Fair enough really, that was a pretty weak moment of writing on their part. :p
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Fair enough really, that was a pretty weak moment of writing on their part. :p
I am on a playthrough of FFVIII at the moment (I've only played it once before) and I have to say I'm thoroughly enjoying it as I did the first time. The problem with Final Fantasy games (especially on EOFF) is that they are far too over-analysed and over-criticised. I've been on this forum for less than two years and I could create a list of every FF game and compose a huge list of faults for every one... bearing in mind I've only actually played four of them!
I do love EOFF but the hate expressed for individual titles is ridiculous. I don't think any of the main FF titles have universally panned by everyone. The majority of them would score (at least!) 8/10. So basically, having FFVIII as the third worst game OF ALL TIME is bit of a joke. True it does have quite a few issues that are understandably frustrating but the positive aspects of the game (which far outway the negative) seem to be tragically ignored by many.
I agree with Bubba, there are far, far, far, far, far worse games out there and I think Neo just puts them onto this list because of his high expectations for an FF game and/or the desire to make it controversial and/or because other people rate them higher than he does, so he feels he has to compensate by hating them even more, or something. In which case I could justify saying FFII and FFVI are amongst the worst games I've ever played. They are most definitely not. One was just crap for an FF title compared to modern games, and the other was just overhyped to the point that it could never, ever amount to the hype.
If you actually think there is nothing in FFVI that breaks the suspension of disbelief then you're a nutter.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
>>> FF13-2 followed by FF13 are the worst ever.. case closed.:luca:
Oh yeah, interesting list NeoCracker, is just me or you have not played the Suikoden games yet??:confused:
man, you have missed a lot.
I actually have played them, I've had a couple threads chronicling my play through of 1 and 2, it's just I started playing them after I'd started this list, so they aren't on it anywhere. :p
And no BoB, not only is that statement not a defense, it's just flat out not true. No choices I have made at any point have been made for the sake of being controversial. Were that the case VII, VIII, and X would have been my three worst games of all time, or if I wanted to be less obvious I would have switched just VIII to the #1 spot.
And besides, have you not scene how often I've bitched about FF VIII in other threads? My hatred of that game has long since been recorded here. Unless you think the past few years of hatred expressed for FF VIII has been me pre-planning to build up to this moment. :p
And no, FF VIII isn't crap compared to just FF titles. That's why it's on this list. :p
And if you think something if FF VI breaks disbelief, what is it BoB? Well? :P
The entire opera scene for a start. I mean, really, now. Not to mention Kefka actually somehow rising up through the military ranks without anyone realising he's pure evil. Sabin suplexes a moving train. Do I really have to go on? xD Every FF is full of things that are unbelievable.
If you're legitimately saying that FFVIII is worse than all the insanely terrible or outright broken games that have ever been made, well... yeah.
The Train is just an in-battle animation, not something story based. I don't count Sephiroth destroying the universe multiple times either. :p
Ghestal Knew Kefka was pure evil, that's why he used him. Kefka was willing to do the diabolical and horrible trout the emperor needed done. Kefka usurping him was more Ghestal thinking he could control Kefka, not so much that he trusted him.
And the Opera Scene? Really? Celes looked like Maria, this happens in real like. I can recount at least three times I've scene a guy who looks practically Identical to someone I knew, enough so I started talking to them like they were that person. Celes looking enough like Maria to be mistaken for her is no way a suspension of Disbelief.
And yeah, games have trout that are 'unbelievable'. This is not the same thing as breaking the suspension of disbelief. That very term means your ability to suspend your belief of what's possible. For example, magic is not possible. However, for purpose of a story, I'll accept it's possible in the world.
Clouds Sword would be unwieldy as all smurf, yet I can suspend my disbelief enough to run with cloud wielding it effectively. Especially since they at least give him the reason of being enhanced by Mako, giving him more strength then a normal person would be capable of. This is a game where only people who have this super human ability seem able to wield more absurd weapons.
The Gunblade is a large sword with a pistol grip duct taped onto it. Why is this harder to establish my disbelief for? Well for one, I cannot fathom an advantage to holding the weapon that way. And the way it works, using the force of the bullets and what not to create a vibration in the blade, would not require you to hold a weapon in a way that would smurf up your wrist by giving it a good swing. Mind you, the suspension of disbelief may vary from person to person. Glad I could clear up the misconception for you. :p
Though if you'd like, I could give you more ways the writing itself is bungled up in VIII! :monster:
(SPOILER)Seed shows up on T.V. when attacking the president guy, and everyone looks at Zell like he's a smurfing Idiot for announcing Seeds involvment. No one looks at Squall and Seifer as if they are idiots, even though they are wielding gunblades. These are weapons the game established early on are ONLY used by members of the Garden.
Oh, yeah, true. Looked like her. Sang like her. I didn't even consider these things when I was mentioning the opera scene. xD For me, the entire idea that the entire opera plot actually happened in the first place is completely absurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
Quote:
Mind you, the suspension of disbelief may vary from person to person. Glad I could clear up the misconception for you. :p
Oh, you don't need to do that, I thought a lot of things about the story were rubbish, but I just keep in mind that I'm playing a video game and rarely care about such things. I think "well, that's silly/absurd" and then carry on. I can still appreciate the game itself despite such things, and don't think FFVIII is that much worse (if worse at all) than the rest of the FF series.Quote:
Though if you'd like, I could give you more ways the writing itself is bungled up in VIII! :monster:
Compare it to, say, Duke Nukem Forever... and... well... yeah. I played Devil's Advocate to others and to myself over DNF for about five minutes before getting a bit further in the game and then realising how bad it really was.
I tend to take a game story as seriously as the game takes it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoBOh, yeah, true. Looked like her. Sang like her. I didn't even consider these things when I was mentioning the opera scene. xD For me, the entire idea that the entire opera plot actually happened in the first place is completely absurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
Quote:
Mind you, the suspension of disbelief may vary from person to person. Glad I could clear up the misconception for you. :p
Oh, you don't need to do that, I thought a lot of things about the story were rubbish, but I just keep in mind that I'm playing a video game and rarely care about such things. I think "well, that's silly/absurd" and then carry on. I can still appreciate the game itself despite such things, and don't think FFVIII is that much worse (if worse at all) than the rest of the FF series.Quote:
Though if you'd like, I could give you more ways the writing itself is bungled up in VIII! :monster:
Compare it to, say, Duke Nukem Forever... and... well... yeah. I played Devil's Advocate to others and to myself over DNF for about five minutes before getting a bit further in the game and then realising how bad it really was.
I mean Katamari is goofy as all smurf, but that's what it was going for, so I'll judge it on it's ability to be goofy and absurd as smurf. FF VIII tried to take itself seriously and present itself as a deep narrative, so I judge it as such.
