Child discipline

I did agree that parenting is mostly trial and error, but it should be an educated trial and error, not some stab in the dark based on some notion that it's your "sacred right" to refuse to educate yourself. You're right, there is no required classes for becoming a parent, but that doesn't mean they're anything but a great idea.

When I grow up I want to be a mother. That's it. That's all I ever wanted to be. All my friends are going to college and getting degrees for jobs they want to get, and so am I. I'm going to school to do my very best to prepare myself to be a parent. I know how to take care of babies; I took care of eight at once everyday at my last job, along with children up to the age of twelve. Someone could make a point that "you can never be prepared to be a parent," and I wouldn't dream of arguing against that, but it doesn't mean I'm not going to do my best to prepare myself to do more than just "keep my kids alive until they're off to college."

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Originally Posted by ShlupQuack

I would have to see some credible thing saying a dog can easily have the vocabulary of an average three-year-old. That's a fairly broad statement, considering that a three-year-old's speaking vocabularly is only a fraction of their comprehension, and hard to believe in anycase. I'm not saying you're lying or anything, but I just cannot bring myself to believe that without some credible source.

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Heh no problem.. when I first saw it I didn't believe it either. Though I may have been a bit liberal with the use of the word "easily". I wasn't trying to imply the majority could have it.. only that it isn't super hard to teach them to have it. You just have to raise them that way. You reap what you sow afterall. I originally saw it on animal planet years ago.. they were demonstrating the dog's vocabulary. At the time I think it had 300-500 words that it knew and understood. They could even ask it questions and get it to respond with a serious of barks(one for yes, two for no or some such). I did some research at the time(I will try to refind it for ya) and the research at least implied that this wasn't an overly uncommon occurance.

hmm.. I wonder if I got the number of words wrong. I don't remember the exact number I just recall them anouncing that it was the same as an average 3 year old human child.. that is all I am 100% sure off.. I may be mixing up some articles I read.. the bark answer may have been a wolf or something.... grr. Well here goes my research train.


Edit- I think have found what I saw.. looks like I even got the channel wrong.. heh my memory must be bad... looks like it was about 200 words. Though this still doesn't seem right.. I don't think what I saw was a border collie. .. ah well. This will do till I get the energy and pain resistance to look some more.

anyways Here is the link. Be warned you need a .pdf reader.

Alright first off I didn't read all the thread cause I got impatient to respond.

I don't think that spanking should be used because with a kid (yes this is based on how I've been brought up and how friends have been brought up) the objective in my eyes is to create an atmosphere where people want to be kind to eachother. And I think spanking sets up the image that violence (admittedly people aren't talking about abuse but it still is using violence) is the way to respond to a problem. I'm not to sure about kids from 0-4 but after that they can definitely understand what you're talking about. Kids are very impressionable and if you bring them up in an atmosphere where they can have fun but really try to be nice, really care about others. Then when they see a problem they'll try to fix it by seeing people's point of view not hitting them. Hitting a kid makes them angry not understanding, they won't do it because of the punishment not because the thing itself is bad. People think of kids as not thinking much, but the way imo to get them to not do bad things is to make them understand through discussion, that what they're doing is wrong and why. Now there are bad cases btu nurture means a lot, most people I know like that get practically no respect from parents and have very little respect for them in return. Now I live in liberal massachusetts but every time I watch kids getting hit I see one of a few immediate results. They rebel in one of two ways (there are lots of other cases but these are the ones I see most commonly):
1.They fight back and get hit more than maybe stop angrily- this clearly just creates anger and doesn't do much else.
2.They stop but are really pissed at their parents.
Something I have strangely never ever seen is:
3. The kid saying sorry with a thankful expression towards the parents goodness in showing him what is right.
Oh yeah one last thing to mention:
4.They cry and are called a wimp.

Violence leads to violence and anger in most cases.

The most common argument I hear usually (thank goodness I haven't heard it here) is that it toughens them up. Which I utterly disagree with as it leads to anger not strength. This sounds utopian but kids should grow up happy, snit-fits happen but they should enjoy themselves and grow up in an environment where there are guidelines but they can learn for themselves, think and speak for themselves.

That's what I think. And I don't think it's caused by pain.

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Originally Posted by ShlupQuack

I did agree that parenting is mostly trial and error, but it should be an educated trial and error, not some stab in the dark based on some notion that it's your "sacred right" to refuse to educate yourself. You're right, there is no required classes for becoming a parent, but that doesn't mean they're anything but a great idea.

When I grow up I want to be a mother. That's it. That's all I ever wanted to be. All my friends are going to college and getting degrees for jobs they want to get, and so am I. I'm going to school to do my very best to prepare myself to be a parent. I know how to take care of babies; I took care of eight at once everyday at my last job, along with children up to the age of twelve. Someone could make a point that "you can never be prepared to be a parent," and I wouldn't dream of arguing against that, but it doesn't mean I'm not going to do my best to prepare myself to do more than just "keep my kids alive until they're off to college."

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Yeah parenting should always be passed down through the generations.

