else's son or daughter or husband or wife or father/mother/cousin/sister/brother etc dies, but if that's true, why wasn't she doing it before?

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She just wanted to go talk to the President, and then when he wouldn't see her she decided to stay put. Our whole society of obsession decided to make a huge deal out of it. Basically she was just exercising her right to free speech through nonviolent protest. That should be applauded, not derided.

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Originally Posted by eestlinc

hah, libertarian candidate.

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Hey, what's wrong with that? :p

Oh, and this woman seems kind of insincere. As others have pointed out, why didn't she start protesting beforehand? I don't like Bush and can't wait until he's out, but this doesn't really deserve much consideration.

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Originally Posted by eestlinc

Basically she was just exercising her right to free speech through nonviolent protest. That should be applauded, not derided.

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Just because she's exercising a right doesn't make it noble or admirable. Would you applaud a Klan rally? Or a GOP convention?

Doc makes a good point. eest's comment logically amounts to "she's doing something not illegal, and therefore should be applauded for it."

If you don't see the difference between protesting a continued war and holding a Klan rally then you have some serious issues. I know both you guys do, and you're just using rhetoric to try to shoot down my argument.

All of you make it sound like protest is any easy act taken up by opportunists. What does Cindy Sheehan have to gain out of this? Why do you think she or anyone would take up such a protest under false pretenses? It takes a lot more balls to actually go out and protest, especially as one person, than it does to write crap on the internet.

Her protest has become larger than one woman's loss of her son. It's tapped deep into the growing anxiety of both the war and the inept execution of it by our leaders.