I have no comments on Duke Nukem though. :p
Also, since you are on the second Continent, you can go ahead and overlook the Beatrix Spoiler, as it won't ruin anything for you anymore. :p
5. Final Fantasy IX (PSX)
First and foremost, I give a preemptive smurf you to the people who say the graphics look terrible on this game. The designs, even without the emulator, were always clear to me and looked great. I never understood the comments that the game looked smooshed together. At worst you’d have a lot of times things seemed rather pixilated, but that was it. Moving on to actually discussing the game though. :p
I got this game around the same time I had gotten FF VIII, both Christmas presents at the time. Obviously deciding from an early age IX was the superior choice of game, I do except it has a couple big drawbacks. The biggest of which being a rather slow paced battle system. There was also the rather wasted use of their Trance System, happening so rarely and at such inopportune times it became almost pointless. Then you had a couple characters whose stories were not handled to well. Amarant’s was pretty lack luster and lacked much fleshing out as a character, and while Freya’s was awesome, and she gets some great scenes in the game, her actually story ended rather abruptly.
Still though, the writing of this game is absolutely fantastic. Even Amarant, the least fleshed out of your party, is really only inhibited by the lack of screen time given. Even Freya after her main story arc is over still continues to have a lot of great moments in the game. I love how the game uses it's cast so well even when the focus isn't on them specifically.
The skill customization is also great, giving you so many points to spread between a variety of passive skills for your characters. There are definitely some that outshine others, but there is definitely room there for some fun customizations. Not enough to really change your party based strategy though, just enough for situational tweaking.
I would probably rate it the third hardest FF next to IV and Tactics, similar in difficulty to V. Not saying much, I admit, as this is not a series known for it’s ball busting. If anything, that’s probably what holds the game back for me more then anything else, but regardless of a relative ease it still requires some thought to progress, which is the least I ask for in a games difficulty.
Two characters I’ll gush about now I will Spoil for Bob’s sake, but I’ll get into why I love two of the games antagonists in Beatrix and Kuja.
BeatrixGod I love this woman. Probably my third favorite character of the game behind Kuja and Zidane, there is a damn good argument that could be made for her being the best written NPC in the series. Her struggle feels real and genuine, caught between her oath of fealty, something she holds close showing a strong sense of honor, and the reason she took the oath to begin with. They did a wonderful job showing her internal strife as time went on, and I loved her finally turning on Bahrne as she saw not only Steiner, but these people who had nothing to do with Garnet fighting to protect her with their lives, doing the job she herself felt she should have been doing this whole time. The stand of Beatrix, Steiner, and Freya to cover the escape of Garnet was absolutely wonderful.
KujaRegardless of the more effeminate look, Kuja comes with this arrogant and vicious nature about him. And dear god does he have a wonderful motivation and character. Yes, he is arrogant and evil, but his reasoning extends so far beyond that. He is tied to an inescapable fate handed down to him by Garland. Worse yet, he knows how disposable he is in the eyes of Garland due to Zidane being there as his replacement. You can truly understand his resentment as Zidane has everything Kuja lacks, the ability to control his own fate.
Even though he’s a villain, it’s rather tragic that even when he surpasses’s Garland and unlocks the trance, there is still the revelation that all the power he has sought after and finally obtained was for naught. He is still bound by the fate and end Garland gave to him, and then he finally flips at the end.
I know people say they disliked Kuja because that was akin to a child throwing a tantrum, but that’s exactly what it is I loved about it. He may be calculating and, on the surface, calm, but the true terror of Kuja is in his volatile emotions. And with a guy like that, what would you expact to happen when even after obtaining your goal, you simple learn the futility of it all, that you truly can do nothing about your fate? Shrug his shoulders and go, well smurf, that was a waste of time.
And now I hope you all accept that Final Fantasy IX is the best Final Fantasy, and move on with your lives.
While I don't think that FFIX is the best FF (yet to finish the game, who knows), it is certainly the best of the FF's I've played after hearing them get hyped up, which is saying something. Streets ahead of FFVI for me, it's really enjoyable and the script is good (not an assured thing in FF games by any means).
IX is definitely my favorite of the numbered games.
When I watched the ending credits to FFIX in 2001, I really did feel like I had just finished the greatest game I had ever played. People's eyes bulged out and then squinted as they dismissed me, because they couldn't believe I thought it was better than Final Fantasy VII. But after many replays, VII edges it out for a few reasons:
1. Combat - it's well balanced with a good challenge, but it's too slow and not as cinematic, whereas VII is fast, flashy, responsive, and overall fun to play. Plus, you can just skip a few battles and bring that challenge back.
2. Setting - FFIX has a GREAT setting, but it lacks variety and originality. Midgar was one of the most creative things I've ever seen and the constant contrasts in a world where nature is literally fighting technology made it stand out not just as an FF title, but as a fantasy work.
3. Music - Both games have some of my favorite tracks in any game, but I think FFVII was Uematsu's best work and a little more imaginative.
Regardless, I'm still glad to see IX so high on the list.
Pretty much any argument for FFVIII being on the worst games list following the mention of DNF is moot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
My girl here speaks truth.
4. Persona 3 (PS2)
This game was my introduction to Shin Megami Tensai, and the title that made be begin keeping an eye out for Atlus in general, not realizing Atlus USA were the ones who published Brigandine in the US. This was such a new experience in terms of gaming, and I loved how well constructed it was.
Because it’s relevant, I will bring up a lot of the games systems are based off a previous game from Shin Megami Tensai, Nocturne. However, having finally played Nocturne, while a great Idea it was clear they didn’t quite have the formula down yet, being just straight out unfair to the player. Three times in a row, this was the first Random encounter of the game. Round 1) Enemy goes first, hits critical. Follows up with second attack, it’s critical. Game over.
That said, Persona 3 refined a lot of that games problems, and what we have is one of the best games ever launched. First and foremost, this game is challenging. This game is very challenging. Oh dear god, there is not an RPG out there harder then this one. It does have some issues startling the line between fair and unfair, the best example of this being the sleeping table, though on a whole they do a great job. Though the difficultly drops off rapidly post Sleeping table, though that's like, the last quarter of the game.
Then there is an issue that people have, and I think it is a fair complaint, even if I don’t agree with it. That is the auto-pilot your other party members follow. Now I feel there are plenty of options for the AI with combat modes and an AI that runs well and predictably enough it’s not an issue. I understand not liking AI, which I’ve had problems with in the past, but I feel they give you just enough control to keep it from being an issue while keeping the games theme of the characters being separate and what not.
The dark design of the games art is superb. It does such a wonderful job at setting the mood and atmosphere you actually end up feeling uneasy during the Full Moon story events. The wold you are in during the day is warped into this dark and twisted version of itself in the most wonderful way.
