For those who are still wondering how on earth Cloud merges his swords......

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

No, but there's no real evidence to support the idea that it does, either. Burden of proof on positive claim means you, who says it does grant superstrength, must find evidence for this position.

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Well, I'd say that there's evidence that Jenova cells grant superstrength. Obviously this is not where all of Cloud's strength comes from (because as you said, Ryushikaze, he was pretty much super strong before the Jenova cells injection), but a great deal of it. First off, I do not believe that it is at all a coincidence that Sephiroth was the only one injected with Jenova cells in the womb (allowing them to grow with him) and the fact that he was the strongest SOLDIER ever. Also, in AC, Kadaj in fact turns into Sephiroth upon the absorbtion of Jenova cells. And Sephiroth is far stronger than Kadaj.

Well, the thing is, we have examples of several super strong Jenova injectees, but we also have several examples of Jenova infectees and injectees who do not possess this superstrength. So if there is a superstrength element to be had from Jenova, it must only happen in rare circumstances.

As for Kadaj becoming the more powerful Sephiroth, remember, Kadaj was Sephiroth, and Jenova cells were his body. He needed that amount of Jenova cells at once in order to be able to assert his will enough to project his complete will, as opposed to the fragments.

Maybe it's the combination of Mako and Jenova cells that cause this to happen. After all, all of the people who have contracted Geostigma in AC only have the Jenova cells. Perhaps its the mixture of Jenova cells and Mako showering that causes this superhuman strength. That would explain why every SOLDIER seems to be incredibly powerful (i.e. Sephiroth, Zack, and even though Cloud wasn't really a SOLDIER he went through the same procedure).

To back this up, the Nibel Reactor was producing monsters (superhumans) by exposing them to high levels of Mako energy and Jenova cells. In SOLDIER, the amount of both of those wouldn't have been nearly as high, only giving them superstrength and not causing mutations.

Seems likely enough, though I would assume the Mako is the more important of the two, given Vincent's Mako given superpowers and his lack of Jenova.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Seems likely enough, though I would assume the Mako is the more important of the two, given Vincent's Mako given superpowers and his lack of Jenova.

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Very true. I wasn't even thinking about Vincent, but yes you are correct. In that case I would have to ammend my stance to say that the Mako exposure that seems to give them the superhuman attributes that they have. And then the Jenova cells would, as you pointed out, provide a boost in intelligence and mental acuity. Now I see it all coming together. SOLDIER was so powerful because they did both of these things to their members, making them the perfect fighters. Both strong and cunning.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

No, but there's no real evidence to support the idea that it does, either. Burden of proof on positive claim means you, who says it does grant superstrength, must find evidence for this position.

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How about the game itself? The Jenova Project, which created SOLDIER members, used Jenova cell injections to create superior soldiers. These soldiers were far stronger than any regular human. This isn't theory or speculation, it's in the game itself.
Jenova isn't a very intelligent being, as stated in the Ultimania Omega guide, so plainly the Jenova cell injections wouldn't do much to aid mental strength. There IS, however, a clear link between Jenova cells and physical strength, since Sephiroth and other successful recipients gained superior strength. It needs to be borne in mind that only those who were mentally strong were able to overcome the mind-controlling effects of the Reunion instinct and function properly; these were the people who actually made it into SOLDIER.
It also pays to remember that even the shambling, black-cloaked 'Clones' were strong enough to cross continents and make it to the Northern Cave.
Mako Energy, on the other hand, is spiritual energy - the essence of the mind and spirit. It consists of thoughts, memories and the essence of life itself; it's far more likely to be what's responsible for superior magic and mental ability among SOLDIER members.

Remember, the whole point of injecting Jenova cells into humans was to create more powerful, strong fighters - people who're capable of what regular humans are not. If Mako exposure alone were enough to do that, then everyone could become superior just by hanging around natural Mako sources. The mutated monsters in the Nibel reactor were exposed to extreme levels of Mako, distoring their form, but it seems that none of these creatures withstood Sephiroth after he discovered them there.

The UOG also says that the power of the Jenova is the aquisition of memories, of info. Jenova is mindless now, but not necessarily always. The tactics it took in its initial assault sound very intelligent, with access to the memories it was attacking. It did attack in the form of the beloved.

Now then, ever instance of ANYONE with 'artificial' Superpowers in FF7 has been exposed to Mako, from Cloud, to Zack, to Vincent, to Sephy himself. The Shinentai are themselves pure mako, as Kadaj's return to pyreflydom shows, and they lack any Jenova, as shown in their lack of a true reunion instinct- notably Kadaj's scenes with Rufus, and the fact that they needed the geostigma children for their reunion power.

