lowering the drinking age to 17.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

First of all, trying to raise the age to fight in the military is idiotic. If one can vote, they can support what they vote for. The age to enlist is just fine like it is. By the way, you can't enlist when you're 17 unless you have permission from parents, so that argument is moot anyway.

I can see the logic in arguing that if people are old enough to be in the military, they're old enough to drink. However, you've also got to consider that serving in the military reflects a certain amount of honor and responsibility, a responsibility and maturity that quite frankly usually aren't present in the typical 18-year-old. So I can understand being legally able to drink if you ARE in the military, but there are even more arguments to be made against the legal drinking age bring brought down to 18 across the board.

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Fail.

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Being in the military does not make you honorable.

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No, not necessarily hounourable, but certainly more responsible, capable and able. It makes a stronger person out of you, as do many other harsh experiences that make you deal with a harsh reality and harsh conditions.

Anyway, 'drinking age' is a stupid idea and a stupid term. Here, the law states teens can't buy alcohol nor cigarettes - but who's stopping them from drinking and\or smoking? You go to parties, and you've got 14 year-old kids asking you to buy them a drink... they give you money, and you go to the bar and buy them one, if you're an arse. Or, you smack them on the face and tell them bed-time was hours ago, if you're an honest human-being. :)

Well, the drinking age is 18 over here. So I see no reason to change it.

I'll be 18 in January. So I don't care.

Lowering the drinking age? Yeah, right. Where's the fun in drinking then? Seriously, that would be a big mistake. Now, raising the age to join the military? Why stop at 21?

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Originally Posted by Velld Ragnarok

Lowering the drinking age is a horrible idea. Doing so would mean that highschool kids would be drunk while at school. More, younger kids would be drinking illegally. And As stated above more accidents would be happening with all those drivers ed. fresh drivers.

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Well, I'm already drunk at school sometimes...

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Originally Posted by nik0tine

Being in the military does not make you honorable.

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Nobody said that serving in the military makes you honorable. I pointed out that it's usually the more honorable, responsible, mature, whatever young men that join the military. Men with pride, education, plans for the future, etc. I wouldn't even say it's so much honor as responsibility. It's not like soldiers are normal people with guns and that's the only difference. All too many people don't realize this.

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Originally Posted by Autumn Rain

I think most 18-year olds lack the maturity be a responcible soldier. Note I said most, not all.

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That's why most 18-year-olds aren't soldiers.

And DMKA, as usual, speaks his mind. Which is a failure. (Or lack thereof, rather.)

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

First of all, trying to raise the age to fight in the military is idiotic. If one can vote, they can support what they vote for. The age to enlist is just fine like it is. By the way, you can't enlist when you're 17 unless you have permission from parents, so that argument is moot anyway.

I can see the logic in arguing that if people are old enough to be in the military, they're old enough to drink. However, you've also got to consider that serving in the military reflects a certain amount of honor and responsibility, a responsibility and maturity that quite frankly usually aren't present in the typical 18-year-old. So I can understand being legally able to drink if you ARE in the military, but there are even more arguments to be made against the legal drinking age bring brought down to 18 across the board.

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That's ridiculous. Joining the military does not show either maturity or a sense of responsibility. Most younger people who join the military are high-shool drop outs who choose the military because they basically can't be bothered with what they find to be work. I'm not saying that training in an army isn't hard enough work, it's them. "You get to run about and shoot brown people! And, they pay for everything. Where's the work in that?" Maturity? If anything it's immaturity. Why would you want to join that, when the most exciting thing that could happen is your own or another's death?
And responsibility? The half of them are wasters who are trying to escape exactly that! Not everybody, I'm not saying that, but notice when you're at school and they want to talk about careers, the only guy who says they want to be in the army is the lazy, little thicko who just chose to cook crap and run about a field four times a week for his standard grades? The responsible, mature 18 year old doesn't join the army. He gets the good job he wants and a life. And besides, it's not just the young guys, it's a lot of people in the army. Because where's the maturity in learning to shoot people on order?
Timothy McVeigh was in the army. In fact, he was a decorated seargant. That proves that being in the army doesn't mean you are, or make you, a responsible person.

Actually, if you drop out of high school, you can't join the military. And if you enlist before you graduate, you can only do so on the premise that you will graduate. If you don't, you get kicked out of the military. Pretty simple. Because you lied to get in. False enlistment. So there goes that genius idea. Most younger people who join the military do it not because they can't find a job (as it usually takes a couple months to get in anyway), but because they wish to continue their education and broaden their experiences, to put themselves at a higher demand on the job market. As in, people with military experience are usually more likely to get hired than people without it, with otherwise equal qualifications.

As for "you get to run around and shoot people", you show your ignorance of military. Most people in the military don't want to go to war (or didn't for a long while, until this latest conflict). In fact, if they DO go to war, most of the jobs in the military would not actually be involved in combat, especially direct confrontation. Even the soldiers in a Combat MOS, like, say Combat Engineering, like myself, or Infantry, et cetra, don't really WANT to be in combat. It's not some high for us, like playing a game or something. It's something most civilians wouldn't have the first clue about understanding -- I'm not trying to patronize or anything, but it's the truth, and soldiers know it.

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Originally Posted by ShunNakamura

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Originally Posted by Hawkeye

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Originally Posted by nik0tine

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Originally Posted by Dr Unne

I agree, they should raise the age of eligibility for armed service to 21.

