Pure Communism may never be achieved but a Marxist Communism may be possible. But if it doesnt work then Socialism is fine, For the first 2 years of Socialism Brazil has been under we have prospered more then we did in 2 decade's under Capitalism. More kids are in school, more people have job's , Their are 60% less slums and crime rate has dramaitcally decreased. Sweden, Norway and Switzerland are considered one of the best place's to live and their Socialist.
"Justice" does not mean "Harrison Bergeron."Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
ugh, good luck with this.
HahahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
And what's justice? Justice is a process of everyone getting what they deserve, based on their merits and vices alike - everyone being responsible only for themselves. Just as cheating on a test gives you an unearned grade, so does theft grant you unearned money. In that sense, capitalism is the economic system most consistent with justice.
Also, the countries mentioned in the above posts are not socialist - they are "mixed economies." They let business have a degree of freedom, so that production isn't completely halted, while the government leeches most (but not all - allowing for some small degree of production) of the profits, and distributes them accordingly, giving the most back to society without completely destroying economic development. It's an ideal system if you aren't really picky about ideals.
Raistlin I had always been under the assumption that there were many forms of socialism. This was fueled by the fact that Socialism is many times refered as a go between inbetween capitalism and communism.
As far as my knowledge on socialism goes is that in socialism at least part if not most of the buisness is put in control of the collective. That would mean that even if there is some free buisness that it could still be socialism. Socialism is a very broad term, and when used in such as this thread should be defined more clearly.
The extremes are pure capitalism and pure communism. The go between is socialism. Anything that isn't in the extremes(to my knowledge) is at least part socialistic. If not capable of being considered fully socialistic. There are degrees of socialism, they must be defined for reasonable debate.
edit- here is a clearer question... where is the line between the three drawn? are only the extremes capitalism and communism and everything else socialist.... that would make many nations socialists. Or is the line blurred.. and where does the blur end?
"Justice is a process of everyone getting what they deserve, based on their merits and vices alike - everyone being responsible only for themselves" and for that reason everyone should start life equal. otherwise being poor by chance of birth is a handicap which you had no control over and is not just.
Raistlin those countries i mentioned are offically considered "Socialist state's". They may have a little Capitalism in them but they are still very much socialist.
Actually, that's a fair point - when I consider the merits of privatized education, I don't actually have any objection to public education, I more have an objection to the fact that the public system is failing (Arguably, already has failed.).Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
However, the problem is that taken to an extreme this eliminates the concept of inheritance, which is a pretty unreasonable thing to be doing. Besides which, it could easily be circumvented by passing on one's fortune as a gift while still alive.
public education is failing because a lack of money.
it's not just about inheritance by death either.
Exactly like I said before: the biggest reason why our problems will never be solved is because the majority of people are willing to shoulder the blame themselves. Rather than think that the problem could be the actual system, the people scream that they aren't pouring enough of their blood into the system.
Actually Cloud, at least in America, it isn't money that is the largest problem(some schools do have money issues). It is rather complex and will not be easy to fix. In Senior Government we spent ages trying to fix what was wrong. In the end we decided to settle with only comming up with fixing the financial trouble. As complex as that issue may be it is quite easy to solve compared to the real trouble.
I don't know if we could truely ever fix the system of education. It would envolve having to have every teacher being able to find the best learning method for each and every individual student and being able to apply them all. The closest things I have seen to this are the 'true' teachers, the dedicated ones. Our math teacher arrives at high school at 6:30-7AM. School starts at 8:30AM and ends at 3:15PM. She doesn't leave untill about 4:30-5PM and sometimes not till far later. This is one example of what helps. But this is a mere drop in the bucket... a drop in a million. fixing them all may be beyond our ability. Rather we must make the best of what we can. That means we must go beyond just the money issue, beyond mere dedication, we must solve as much as we can, and continue solving. We may never 100% fix it.. .but we can keep coming closer if we strive.
Unfortunately the Politicians put so much red tape on the system that they are fare from helping it. If you constrict the system too much it loses its ability to adapt and teach. Not to mention some of the constrictions are litterally pushing the school backwards.
Right. Well, I want a personally outfitted Boeing 737, with space for maybe 15 people. I want a specialised chef just to cook meals there (Not the same one as the cooks in my Hawaiian retreat and Parisian penthouse. I want variety.). I want each and every new videogame and console delivered to my door on the day of release, and I incidentally would like my multiple PCs to be upgraded to the latest, most powerful technology on a monthly basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by FFGuevara
Damn right I will, given that my next-door neighbour is working in horrible conditions, for 14 hours a day with no rest, for 6 cents an hour.Quote:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA yeah right with 10 cents a hour, in horrible conditions, 14 hours a day without any rest. Yeah i'm sure you'll LOVE your job when you experience it.
I don't think Britain has any problems with letting people go to Cuba, but even if so I don't really mind. I've little interest in going there. And if it's so great, why does the US Coast Guard keep a constant vigil against illegal immigrants trying to get into the US?Quote:
Have you ever been to Cuba? Their living conditions are great, everyone has jobs, excellent education, and free health care. But you'll never hear and see that since your Goverment doesnt permit you to go there.