However, of these, Vincent is the most important, I think. His powers and forms are solely the result of a corrupted G-mako (think of it like radioactive waste), without a single cell of Jenova in him.

We also have several examples of Jenova infectees WITHOUT displayed superpowers- the Sephiroth copies, and those who suffer from Geostigma.

Of the former, yes, they were durable enough to cross continents- but they were also exposed to Mako, so either could in fact be responsible. Of course, it might help if we knew their methods of travel. Several are apparently coherent enough to interact with other people, such as Dio.

Now, of this latter group, we have the children, without any superpowers, or enhanced durability at all. Then, after they are exposed to Kadaj's- a being of pure Mako- essence, after which they fall under his control and gain some enhanced reflexes. In this case, they only gained the powers AFTER direct exposure to the Corrupted Black Mako of Kadaj's essence.

Now, as you say, Mako+ Jenova is the normal recipe for supersoldiers. But as I mentioned, Vincent is entirely devoid of Jenova, and he is arguably superior in numerous respects- ability for flight, immortality, shapechanging, things Sephiroth did not gain until an extremely prolonged exposure to Mako- to those with Jenova in them.
Of course, there's also Mako Poisoning, so perhaps the Jenova injection is intended to offset the side effects of Mako, as it aids in processing the new memories gained in the Mako showering.


Also, if we assume for a moment that the general mechanics of materia are in fact story elements- specifically, their ability to affect the physical abilities of those who use them, then we have more direct evidence of spirit energy- for that is what Materia is, crystalized Mako- being able to boost the capabilities of a human being.

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and they lack any Jenova, as shown in their lack of a true reunion instinct

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That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. They are the manifestation of Sephiroth's spiritual leftovers, thus they are comprised of his essence - a fusion of Jenova and human aspects. They most certainly had a reunion instinct, as shown by their gripping desire to acquire Jenova's cells and their ever-present awareness and need to bring Sephiroth back into the world.

Jenova was an immensely powerful being that survived travel among the starts and the fall to ground; she almost eradicated the Cetra, and then survived two millennia sealed in rock. Even tiny severed portions of her body can re-form into dangerous monsters, as with Jenova-BIRTH, LIFE and DEATH. Every clue, both in the game and the movie, points toward Jenova cells being the source of some dangerously potent abilities.

As for Vincent... what does the Ultimania say about him, particularly the experiments performed on him after Hojo killed him? I'm curious about the details.

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Originally Posted by Big D

They are the manifestation of Sephiroth's spiritual leftovers, thus they are comprised of his essence - a fusion of Jenova and human aspects. They most certainly had a reunion instinct, as shown by their gripping desire to acquire Jenova's cells and their ever-present awareness and need to bring Sephiroth back into the world.

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Perhaps you misunderstand what a Reunion instinct is, Big D. The Reunion instinct (displayed by the black-caped men in the game) is what causes the pieces of Jenova to all come back together. To be drawn by a common force to reform together back into Jenova. Kadaj and his gang did not have this.

In fact, Kadaj himself says, "She does so much for us, and we can't even find her." This is a clear indication that he has no Reunion instinct, else he would automatically be drawn to her, instead of using others with the Reunion instinct (those who have contracted Geostigma) to find her for them. And thus, Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz have no true Reunion instinct.

To elaborate- The bishy crew, as part of Sephiroth, have the desire for reunion. They, as Shinentai, lack the reunion capability, which is commonly referred to as the instinct. It is not only what draws the infectees, but also what guides them.
If Kadaj and bros had the instinct, they would not have needed others to have it for them.

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Originally Posted by Aralith

Perhaps you misunderstand what a Reunion instinct is, Big D. The Reunion instinct (displayed by the black-caped men in the game) is what causes the pieces of Jenova to all come back together. To be drawn by a common force to reform together back into Jenova. Kadaj and his gang did not have this.

In fact, Kadaj himself says, "She does so much for us, and we can't even find her." This is a clear indication that he has no Reunion instinct, else he would automatically be drawn to her, instead of using others with the Reunion instinct (those who have contracted Geostigma) to find her for them. And thus, Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz have no true Reunion instinct.