Though it's impressive how many words a dog can learn, that article did serve to emphasize that a dog's language capacity is hugely different from a child's, especially the fourth page. So, please, don't raise your children like a dog. xP

Well I never did mean exactly.. I do realize that we are different. What I was trying to get accross was that I would use many of the same startegies(though modified) for when the child is still very young.

when i was 6 years old, I threw a fit in a store because I couldnt get the toy I wanted. My mom, took me out to the car, took off her slipper and spanked me really hard. I never, EVER threw a fit again. When I was a teenager my punishment was raking the leaves outside from literally sunup to sundown during the summer. That is worst than any beating I ever got LOL! I didn't mind that, when I was a little kid I desreved every spanking I ever got.
What I didn't like was getting hit in grade school in Louisiana back in the 70's. When I was in 3rd grade in 1975 I got hit with a yardstick from writing in print instead of cursive. And nothing like getting spankings in the principals office for talking too much! Getting hit and spanked in grade school served no purpose in my opinion.

I have a theory that kids that would get disciplined by teachers would have no affect on them what so ever but it would affect them if it is from there parents, because when kids get disciplined from there parents they see it as if they failed or betrayed there parents somehow but when they get disciplined by a teacher it has no affect on them because they feel nothing for the teachers. Ofcourse this would only count for kids of a certain age and above, something like 10-11+.

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Originally Posted by ISRviper

I have a theory that kids that would get disciplined by teachers would have no affect on them what so ever but it would affect them if it is from there parents, because when kids get disciplined from there parents they see it as if they failed or betrayed there parents somehow but when they get disciplined by a teacher it has no affect on them because they feel nothing for the teachers. Ofcourse this would only count for kids of a certain age and above, something like 10-11+.

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Or they would feel like their parents betrayed them, if they were brought up being hit not told and taught why they shouldn't do it then why whould they see fault in what they did (I'm not talking about really obviously stupid things) hitting them in a lot of cases would make them feel betrayed by the parent not the other way round.

And...

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If I had a kid(kinda creepy cuz I AM A KID ROFL)
I would have a no bs rule
No whineing
annoying me
no begging for stuff
if you scream you get a bandana around your mouth

As you can tell im easily annoyed.It's hard enough having a small dog.If i heard a child crying I would go insane.

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Never ever ever have a kid in that case.

I just thought about one thing I would have to change in my child raising plan. My dog is spoiled rotten. Definately should avoid that. Dang the fine line.

Be firm yet giving. That is an oxymoron!

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Originally Posted by FFX_fanatiq

If I had a kid(kinda creepy cuz I AM A KID ROFL)
I would have a no bs rule
No whineing
annoying me
no begging for stuff
if you scream you get a bandana around your mouth

As you can tell im easily annoyed.It's hard enough having a small dog.If i heard a child crying I would go insane.

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I'm sure you parents said that to when they were kids... and they still had you.

I honestly think that children and parents have an unspoken bond. When you punish your child, keep that bond in mind. I know its hard to think of other people than yourself all the time, but do what you need to to raise the kid.

I think its rude that some people are judging the parental compantencies of others. To me, most of psycology is VERY loose guidelines. There may be a norm, but I have known plenty of people who got the kicked outta them as kids, and they are amoung some of the most decent people to be around. I also know others who should have been kicked a few times.
It all verries by individuals; which children are. Every rule, every punishment should vary from child to child. Consistancy would be great if we really were just psycoogical robots, but we are each unique - and we would grow differenly in different upbringings.

Bipper

Yes, you can grow up to be a good person if you've have the crap beat out of you. But I wouldn't say that's a reflection of the parenting technique (or lack thereof), but a reflection of the resiliency of the child. A lot of data has been collected in this area, and there are few shades of grey (not none, but few): hitting your child is bad.

Now I'll probably give my one or two year old a swat on the butt to get their attention, followed by a firm "no" or whatever's appropriate, but that's as far as I think physical punishment should ever go.

And when I say "consistancy" I mean towards that one child; not towards all children. You should vary your parenting based on the child, but that doesn't mean you should bring hitting into the mix. Maybe the child will grow up just fine; that happens. But you can't predict that. If it works at the time, you can say "Well, it's working," but you can't predict how that will affect them in the long run. You could say that about anything in parenting, but the long-term affects of physical punishment are almost invariably negative.

Lots of good points shlup, I must say I agree with what you have said. i do think that sometimes a swat on the but was not enough. Children are capable of some awful things, and sometimes it comes down to a good old spanking.

I have been spanked only a few times, but when I remember what they were for, I am sure i deserved it :D (My wife can be mean :love: ) But I do agree it very much vomes down to the individual child.

I personally think that more issues come from other types of dicipline than physical spanking/slapping/beating. I think sticking a child in timeout in a public place is bad, or yelling at the child and calling them naughty repeatedly. I would say that sticking a kid in the corner, leads other kids to harrass them while they are there, and no offence to super nanny/nanny 911 but I don't put much stock in that show.

I honestley think the best thing you can do for your kids is simply set a good example. I let a swear word fly out of my mouth when I stepped on a thumb tack a few months back, Kylie said I was naughty so I appologized; ever since - she has been quick to appologize to most of her wrong doings! :)

Bipper

It's true that there are bad things you can do as a parent other than hit your child, but I don't think that makes spankings an acceptable thing. I think that, after what I feel is a sufficient amount of time studying the data on the topic, it's just not okay. And if you disagree I trust that you, personally, don't disagree to an extent I would find disturbing or anything, so I we'll just have to agree to disagree. :)

And, yeah, the best thing you can do is set a good example. "Do as I say not as I do" does not ever, ever work. Just ask my dad. xP