As I said, once those nations adopt capitalism and work through their own versions of the industrial revolution, emancipation, labor laws, and so forth, things will brighten up there as well.Quote:
At the cost of other countries . Those countries stole from Latin America , South East Asia and africa what would you expect? They gotta do something to make their people feel great and not result into a Revolution.
No, Europe, though the US could do with an overhaul as well. Support of the principles of the US does not translate into support for every measure taken by the US government. I damn well hope there's some riots if there's a serious breach of habeus corpus, for example.Quote:
Who the US? Your kidding right? You guys are becoming Fascist http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=7556
Yup.Quote:
It would look even worse compare the US to some country like Western Sahara or Congo.
NoQuote:
They still are full of sweatshops genius thats how they became the fastest-growing economies in the world.
. Guess what that means? Sweatshops are the first stage of economic growth! Or have you forgotten 19th century Europe?
Bullhockey. I personally know Indian immigrants to Britain who have told me how things are getting better over there. It's a combination of hard work and earning money in wealthier nations to invest (Hence the immigration, and part of my pro-immigrant stance.) which has caused this. It's not easy. Your promises of an easy solution are comedic. Your solution would be just as hard, if not harder (Due to the inherent unfairness of the system.) to implement.Quote:
Their in the same position they were in 10 years ago nothing has improved. All that money goes into the pockets of the Goverment and the Elites.
No, like the trade tarrifs of Europe and America which prevent the possibility of free trade with Africa.Quote:
Yeah like how unemployment in Venezuela has decreased by 2% in just one year and 40% more kids are in school ever since Hugo Chavez stepped in as president.
I don't think this even needs addressed. If you seriously claim this, you're psychopathic.Quote:
Why not?
Once again!Quote:
God your ignorent. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A COMMUNIST REGIME!!! How many times does it take for it to go through your thick heads? There has never been any Communism in the world, ok? Stop using that lame excuse. If you wanna continue this debate lets continue it on the Communist vs Capitailist thread.
If we are not allowed to criticise the problems which have been encoutered attempting to implement communism, you are not allowed to criticize the problems which have been encountered in capitalist systems.
What neighbour? You wouldent live in a house lol. Like i said "I'd LOVE to see what you'd say if you were in that position". Which you deserve.Quote:
Damn right I will, given that my next-door neighbour is working in horrible conditions, for 14 hours a day with no rest, for 6 cents an hour.
And did you know the majority of them arnt even Cuban? Their from other Latin American countries that try to sneak in the US through that route. The US goverment tells everyone that their all Cuban to make Cuba look like crap.Quote:
I don't think Britain has any problems with letting people go to Cuba, but even if so I don't really mind. I've little interest in going there. And if it's so great, why does the US Coast Guard keep a constant vigil against illegal immigrants trying to get into the US?
They always were Capitailist they even had Capitailism forced upon them for the past century. All those countries that are still 3rd world failed under Capitailism.Quote:
As I said, once those nations adopt capitalism and work through their own versions of the industrial revolution, emancipation, labor laws, and so forth, things will brighten up there as well.
You guys became rich during the last century because you guys STOLED from other countries. And who cares thats still exploitation. Why should people be sacrificed for the profits of some people.Quote:
No
If India became so good then why did they immigrate to Britain to work?Quote:
Bullhockey. I personally know Indian immigrants to Britain who have told me how things are getting better over there. It's a combination of hard work and earning money in wealthier nations to invest (Hence the immigration, and part of my pro-immigrant stance.)
Unfair? You know whats unfair? When some country like the United states steals over 10 Trillion dollars in Resources then 40 years later trick's that same country into taking a loan, or when some kid inherit'sQuote:
which has caused this. It's not easy. Your promises of an easy solution are comedic. Your solution would be just as hard, if not harder (Due to the inherent unfairness of the system.) to implement.
his dad's corporation and all his money which he doesnt even deserve , Or when you cant afford school so then you have to work to live. Thats how fair Capitailism is.
What are they going to trade if you guys took everything from Africa?Quote:
No, like the trade tarrifs of Europe and America which prevent the possibility of free trade with Africa.
Oh do please give a reason unless you dont have none.Quote:
I don't think this even needs addressed. If you seriously claim this, you're psychopathic.
No but you should learn more about what actually happened before making judgement.Quote:
Once again!
If we are not allowed to criticise the problems which have been encoutered attempting to implement communism, you are not allowed to criticize the problems which have been encountered in capitalist systems.
The behavior you just described seems so fundamentally against human nature that I almost want to puke, and I imagine you feel the same way about it. However, I can't give up hope and simply say that our problems won't ever be solved. To do that is just as much against our nature as the alternative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachifusa
Human Nature isnt a thing. It changes depending on are societies and the way the indvidual is raised. To define Human nature would be to define time its impossible.
I'm not saying that the problems will never ever be solved. I'm saying that if we continue to believe what we believe, they will. And that's being realistic. I love humanity. I love individuals, more specifically. I think it is possible to have a great, thriving society based on the idea that every person is an important asset in himself.
But when people walk around saying that America "stoled" wealth, and that freedom is "exploitation", and that ignorance is "knowledge", and that peace is "war", then we ain't gonna fix our problems, no.