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Looks like there isn't much of an argument... seeing as how I aggree as well.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

As for "you get to run around and shoot people", you show your ignorance of military. Most people in the military don't want to go to war (or didn't for a long while, until this latest conflict). In fact, if they DO go to war, most of the jobs in the military would not actually be involved in combat, especially direct confrontation. Even the soldiers in a Combat MOS, like, say Combat Engineering, like myself, or Infantry, et cetra, don't really WANT to be in combat. It's not some high for us, like playing a game or something. It's something most civilians wouldn't have the first clue about understanding -- I'm not trying to patronize or anything, but it's the truth, and soldiers know it.

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I wasn't criticising the people in the military, I was critiscising the idea of training people to kill. That kind of stupidity just ends up with a mess. Look at McVeigh...
Anyway, many people do join the military because they can't find work. Maybe not everywhere, but in many places. Like Flint, Michingan. Watch Farenheight 911, that explains it.

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As for "you get to run around and shoot people", you show your ignorance of military.

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I wasn't saying that this is the way that all soldiers think, although some do, I meant that I hate the fact that stupid teenagers and republicans spew this rubbish. I certainly wasn't saying that's the way it is, but that's what some teenagers interested in joining the military do. They think it'll be an easy job, good pay for their situation and a laugh. Though some will take it seriously, yes. And the republicans? it's what they make of it. Good fun shooting foreiners, I suppose that's what they consider it to be.

And it's not like playing a game. There would be aliens or nasis or space-mutants or alien-nasi-space-mutants. These are real people and I of course realise this.

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Watch Farenheight 911, that explains it.

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Then, proceed to read Mein Kampf. It explains a few things, too. :)

RPJesus, I could counter every one of your points that stem in ignorance and hatred of those who serve and the causes they serve for... only, I can't be arsed at this point. Perhaps we shall spar later, when I'm more relaxed, and in less of a hurry.

Sasquatach - make sure that by the end of your duty time, you can still count to 10, using your fingers. Combat Engineering RESPECT! :D

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Originally Posted by RPJesus

I wasn't criticising the people in the military, I was critiscising the idea of training people to kill. That kind of stupidity just ends up with a mess. Look at McVeigh...

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It's stupidity to train people to kill? And the better idea would be to sit back and do nothing when we're attacked or invaded? Yes, look at McVeigh. Millions of Soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines have cycled through our military, and one did something very bad. Look at Mr. Rogers -- he was a Marine sniper, had more confirmed kills than anybody else in Vietnam, and the second most in Marine history. Or look at lee Harvey Oswald -- He was a Marine. So was the kid in Texas who decided to take a rifle to the top of one of the university towers and start picking people off, late 60's I believe. What's that prove? It may prove...what, that some people are dangerous? No [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img]. Would you rather train a few people that might possibly become dangerous at some point in their future, or go without a trained military and have absolutely no defenses? In fact, nevermind, I don't think I want to hear your answer to that. Do a couple bad Catholic priests "prove" that all organized religion is wrong? What about Boy Scouts that grow up to do bad things, should we shut them down too?

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Anyway, many people do join the military because they can't find work. Maybe not everywhere, but in many places. Like Flint, Michingan. Watch Farenheight 911, that explains it.

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Don't tell me you're trying to base your side of a debate off a propaganda film by a known socialist. Please tell me you're smarter than that. Please.

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As for "you get to run around and shoot people", you show your ignorance of military.

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I wasn't saying that this is the way that all soldiers think, although some do, I meant that I hate the fact that stupid teenagers and republicans spew this rubbish. I certainly wasn't saying that's the way it is, but that's what some teenagers interested in joining the military do. They think it'll be an easy job, good pay for their situation and a laugh.

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And again, you show your ignorance. As somebody who joined the Army less than a month after the earliest possible time I could (you know, as a teenager), and obviously has had experience with other teenagers (through training and deployments), I've never met one person who thought that it would be fun to join the military because we "get to run around and shoot people". It's not an easy job, it sure as hell isn't good pay, and I don't ever remember combat being "a laugh".

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Though some will take it seriously, yes. And the republicans? it's what they make of it. Good fun shooting foreiners, I suppose that's what they consider it to be.

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Though this doesn't even dignify a response, I will politely say that it's completely...misguided...to label Republicans* as people who think it's "good fun to shoot foreigners". Maybe somebody's responsibility to protect and defend America, which might happen to include combat with "foreigners". It's fun to shoot some of them, sure, but that's because of what they do, not because they're not American.

*(By the way. Republican = One who supports the Republican party, the GOP. republican = One who supports a republic, which is the current form of America's government. Just like a democrat would be a supporter of democracy, but a Democrat would be a supporter of the Democratic party.)

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And it's not like playing a game. There would be aliens or nasis or space-mutants or alien-nasi-space-mutants. These are real people and I of course realise this.

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Do you realize it? So does every Soldier, sailor, airman, and Marine. you're the one who tries to make it out like we think it's some sort of fun game. We know better, and 99.9% of the time, we don't like seeing combat.

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Originally Posted by War Angel

Sasquatach - make sure that by the end of your duty time, you can still count to 10, using your fingers. Combat Engineering RESPECT!

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Hip and jaw so far, but still got all my fingers ;) . Thanks.

I actually think it's OK for people who are 18 to join the military. I only meant to remark that lowering the drinking age is a bad idea.

I think people who want to go off into the military is fine, but I think drafts are wrong. I also think my tax dollars going to pay for everything for them is wrong. You signed up for it, you and your supporters take care of it. Oh and you aren't protecting me as it is but please by all means let me get terrorized when all the *snip* come after me because they hate my freedom. I wouldn't want you dying on my behalf.

(p.s: I was in the military lolz)

[leeza]DMKA, do not use racial slurs in your posting. This is not EoEO or EotW, but that rule stands for the entire site. ~ Leeza[/leeza]