The other big aspect, the social links, could have bombed so hard. It requires some amazing characters to make this anything but boring and droll, especially since the links and stories don’t really have an effect on the plot in general. But damn the writing is wonderful. Even without the benefits completing social links I see myself doing some of these every time. The best being The Sun, as the links are named after Tarrot cards, for being an absolutely wonderful and heartbreaking story. The conclusion of Sun is one of the closest moments I ever came to tearing up during a game or any kind of book or movie.
No PC feels like they are left behind, except the dog really. Your entire party feels important, even if they do get overshadows by the likes of Aegis, probably the only character you get in your party with a direct connection to the main plot at large. Still though, each character gets plenty of moments to shine, a personal favorite moment being Junpei awakening to the second form of his Persona. I’ll avoid spoiling it for people who have yet to see it.
And oh, the actual combat system. There is so much I could go into due to the depth of the game I won’t actually be touching on all of it. However, there are two things I’ll touch on. Firstly the use of three types of physical attacks. This really helped to keep Physical attacks and magic on equal terms in terms of usefulness, yet still keeping plenty of reasons to use one over the other.
The other is how much fun it is having your main character switching between Persona’s mid battle. Constantly changing weakness’s and strengths, it takes a lot of thought to keep yourself safe and not screwing yourself over. While there are definitely times it’s unfair, the clear majority of the time you die you know it’s entirely on you getting careless. So many options, so many ways to screw yourself if you are not careful.
If I were to pick out probably the biggest problem with this game, though, it’s the lack of main plot. Now here me out, what they have is wonderful and amazingly written, but in terms of story relating directly to the main plot is pretty sparse. After the introduction, the first real twist to the plot comes with Ikutski and Aegis like, 75% of the way into the game. The entirety of the story seems to be use of Symbolism and atmosphere, both of which are handled absolutely wonderfully. Still does not change how little plot ends up being devoted to the main story in general.
Oh, and a bit of a fan boy moment to end this, FF X fans? Takaya is everything Square wanted Seymore to be. Rather then being a major factor in the main story in general, he is in the game to give you an antagonist through your journey, and rather then move the plot itself forward, they both exist to show you exactly why everything in the world is happening. As a character and a Window into the worlds problems, Takaya is absolutely wonderful. His design, his dialogue, his motivations and goals, Takaya is easily the best part of this game.
While your latest entry is excellent, I feel that you did the game injustice by not at least bringing up its remakes.
Persona 3 FES brought us the Answer, which fleshed out a number of things about the stories and characters, as well as gave some chilling revelations about the plot and world.
And Persona 3 Portable brought us the Female Protagonist and her revamped Social Links, which took many of the poorer links and replaced them, most of them now being new links with members of SEES.
As for the story, I can see your point, but I don't quite agree with it. It is definitely not a standard presentation or plot development, that much is true. There are few twists, and only a few story events and cutscenes. But the story of Persona 3 is the story of a world, and it tells it beautifully. It's not the story of a handful of people, or of the Shadows, its a story of the world's balance between hope and despair, and how that plays out, and its this story that makes the game so powerful.
The atmosphere is the story. Watching the Lost increase in numbers, watching the town shift as people's perceptions of the events change and warp, watching the events and Social Links as your team adjusts to the horrible nature of the battle they're facing, listening to the music at school or around town shift as the months go by and the entire collective attitude of the town changes.
The story isn't a straightforward or literal one. It isn't about your battles against Strega or even your fight against the Shadows. It's a much deep, more fundamental one, a battle between two sides of the human soul, and it is exquisite.
There was no way in hell I could have covered everything wonderful about that game in just one write up without it going on forever. :p
I absolutely adored FES as Aegis was my favorite character. :p
And I agree with your description, that is what I meant about the story being mostly Symbolic in nature. And I love it. In the end though, I don't think a more detailed narrative needs sacrificed for it.
And I don't buy 'the atmosphere is the story'. For example, read any of H.P. Lovecrafts better stories, and they come with an incredible atmosphere, and a full and detailed Narrative. The Atmosphere is used to enhance a story and make it feel alive, it is not a substitute.
Edit: Also, something I didn't mention in the write up, a huge drawback of this game is Dungeon design is smurfing awful.
No, it doesn't need to come at the expense of a story. Persona 4, for example, did quite well in handling both as well (though it failed in some other areas, which is why I still prefer P3).Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
But my point is that the game's atmosphere, and how that atmosphere changes, is its own story. It's not the game's only story (heck, each Social Link is its own story), but it is still a story, and in many ways it is the largest and most important story to the game's events, and it is what ties all of the disparate elements together. Everything is disconnected at a glance, yes, but almost everything in the game ties in with that main plot.
And, yes, dungeon design is awful (even for a procedurally generated dungeon). Which is a shame. But, honestly, you could cut out most of the dungeon with little trouble.
3. Xenosaga Episodes 1+2 (PS2)
2. Xenosaga Episode 3 (PS2)
Oh god I love these games. I’ll say that yes, there are some clear problems with the series, even outside of 2, but in the end it does more good then bad. So, lets take a look over what is one of my favorite and most enjoyable series out there.
To start with, I fully admit to forgiving Xenosaga 2 more then I should, especially since it introduces one of my most hated aspects of some RPG’s into the mix, that being making your character choices almost Superfluous. Anyone is capable of learning any ability in the game by using various creation points. Wanna turn your cyborg body guard into a castor? GO FOR IT! Little Girl tanking? SURE! There is still some individuality, but the game does do a good job at minimizing that. Two also features enemies with way to many hit points, making even easier battles drag on a lot longer then they should. Finally, considering the games length, it does a poor job at adding to the overall plot of the series. It adds some great elements to be sure, but not enough.
Where two shines for me though is the absolutely wonderful story behind the U.R.T.V’s and Dmitri Yuriev, one of the games Antagonists. You get to witness Albedo’s decent to madness from the beginning, and I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a villains back story so well written before. You can truly understand why he devolved into the mad man he is during the main story, and you can understand his goals and motivation for doing what he does better then most villains. And the story added some much needed insight into the events of Miltia, a planet lost due to the various factors that the first game only alluded too, and really helped to flesh out the world and events of the series. Where the story didn’t really work, however, was even with all the fleshing out it did, there wasn’t really much a forward movement to the story at large.
With that out of the way, one thing this game does remarkably well is that through all three games there is not a single character that feels wasted. NPC’s and PC’s alike all get an excellent amount of screen time, and no one is left behind. I cannot think of another game that does this as well as Xenosaga. This is even better when you take into account the amazing writing of the characters. The only one that feels lacking in that regard, saddly, is our main character Shion. She may lack the depth of the rest of the cast, but considering she is, at the very least, an average character in terms of quality, I think Xenosaga is doing just fine.
In all three games, the battle system can feel a bit slow, though with the exception of 2, there are definitely slower, expecially considering some of the other games on my list. That said, there is a lot of fun to be had. Three, however, is the best by far. Also the only one of the games to include fun battles in your giant mechs. We’ll not get into the disaster that was Episode 2‘s mech battle’s, but 3 was so fun and intuitive. While the Pilots were consistent, your other characters would act as Co-Pilots, altering abilities depending on who was put in each mech. While it still operates the same for the most part, the differences are astounding depending on the co-pilot. And while at the core mechanics it runs the same as the normal battles, there are a few differences here and their to keep it fresh.
And, once again ignoring 2 in this equation, these games show some great systems for customizing your characters, all while keeping them with battle roles that make sense for the characters. More so I loved 3‘s, as is the running theme of this write up. Addition to the normal method of investing points into your stats, you have points to invest in one of two paths with each character. Using Ziggy as an example, he has both a body guard path as well as a more assault based path. Each path changes the way the character is used, but it always makes sense for the character themselves. One of the best leveling systems I’ve seen in a JRPG.
And the villains. So many wonderful villains. Margulus, Albedo, Dmitri, Voyager, the list goes on. Not one villain was poorly handled. Yes, this includes Windhelm, and while I don’t want this to turn into another Saga Vs. Gears argument, since I did go back and read Wolf’s last post on the Gears argument, so when I have the motivation there will likely be a Windhelm vs. Krellion argument happening. For now though, I’ll say this is probably my favorite set of villains from pretty much any game series out there.
I could go on, but I think it’s a good place to wrap it up. The most expansive and epic story I have ever had the privilege to play, the quantity and quality far out weigh the series negatives, even when they get pretty big like the Realian’s story getting cut. Or game two.
Final Fantasy IX is my favorite game of all time and the Xenosaga trilogy is definitely up there :jess:
The Xenosaga series is probably my absolute favorite video game series. I think the series is a masterpiece.
Odd, I thought you were going to post Persona 4 next instead, hell while I'm thinking about it, where's BoFIV because although you snub the fifth entry you would expect a man to have the missing entry from your list.
3 - Not played.
2 - Not played.
In regards to IV, I never played more then a third of it, and never got the chance to finish it. I do however have it on PSN now, so I plan too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
And right, I was going to post P4 next...
And smurf I deleted the write up. The plan was, since I wiped it from my list by mistake, to insert it as 3.5 as I did with a couple game earlier. Though I think I deleted it along with P3 when that one was posted. :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
The only Xenosaga game that I really liked was the first one. The others felt rushed(due to the series being shortened from 6 to 3 games). I was always a much bigger fan of Xenogears... but I'd rather not open up that can of worms right now. :)
In regards to IV, I never played more then a third of it, and never got the chance to finish it. I do however have it on PSN now, so I plan too!
IV is pretty decent, but I've always preferred III. The main villain in IV is my favorite bad guy in the series though.
And right, I was going to post P4 next...
And smurf I deleted the write up. The plan was, since I wiped it from my list by mistake, to insert it as 3.5 as I did with a couple game earlier. Though I think I deleted it along with P3 when that one was posted. :(
So you are ranking it somewhere between Persona 3 and Xenosaga?
Yeah, ranked just after Persona 3. I deleted it of the actual list by mistake when re-arranging it a while back, and wipped the write up by mistake when I deleted my Persona 3 write up after posting it. :( I'll probably re-do it here soon, since it does deserve it's time. Though I guess for now, I'll move on to the number 1 game!
And yeah.... I am so sorry for this one. :(
1. Final Fantasy VII: Dirge of Cerberus
You know, this game get’s a lot of flack, and for the life of me I could never understand why that was. Vincent, a fan favorite of FF VII, finally get’s his own game, and it’s executed wonderfully. A great mix of RPG elements and shooter elements gives you an extension to FF VII which is not only good, but I felt surpassed anything if FF VII itself. Regardless of my dislike of the compilation as a whole, Dirge of Cerberus really stands out to me as the exception.
To start off with is some absolutely stellar voice work. Look no farther then Vincent himself voiced by Stephen Blum. Normally it takes great voice acting to really make it worth mentioning, but this game has it. Hell, the only way it could have been made better was to somehow get Crispin Freeman involved.
The thing about the VA’s is how much it adds to the characters. For the most part, the characters don’t fall to far from archetypes, but the performances given really give life to them, and you kind of forget some of the stereotypical nature of them. For example, Yuffie introducing herself to Vincent was classic. It switched from a goofy intro to a very sincere and touching conversation between the two, especially when Vincent actually thanks Yuffie.
Speaking on Gameplay for a minute, the game does have some shortcomings. The controls are simple, and easy to get into. It is true at times it can feel sluggish, but once you adjust it’s no wear near as bad as some people have said. It comes with a good variety of customization. What I loved most though was the way they showed FF VII’s gameplay in a non-turn based an action sense. The combat looks smooth and sharp, admittedly more so then it is in practice.
Though what I liked most about this, and I know I’m going to get trout for this, was the revelation of Genesis. Now I know what you are thinking, and I’ll agree he was handled poorly later, but during this game he seemed to be a lot more the Sephiroth was, a villain who stood out amongst the others of the game. I want to give credit to Dirge of Cerberus for getting more more invested in the FF VII world then FF VII could. I was kind of sad the rest of the compilation went tit’s up, but at least there was still this gem.
Ha ha ha.
EDIT: "1" - Not played. :p I own it, though. I'll play it probably once I'm done with the main series.
I'm not even going to bother reading that :chuckle:
1. Final Fantasy VII: Dirge of Cerberus
:eek:
You're joking, right?
If not, consider me "shocked" to say the least... but I think you are. So nice one. :lol:
April Fools was a while ago, Cracker.
Come on guys, no one seriously thinks Cracker thinks DoC is a better game than FFVI, FFIX, Chrono Trigger, etc., do they? If he was going to put a joke at #1 it should've been a less obvious one. :monster:
It was worth a try anyway. :p
1. Shin Megami Tensai: Persona 4 (PS2)
This game is absolute gold. In the end, it’s not really a comparison to even the other top five games for me. It took everything that I absolutely loved about Persona 3 and pretty much made it better, with a couple minor exceptions. So, I guess it is time to get into greater detail.
The Dungeon Design is seriously ramped up. Not so much in practice, but in visual design. Don’t get me wrong, some of the area specific alterations, such as the blacked out floor at the strip tease, are fun changes, but it’s still basically a bunch of connected hallways. Though the actual visual designs are now more then just reskins, they actually look a hell of a lot more personalized based on whose mind the world had been created from. The Dungeons end up with a lot more personality that lacked in Persona 3, and it’s a much appriciated improvement.
Even the battle system was improved upon. While I was saddened by Physical attacks no longer having types, the improvements more then made up for it. The biggest being alterations to what could grant you a follow up turn due to weakness exploitation and Critical hits. The strategy got deeper as both you and your opponents had more ways to exploit each other. And, while I liked the great A.I. set up of three, I do enjoy being able to fully control my party this time around. I don’t know if 3‘s system of A.I. is one I’d like to see done in to many games. :p
Speaking of battle changes, the difficulty was handled so much better in this game. It manages to dispense with a lot of the B.S. deaths, and actually ended up being the far fair game, while keeping an extremely high level of difficulty. Better yet, at no point does the difficulty take a nose dive like it did in Persona 3.
One thing I also find it did better, and as usual Wolf is going to disagree on this, but your characters awakening to their Persona’s second form I felt was handled better. I loved the way in which a person obtained their Persona, and by going through their individual social links you would awaken the true form. It may not have had the dramatic impact that P3‘s catalyst event did, but at the same time when they obtain it you get this real sense of accomplishment, and it truly feels like the characters have overcome the problems they faced to begin with.
Now moving on to Social Links, while I don’t think any single link from P4 had quite the impact of Sun from 3, the writing I felt was a lot better across the bored. The occasional glimpses into other peoples links while doing one added a lot to making the town you are in feel a lot more connected, where as 3 all the links felt pretty damn isolated from one another.
Best of all? It keeps all the great atmosphere that was present in Persona 3, the symbolism isn’t quite up to the same standard but really damn close, and it has a damn good narrative going on from the games beginning to end. Everything is set up perfectly for the games finale, and it’s on a constant build to that point.
And on a hole your party is absolutely amazing. Probably the only one of your party that feels wasted is Chie, as she just seems like the only reason she’s even here is Yukiko is here. Still though, she’s pleasent enough. And beats the living hell out of Yukari from P3. A high point for me, is after my second playthrough, Naoto became my favorite character of the game, and one of my favorite characters of all time.
And this is involving the games “villain”, so I’ll spoil it to discuss something else I loved. And anyone who has beaten it will know why Villain is in quotation marks. :p
(SPOILER)Firstly, I loved it was the smurfing goofball rookie detective who had been the one behind killing everyone. Though what I love about him so much, is regardless of his power trip and other flaws, when it comes time to save Nanako I love how he just let’s you chase after her. He seems to genuinely care about you and your family, and seemed like he didn’t want anything bad to happen to Nanime. You get a genuine feeling of regret from him that she’s the one getting mixed up in all of this. I appreciate the game going out of it’s way like it did to still make him seem like a caring human being, while making sure you still had every reason to want him to fail.
Now, this spoiler is for the one moment in the game I just smacking myself in the head. It involves the video game world, so if you dont’ know what I mean, it means you shouldn’t look at the spoiler unless you just don’t care. :p
(SPOILER)Alright, I’ll buy the party thinking the fat kid was actually the killer at first, I forget his name off the top of my head, but that’s not important. When you reach him in the Shadow World though, and he immediately doesn’t realize that Yukiko and others were thrown in as well, your party should have at least had some kind of suspicion the killing was not over. The game pushed the suspension of disbelief way to far with that. I know it was likely to make Naoto appear smarter, though that would have happened regardless. She would come out looking amazing even if your party at the time didn’t seem so god awfully stupid.
With that out of the way, this game is absolutely beautiful in pretty much every way. If you haven’t played it yet, do so. Really, any of the Shin Megami Tensai Games. It’s easy to tell the passion and creativity of the games these guys make, and their ability to create gaming experiences that no one else out there offers.
I totally agree with P4 at number 1. If you have a Vita, then Golden is an absolute must play for you. It improves upon the original in nearly every possible way.
1 - Not played.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
EDIT: Even though I haven't played the majority of games on the list I still thoroughly enjoyed the thread. Good effort, Mr Cracker!
I'm pretty sure that not many people would agree with your ordering in the slightest but that is what personal lists are all about.
Rather curious If I'll have the care left to argue with Wolf by the time he gets back to this though. :p
I would like to say that I do actually Dirge of Cerberus. By no means should it be #1 on anyone's list, but I thought it was a lot of fun. That is all I can really ask from a game. VII doesn't have as much nostalgic value to me as other people though, and so it doesn't really bother me that some of these games don't measure up to VII.
Honestly I never even played Dirge. :p
I'm still not sure about Persona 4 being above Persona 3. While the game is phenomenal, especially in P4Golden, it misses a couple of things that I absolutely love about P3.
Perhaps most important to me is the scale of the conflict. One of the important foci of the series is the war, the battle of the nature of man, the conflict between Nyarlathotep and Philemon, and all they represent. And, as the reference drawn from Lovecraft's works might suggest, the scale of this conflict is immense. And Persona 4 fails to capture that.
In Persona 3, the characters are fighting a battle that is only a fragment of a much larger war, and even then, they are in over their head. They're struggling to hold on, and continue to do so even as they face forces beyond comprehension, forces so primal that they merely exist and cannot be destroyed or stopped.
This conflict exists in Persona 4, but the characters are never a part of it. They are secluded, living in their own little world. They know the monsters exist, but they never realize what they're a part of. Persona 4 has a very human story. The conflicts, growths, interactions, and victories are almost all on a simple, human scale. It's a good story, but limited.
Persona 4's characters grow and live on their own terms, at their own pace. Everything about it is natural. Take the Ultimate Persona events. They are a result of each character coming to terms with their selves and their flaws in their own time. Now look at Persona 3's. Each character's change is forced upon them, wrought by the conflict they partake in. The characters don't grow up naturally, they are forced to grow, in order to try to meet the impossible challenges faced upon them.
The events of Persona 3, even the mere knowledge of the events, changes the lives of the characters immensely. When Mitsuru sees Shadows attacking her father and Awakens to her Persona, her life is shattered forever. And this Awakening continues with each character. After their victory in Persona 3, where did they go? They establish a taskforce to fight a war that they know is nowhere near done. What does the Investigation Team do? Go back to life as usual, going to school and continuing with their jobs.
The Investigation Team never undergoes the Awakening that SEES does in Persona 3. They never realize the scale of what they have tapped into, the scope of the war. Part of what I love about Persona 4 Arena is that this moment seems to finally come in that story, when the forces manipulating Labrys, and the power and scope of SEES's abilities clue them in that there is much more going on than they previously thought, and that they can't ignore it.
But in Persona 4, that aspect of it is missing. Even when they face the final conflicts, and start to uncover the nature of the mysteries that have beset them, they never discover that conflict, and I feel the story suffers for it.
While I'm at it, I'd like to mention that I think Persona 3 has a better choice of atmosphere. Though it ties in with the conflict troubles mentioned above, its near perfect balancing of hope and despair make it one of the best themed works I've ever encountered.
Oh, and while Persona 4 has Naoto, who's awesome, Persona 3 has Aigis, who's even more awesome.
Also, NeoCracker, I think you missed the point of the Video Game world. (SPOILER)The characters not picking up that Mitsuo wasn't the real killer wasn't a setup for Naoto to seem extremely intelligent. It wasn't a setup for the characters at all. It was a setup for the players. It was meant to be a blatantly obvious red herring, to get people thinking that the fakeouts were finished with, and make the real red herring, Namatame, harder to figure out. They did sell it a little too much, but that was part of the objective, they wanted everyone to figure out it wasn't Mitsuo.
Oh, and Dirge of Cerberus is an okay game. It has some huge problems, with both lore and gameplay, but it is still a fun game. Nowhere near the top of any list though.
The problem with pretty much all of your criticisms is they are purely subjective, and more have to do with what kind of story you prefer rather then any problem on the part of P4 in particular.
And change was forced upon the PC's of P4, they were dragged against thier will (A couple exceptions of course) when forced to accept different parts of themselves. The following step isn't forced upon them, but I kind of like that about it. While the realization was forced, it was soley their decision to act upon it. There was no obligation on thier part, just a desire to move forward.
And trust me, I didn't miss the point. There were a lot of points to it, and it doesn't change the fact they way they went about it was to make the PC's hold one of the biggest idiot balls I have ever seen. (SPOILER)A red herring doesn't work when the player knows it's blatantly not the case. All it does is serve to frustrate the player at the PC's blatent stupidity. And yes, it was in part to sell Naoto's intelligence. It showed her able to figure out something the PC's were completely unable too. Though regardless, all objectives were achievable without them being morons. :p
Ah, don't worry, I was just gushing a bit. It's just why I can't rate P4 over P3.
You did cover pretty much everything that isn't subjective though. P4 did a lot more things technically better. Except for physical attacks (which I just don't get, what was wrong with 3 types?).
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/1598/mio3q.pnghttp://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...O/Riderb-1.png
"Ohhh... Persona 4 was the number one
favourite? I could never have guessed!"
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3.../Rider4b-1.pnghttp://img717.imageshack.us/img717/2938/mio1.png
"Indeed. What an unexpected revelation!"
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/2938/mio1.pnghttp://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...URO/rider3.png
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...RO/Yukari2.png
"Oh give Neo a break. It's not
like everyone knew about it.
While Persona 4 might not be my personal number 1 game, it still comes pretty close to that and is most certainly in my top 5. People who hasn't played it, are missing out on a real masterpiece.
The Xenosaga series, save Xenosaga 2, would also have a pretty similar placement. Despite many things going different than planned for the series, it turned out as one of the best and most memorable RPG series I've ever played. :greenie:
I put together a top 100 of my own recently. It's really tricky once you get to around #10 onwards, at least for me. And for the last ten it was definitely a case of "best of the rest", where I tried to remember how much fun I had playing different games when I was around eight. Trying to figure out which I enjoyed most out of Crystal Caves, Commander Keen and so on. xD
You've played 100 games?! This'll be interesting. :kakapo:Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
I've been playing video games since I was about four or five. I've probably played, at a rough estimate, around 200-300 games... I guess? Maybe more. Hard to say because of how easy it was to get shareware games back in the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by RostumYou've played 100 games?! This'll be interesting. :kakapo:Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
You plan to make a thread like this as well? Looking forward to seeing how many of your top 100 that Neo has never played in that case. :p
I don't know if I will, really. But it's nice to know that I can if I can be arsed... xD I want to finish playing FFIX first, since I think it will make the list.
Is that all?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
Well, I got to something like 220 when trying to list all the games I'd played so I could start ordering them. But listing all the games I've played is really tricky when there is no way for me to get the list together outside of my own memory. :( I haven't played as many games in recent years as I did when I was a kid - I simply can't afford it, nor do I have the time to invest in so many games when so many of them demand such a large amount of time (FFXIV, Football Manager series, Dwarf Fortress, etc) if you want to get the full 'feel' of them.
[QUOTE=NeoCracker;3237122]12. Breath of Fire 2 (SNES)
I'm going to give it to nostalgia for this being ranked so high cause there is no way this game was better than BoFIII-V. Better than BoF1? Hell yeah, an ingenious and overlooked 16-bit classic? I'll certainly agree it was ahead of its time in its thinking (execution is another story) but no way I can agree this is better than BoFIII.
Onto your post.
I can't really disagree with anything said here except that this was never a fair comparison because of the way both games were written. Xenogears is Fei"s story and he's a central figure the game focuses on whereas Ryu is a silent protagonist who is suppose to represent the player. What I will say is that Ryu in BoFII shows that a silent protagonist doesn't have to be void of personality and in truth all of the Ryu's in BoF possess unique qualities that make them interesting and feel less like player characters and more like an entity you interact with the world through. Very few games do this well and I will commend Capcom for that.Quote:
Ryu Vs. Fei - Okay I will start by saying Ryu was handled wonderfully for a silent character. You got a real feel for the guys personality and strength. But, in the end, I’m giving this to Xenogears. Fei was handled marvelously, and my dislike for the game won’t take away from the fact he was one of the best written leads of any RPG. Even if he was kind of an idiot.
I will disagree largely because I can't even remember what Rand's story even was, largely because it was never important to the main quest whereas Bart's story is important and has far reaching effects. I like Rand, but his story never really impressed me and I even had to look it up because I don't remember much of it. I would have paired Bart up with Sten personally because to me, Rand doesn't have much to say or do with the world or story whereas Bart's conflict largely helps get Fei involved with what going on in the world and it ultimately leads to revelations about the war 500 years ago and Shevat. Rand... is just running away from his mum. To me this isn't even a contest. Bart is a better character and his story is far more important to to the overall plot. Rand's story is a diversion on the way to the big bad, Bart's story is part of the plot of the actual game because it affects so many people and is tied to many events.Quote:
Rand Vs. Bart - This pair was picked because both characters have the most arcs in the game devoted to their story. There’s the initial arc, an arc that shows up around the middle, and then a finish at the end. In terms of devoted time, they probably have the most of any side character in their respective games, and is one of the better handled ones in each as well.
However, this one goes to Rand for me. The reason being is by the end of Bart’s arc, I didn’t feel I really learned more about what kind of person he was. All of his motivations pretty much made sense by the end of his first arc of story. Rand seems to both grow more as a character, and become more complex as time goes on with his arc, as well as a much more emotional ending at the Church of St. Eva.
I am not going to disagree here. I agree that Elly's story never quite reaches a satisfying conclusion and I feel her story arc being cut was a bigger blow than having Rico's story ignored, but also because Nina from BoFII is debatably one of the most well developed in the series except for BoFV's and her story is pretty emotional. Elly is certainly a better written character and I feel she is a bit more multidimensional than Nina but this is an issue of technology rather that writing skill.Quote:
Nina Vs. Elly: I’ll start by saying Elly had some good arcs and premises with her character, and for the most part it was very well handled. That was, until, Disk two happened. We never get to see how she rose to be the hope of all those people, we are just told ‘it totally happened’. That seemed to be the big pay off her arc was building towards, and it’s another thing the games unfortunate cut’s dropped.
I disagree largely because Bow isn't really a part of any of it. He starts you on the quest and then plays nursemaid for your town until you finally prove his innocence whereas Billy's story is actually about him growing as a character, exploring the Ethos organization, introducing the Wells and dealing with his conflict with his father. While I agree the final segment is really silly on Xenogears part and anti-climatic, Bow is just a non-entity for most of the game and once he joins he contributes nothing. Not only that but despite its painful execution, there is a real sense of character development with Billy whereas Bow is largely an asshole in the beginning and then a silent asshole afterwards so I completely disagree because Bow's story arc is more about the overall story than who he is and he doesn't really come away from it all any different from how it started, just being a trouble maker that Ryu has to bail out. The gnarm of Jesiah's supposed sacrifice just didn't bother me, but Bow was always a user and I could care less about saving him.Quote:
Bow Vs. Billy: This was paired because the plight of both characters served more to expose the problems that were plaguing the world around you. Billy’s exposed the church, Bow’s exposed there was even something going on at all.
Just in terms of how well that was executed, it goes to Bow. I love how his opening bit started so much more, and grew from that, even if he wasn’t really involved. Billy’s did an alright job, but when you learn the church on a whole is a front, it’s pretty much immediately destroyed by Solaris.
In terms of pay off, you have Bow finishing his work with Trout, the story that got him into the mess in the first place, and then rejoining the group now that he realizes the extent of the problem. Comparably Billy was firing his dad. Now, this could have been a close call, except for once again Xenogears kills the moment. When it starts setting in that the attack should actually have killed Billy’s dad, he just walks in and goes, ‘oh I’m fine, I fixed that quirk a while ago.’ The game litterly goes, ‘He’s dead......NOT!’ in the span of 1-2 minutes.
Point for this one goes to Bow.
I disagree because Esmerelda is central to Kim's story, while she certainly has her plot significance about nano-machines, her personal story is really about exploring Kim's past and I like the idea of Fei's past incarnations having physical effects in the present timeline. Esmerelda was great because through her, we got to explore the themes a couple who can't have a child and the moral issue of science being used for good or evil depending on the person with Kim creating Esmerelda, not just as a surrogate daughter, but also as the hope to restore the fledgling human race from its own self destruction and instead we watch Elly and Kim gun down by a government hoping to use her for war purposes. Sparr? involves an obnoxious quest, and you get to talk to a tree who tells you exactly what you already had been figuring out from every badguy you bitch slapped to get to this point. Sparr is kind of a redundant character and I actually like the guy cause he was an interesting concept but dude, seriously, he is a powerful fighter and can communicate with nature and the crutch of his arc is me rescuing him from a traveling circus... I'll take the nano-colony surrogate child who is created to save mankind thank you very much.Quote:
Sparr Vs. Esmarelda: Both of these characters have pretty short arcs, Esmeralda more so then Sparr. This pair was chosen both for this, and the purpose they serve. Not really to expose the problem, but the source causing the Problem. Sparr the Demon sucking life and his origins, and Esmarelda the Nano-Tech that the villain was going to use.
The thing is, assuming Krellian never handed Esmeralda over to you, which wasn’t necessary, what changes? You learn about the machines from Gaspard anyway. Your character already had flashbacks to previous lives, so Esmeralda wasn’t necessary for that. Her inclusion in the story is completely pointless.
Compared to Sparr, while minimal, at least feels relevant to reveal something about the plot. So This goes to Spar.
I'd say this is a draw, Rico certainyl got shafted but the game gave you enough info to figure out what was goign on. Jean and his entire story arc was just silly and redundant, feeling more like a sidequest than something relevant to the story and at least Rico is decent in combat whereas Jean has to make use of the game mechanics to make him good and said system is better served n a character who is already good to begin with like Katt or Nina. I dread Jean's story arc because its mostly silly nonsense that does little to really expand the plot.Quote:
Jean Vs. Rico: While I like Jean, Rico is the better character. That being said, I give this one to BoF as well, for actually Resolving the Jean story. And it was fairly funny.
Katt's story arc is short simple and says little about her as a character. Maria's story arc actually watches her grow into a character and features one of the game's really cool sequences and nice giant robot shout outs. I also don't mind the Chu-Chu thing because A) PuPu never bothered me,and B) I really like the symbolism of a guy arguing that man machine interface is the future evolution of all species get the smackdown from a "low-level" lifeform like Chu-Chu. Chu-Chu is a silly character but I honestly felt the sequence was handles better and once again like the Billy arc, I'm going to point out that Xenogears is better because Maria's arc actually involves her growing as a character whereas Katt's arc is an excuse plot to explian why she's there and she has no real character growth in it. Katt gets saved from a underhanded deal. Maria finally confronts her past concerning her father and the horrific revelation of Siezben's connection to the Wells and Solaris. Once again her story arc not only advances her as a character but explains more about the story overall.Quote:
Katt Vs. Maria: Okay, as a character I love Katt, and her introduction was handled wonderfully, but her arc later was pretty damn lame and badly handled. Maria had a decent intro arc, but for her that was it. So for both quantity of story, and quality of at least the initial arc, Katt wins.
Though even if Maria had more, one thing murdered her arc for me. That thing was Pupu. She’s scared to go out and face the man before her, even though she is the only one who can, and what happens? The comic side relief bunny grows to giant robot size and starts fighting.
Any drama was shot the smurf down.
This one isn't much of a contest, I never liked Sten and I actually don't care for the Highland story arc but I'll agree it was handled pretty well. Citan is just a great character and its hard to really make a comparison with anyone from BoFII. Not a fair mash-up.Quote:
Citan Vs. Sten: Okay, I like Sten and while his intro to the party was bad, his actual arc at highland was very well done and great. But this just isn’t smurfing fair. Citan’s a smurfing boss.
Overall, my issue with BoFII's "character arcs" in comparison to Xenogears is that Xenogears arc have the added benefit of actually moving the main storyline along and revealing more about the world whereas BoFII's are mostly isolated incidents that often have little bearing on the story. My one issue with BoFII's story was always the fact that the game really liked to derail you from the overall objective for long character arcs like Sten and Jean's. The issue here is that I could remove most of BoFII's cast and it would not dramatically effect the game whereas the character arcs in Xenogears are tied to the plot and world so removing them would greatly damage Xenogears narrative. So to me, this is no real contest.
I do disagree with P4 but I'll get to that later.
I didn't notice that you put Odin Sphere on the list. You are officially "the man". Odin Sphere is one of my favorite games of all time. I just didn't include it on my top RPGs list, since it's really more of a 2D side scroller. I've recently changed that though. :)
Haha you have no idea how many times I had to stop myself replying with an image of an internet hipster everytime Neo mentioned a game BoB hadn't played.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultima Shadow
This is still a thread about this list, right? Not just the Xeno games? So I can ignore all this discussion and bring up other games on the list that I would much rather talk about?
Yeah, feel free to do so. This was just an inevitable conversation that was going to happpen. :p
http://ocatell.womenpjs.com/17.jpghttp://ocatell.womenpjs.com/18.jpghttp://ocatell.womenpjs.com/19.jpghttp://ocatell.womenpjs.com/20.jpgI promise the list starts getting better.
Yeah, I agree, this discussion really needs its own thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
Ah, Rune Factory 3. In my opinion, probably the DS's most underrated title.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
I can gush about this game for hours, but I'd like to take a moment to highlight a few things you missed.
First, the characterization. Very few people, even among those who played it, realize the depth of characterization this game has. Each character has their own traits and personalities, yes, but it's the development of those that deserves special mention. There are a dozen different marriage candidates, as you mentioned. Each has their own story and quest line leading up to the marriage. But few people realize that each has their own individual story after you marry them.
As an example, I chose to marry Raven ('cause, c'mon, Raven's totally frelling awesome). After doing her questline, exploring her secrets and insecurities, and winning her heart, we live together. And then starts the adventures of her store. And, oh my gosh, is this not absolutely adorable. While it doesn't have quests, you get an entire substory played out when you talk to her every day. Raven is, as discovered almost immediately in the game, extremely introspective and anti-social. She doesn't like to talk to strangers or smile at them. Yet she runs the town's weapon shop. After you marry her, she starts talking to you about business, how it's going, and her plans to make it more profitable. And everything she can think of to make the place better without having to smile at strangers. For months this dialogue goes on, and covers everything from her changing her inventory to he staging a mock battle with monsters to display the effectiveness of the shop's weapons(Character SpoilerWith her suggesting first you and then herself playing the monster, since both of you can transform to monster forms.).
Now realize that they did similar things for all twelve marriage candidates, running at least a year's dialogue for each after you marry them. And you can only marry one per game, and you only get two save files. How many developers put that much detail into "optional" dialogue like that?
This dedication, this depth of characterization, is repeated everywhere, and it's one of the things that makes this game shine. How many RPGs have we played where characters say the same thing, over and over? Each day, each NPC has something new to add. There are further extra conversations when groups of friends get together while going about their daily business. The discussions change as the plot changes and their relation to your character shifts.
In short, this is one of the few games that actually makes a town life feel alive. These characters all have their own quirks and foibles, but you get to know them slowly, over the course of a year or two, and they always have something new to bring up. As you complete quests, give gifts, or just talk to them every day, they warm to you and bring up different topics. Each feels like far more than just your standard townsfolk NPC. I can't recall ever having a game with a cast this strong and this deep.
Second, let's discuss the gameplay. This is the other thing I love about this game. The farming is basic Harvest Moon fare, for the most part. There are some quirks thrown in (having to rest fields, :(), but on the whole, it's what you're used to. Combat isn't too different from the early Rune Factory games either. A bit refined, more weapon/spell variety, and more options, sure, but the basics remain the same. Customization and the stat system, though. Ah, there we find another gem.
Anyone who has played Skyrim is familiar with its skill system. Do something, increase your skill in that activity. But let me say that Skyrim's system feels like nothing more than a cheap knock-off of RF3's. 33 different skills to work on, with one of the best rate-of-acquisition curves I've seen. When you first start out, skill levels come fast and furious. Which is good, because each is tied to its own stats, and those increases give you fast boosts to your ability to work longer in the day or take on enemies in dungeons. However, as you increase your skill levels, the rate at which you acquire them begins to drop off. Getting to 99 in any one skill is a feat that will be no small time in coming, and maxing them all, well, I still haven't done it (though I only have one left!), and I've been playing quite a long time.
But with so many skills, your progression never stops. You get skill ups regularly. Walking around, Eating, Finding items, Farming, Poison Resistance (raised by getting poisoned or poisoning enemies), Sleeping... While you play through and work your favorite weapon or magic, you'll constantly be improving in so many other ways as well, just by playing naturally. There's no real grind to it, it's just a system that facilitates how you want to play the game, and works from that. It really adds to the whole feel that the game builds up of your character living his life. You're not grinding away or taking on huge adventures to become some avatar of destruction. You're just someone living with the troubles of life, and getting stronger as you grow, endure the hardships around you, and experience the world.
Eventually the game does start to hit you hard with the slow rate of progression. Getting Alchemy, Blacksmithing, or Decorating (accessory crafting) to max level, or high enough to learn the last recipes, is incredibly challenging. But even then, the game throws you a bone. See, your farm, as in most Rune Factory/Harvest Moon games, is central to the game, and it helps with your overall progression as well. Any crop you harvest has a chance to create a Rune Crystal, which boosts a random skill by 1 level (and any partially earned skill Exp is saved for the next level as well). So even when you're wanting to gain just one more skill level for that next weapon recipe... The game doesn't force you to grind it out. There's an alternative way to work it.
I really can't do justice to how well this system works in this description. So I'll simply say that if you've ever liked a Harvest Moon game, give this game a try. It is really something else.
First play through I found out a trick for getting a pretty damn high Black Smithing. :p
Just make sure to raise it up to 32-ish before winter, then when winter hits plant an entire field of leeks. Do nothing that season but forge Two Leaks, by using two leaks. You will get such a damn high skill and a lot of money selling them all.
And I don't think you should really throw in the skills of eating, sleeping, and walking when explaining why it's more expansive then Skyrim's, that just starts to make your argument sound silly. :p
Oh, yeah, there are a couple of tricks to get good black smithing levels and money easily. The carrot sword or the Daikon Radish blade work much the same way. I was more referring to around 80 skill though, and most of those give very little skill Exp by then. They're still good because you can actually grow the mats on demand, but it will take a ton of them. Omni-Elementals give the best investment return by that point, I find. Light Crystals can be gotten by the truckload from the island in the middle of Privera Woods (the little island, not the uber boss one), and they give better skill exp and money. But it's still good to work your field every day.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
As to the skills, Sleeping and Eating are both optional activities (and there are plenty of days in that game where I don't eat, and I know people who rarely sleep because using the hot springs takes less time and getting colds and fatigue builds your resistances), so they're valid. And, hey, Morrowind had Athletics, which is running/swimming combined, so it's not my fault Skyrim skimped.
These skills are actually pretty important, because they serve to continue progression constantly. Any time you go back in to a dungeon, you're always stronger than when you were there last, even if you weren't focusing on leveling.