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Those with strong minds - the members of SOLDIER, and Sephiroth himself - were largely immune to the Reunion instinct. That is, they weren't drawn toward other parts of Jenova; their minds hadn't been consumed by Jenova's basic instincts. I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to Sephiroth's remnants. After all, Kadaj admits that he's just a 'puppet' being driven by his urge to bring back Sephiroth and reunite with the other Jenova remnants. Kadaj can consciously sense Sephiroth's lingering spiritual presence, and as soon as he sees the vessel containing Jenova's head, he instinctively knows what's inside it. "A good son would've known", says Rufus, perhaps hinting that a more-complete remnant should've been aware from the start.

Seriously, it starts to get a little silly when all this in-depth over-analysis begins directly contradicting a plain, literal reading of the movie, game, and accompanying canonical texts.

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If Kadaj and bros had the instinct, they would not have needed others to have it for them.

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Notice that the kids weren't actually drawn to Jenova? The group returned to Edge, but neither the kids nor the remnant trio were actually drawn toward Jenova's concealed head.

The other Stigma victims acquired Jenova's cells or spiritual fragments by coming into contact with tainted Lifestream energy. After Jenova's - and Sephiroth's - defeat, their essence leeched into the Lifestream and was spread around the world when the Lifestream aided Holy. This infected many in Midgar, and these facts are all known from the 'Case of Denzel' novella. Everyone with Geostigma either got it because they already have a Jenova cell presence (e.g. Cloud), or because they picked up Jenova's memetic leftovers from the Lifestream, like the kids. Kadaj and co. also emerged from the Lifestream, when Sephiroth's essence refused to die and instead re-formed into three incomplete 'larvae'. To say that all Stigma victims have Jenova cells while the Remnant trio don't would seem to contradict the explanation of exactly how they - and the Stigma - came to be in the first place.

Yet they lack the ability to sense the draw of Jenova, something all other Jenova-ites are supposed to be able to feel, regardless of their will and ability to ignore the draw. Besides, Kadaj wants to find Jenova. Ignoring a homing beacon instinct is just silly in that regards.

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Those with strong minds - the members of SOLDIER, and Sephiroth himself - were largely immune to the Reunion instinct. That is, they weren't drawn toward other parts of Jenova; their minds hadn't been consumed by Jenova's basic instincts. I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to Sephiroth's remnants. After all, Kadaj admits that he's just a 'puppet' being driven by his urge to bring back Sephiroth and reunite with the other Jenova remnants. Kadaj can consciously sense Sephiroth's lingering spiritual presence, and as soon as he sees the vessel containing Jenova's head, he instinctively knows what's inside it. "A good son would've known", says Rufus, perhaps hinting that a more-complete remnant should've been aware from the start.

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A puppet would have been able to feel the presence of Jenova more readily, since his lack of strong will would have allowed the instinct to come in louder and clearer. As for 'instinctively known', he knew Rufus had it somewhere the entire movie. It's not a stretch of logic for him to realize he's being taunted with the thing he's spent the last few days looking for, which was under his nose at several points.

Of course, the Shinentai having Jenova cells, and having them affect them, would require them being more than thought given form. It's hard to have instinct without a biological processes.

To elaborate, the Shinentai of Sephiroth (Kadaj, Yazoo, Loz) are just that. Shinentai literally means spirit or thought body. Remember in the Temple of the Ancients, the guardians who couldn't speak or anything. Well, their actual bodies had died quite some time ago, and those were thought bodies as well. We know this because Aerith tells us after communicating with them.

So, they were remnants of Sephiroth, but they were also incomplete. They lacked the thing they needed the most. Jenova. Only with Jenova cells could they be complete. Other than that they were just a walking mass of Lifestream (as is shown when the rain, a.k.a. Aerith's Great Gospel, at the end of the makes Kadaj disappear into nothing more than spirit energy.

So, now we can understand why it is that the three want to find Jenova, but because of the fact that they don't have any of her cells in them, they are not automatically drawn to her. And don't forget, Cloud pretty much is being drawn to Jenova in the game. It tricks him though. He thinks it's a conscious decision because they're hunting down Sephiroth, but really they're just following Jenova who has taken the form of Sephiroth, so yes, even Cloud is drawn to her.

The reason Sephiroth isn't drawn to her Big D is this: he's controlling her. End of story. Now the question that commonly gets asked at this point is, "Why would Sephiroth need a Jenova Reunion unless she's controlling him." Well, he's locked in a crystal in the North Cave. The reason he wants a Jenova Reunion is so that he can trick Cloud into handing over the Black Materia. Once he's freed from his crystal prison, Jenova basically goes away. You don't see her until you fight her in North Cave again as Jenova SYNTHESIS.

I think thats really awesome the way u diagram everything into one simple sword I wonder how he's able to carry all of that.:choc2: