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Shireen's helpless screaming made me cry.
Like some others, I'm also annoyed with the cheap antagonisation of Meryn Trant. The moral ambiguity of Arya's storyline is, more than anything else, what makes it interesting.
Dorne is still meh but at least there was a little bit of story progression instead of just tits this time.
Last scene. Was a bit of a nailbiter. I was fully ready for someone important to die, but I didn't think it'd be Hizdahr. Oh well.
I think we're in for a hell of a finale.
Huxley actually has a Master's in charging at men with spears, though :doublecolbert:Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Only thing I was thinking about during the Meryn Trant's scene was that Arya was going to go in there dressed like a whore and kill him in his room. Yup, that's what happening.
I thought the final scene with the Harpy and Drogan was great, but goddammit, why do people always have to choose the middle of a battle to have a touching moment? WAIT UNTIL YOU'RE SAFE GODDAMN YOU YOU'RE GONNA GET HIM--! -Drogan gets stabbed- Ya see? Ya see what happened? THAT'S YOUR FAULT!
Then the dragons are gunships?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenbokoGoT is pretty bad at showing the passage of time. They've been in Mareen for a while by that point. Killings started with civilians, then escalated. If there's anything we should have learned from modern history is that a rebellious population gets more and more cunning and dangerous as time goes on.Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoticThat's the point, we're just as expert as the Sons of the Harpy are!Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Lets not forget that Mareen is pretty much GoT Iraq. :P
Unmanned drones
Given their power they're more like aircraft carriers. They can level anything and the only thing that can stop them is another one of the same, or something super sneaky. Drogon's still a tiny adolescent, but he was able to deal with dozens of Sons of the Harpy before Dany began to worry. Fully grown, Balerion the Black Dread was absolutely titanic. Or I guess they're like roving reusable nukes!
Anyway, now that I've actually got around the watching the episode, I have to say that the criticisms about the Unsullied were completely insane. Every one we see get killed here does so because they're thronged by people or attacked by multiple people at once. They're trained in swordsmanship? Well maybe that would be useful if they had swords, but they're clearly committed to the spear-and-shield setup. Daario and Jorah did better because what they had to hand was much better suited for more chaotic fighting and neither of them were swarmed among the crowds in the first place - they started out with a little space and were able to maintain it. The Unsullied who managed the same also did perfectly well, but if you've got a spear you're going to have a hard time with multiple assailants.
Furthermore, given the Sons of the Harpy are from the wealthy families, they've got the resources to get some training, and some probably already had a bit, in fighting. With this big plan in the works I'm sure many of them got at least some practice in swinging a sword, and that plus numbers makes it perfectly believable to me that they could have achieved exactly what they did achieve.
So anyway, milsperging done, let's talk about Shireen. Basically, I return to my previous point. Yes Stannis was obviously not happy about what he was doing, but I feel entirely unconvinced by his actions. I don't know if it's because it's just not convincing that he would ever do this ever, or if it's because the show just didn't actually manage to convey how dire the situation was (They spoke of it but aside from being cold while lining up for soup, we never really saw things getting bad. Show us people starving, men killing each other over scraps of bread, talk of cannibalism - then it might be believable), but it just didn't work for me. Mel, sure, I can believe she'd do it, she'd do anything she thinks the Lord of Light wants. Selyse? Well, I'll retract my thoughts on her a little, I guess no matter what you think it's going to be hard for a mother to watch her child burned alive.
But Stannis? Last episode was a culmination of him showing that there is a mote of tenderness within him and that he's not completely iron. They failed to convince me that this was a reversal of that - it felt like a bait-and-switch to say "smurf you" to anyone who respected Stannis even if they didn't like him. It was too abrupt and too radical a shift from a man who was very, very stern and uncompromising, but ultimately just. He was willing to sacrifice Gendry and I didn't like that at all, but for all intents and purposes Gendry was just some random commoner, Stannis has led thousands of them to their deaths. He assassinated Renly, but Renly was his antagonist in a war and Renly's death immediately ended that war. This was pretty different, she was kin, daughter, and by no means an enemy. But Dany had more compunction and hesitation about starting a fight between two people she's never met and believes are there willingly than Stannis did about having his own daughter burned alive.
I didn't enjoy the scene. That's not necessarily a criticism, you're not meant to enjoy a scene like that. But if a scene or show or movie is hard to watch, it has to be in service of something. Even the Sansa rape business had a purpose to it, even where people think that was misguided. This? This felt like they sat down and said "Hey how can we make sure people know this is Game of Thrones? I know! Let's burn alive one of the few truly good, kind, uncorrupted and innocent characters in the entire setting!" and ran with it for shock value or something. I know GRRM was behind this, and that doesn't change my criticism.
Maybe he'll be abandoned by his entire army for kinslaying but I don't know, GoT's hewing to 'realism' in that people don't always get their comeuppance and justice isn't always served kind of weakens the storytelling because those conventions are sort of what all stories are ultimately based on. Relentless tragedy, suffering, and evil... well, paraphrasing Tyrion, there's enough of that in the real world so I don't really need quite THIS MUCH of it in my leisure.
I agree with everything Mister Adequate said. Give him a cookie.
psy sexy Jesus is the Braavos death cult guy I'd guess :p
Huxley: I don't know if you're saying "last week" and "last episode" as intentional hyperbole, but the touching scene between Stannis and Shireen regarding her disease was over a month ago in episode 4, unless you're thinking of some other scene. And if you didn't watch that scene with a mixture of feels and horrible foreboding, I'm not sure what show you've been watching. EDIT: I just realized the scene you are probably talking about is where Stannis originally refuses to kill his daughter, duh. My apologies, I am tired and dumb. But that also set up what his choice would be. EDIT2: Hah, I was right the first time!
And I will be the first to say that I was furious with Stannis for murdering his daughter, and I hope he dies just after killing the Boltons, but I think you're allowing your personal dislike of it to color your analysis. The claim that Shireen's death was purposeless is just clearly wrong; it dramatically changes everyone's perception of Stannis, who until now was actually almost a "good guy" for the rest of the season. And it will likely end up with some ridiculous deus ex machina magic against Bolton and Winterfell. Even after that, it's a glaring crack in his integrity and righteousness that will likely end up with unpredictable consequences once Davos returns.
I also disagree that it wasn't developed at all. Stannis when desperate is dramatically different than Stannis in fair weather. In fair weather, Stannis turns away from Mel and listens to Davos. When desperate, Stannis leeched and was going to kill Gendry. And I thought it, or at least the choice Stannis would have to make, was also foreshadowed by the original touching scene between Stannis and Shireen. I suppose the army could have starved a little longer, but the show made fairly clear that there was a negligible chance of even surviving at that point. I do wish he had seemed to struggle more, but that is largely from my residual positive feelings towards him.
You also use "shock value" as if that is a bad thing or something not worth considering in a show, which just confuses me.
For the record, I do largely agree with you about the Unsullied, though it's a stupid decision on their part to only carry spears while guarding a city with narrow alleys and small spaces, where they frequently patrol in small groups.
Yeah, you'd think they'd learn after their first massacre when Barry died.
Sexy Jesus indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
Christ, I just checked and you were right, I honestly thought it was in one of the last couple of episodes. Well, still, it was set up as a pretty touching moment and I got absolutely no foreboding from it. I just now rewatched it on YouTube. It's touching and sweet and nothing about it indicates anything except Stannis' total and absolute love for his daughter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
Eeehhhh I don't know, it's true that Davos is now possibly a wildcard, but this isn't a show where people get justice. Sometimes bad people do things to worse people, sometimes reasonably good people do things to bad people, but the Boltons and Freys haven't suffered as a result of their crimes despite what Bran was saying about the Rat King. If they get into trouble it won't be as a result of the Red Wedding as such, it will be as a result of them being in the way of other people, particularly Stannis and Littlefinger. How they got in the way is irrelevant, and it's not like Stannis is going to come up with some kind of worse double-burning for them because of their betrayal of a guest.Quote:
And I will be the first to say that I was furious with Stannis for murdering his daughter, and I hope he dies just after killing the Boltons, but I think you're allowing your personal dislike of it to color your analysis. The claim that Shireen's death was purposeless is just clearly wrong; it dramatically changes everyone's perception of Stannis, who until now was actually almost a "good guy" for the rest of the season. And it will likely end up with some ridiculous deus ex machina magic against Bolton and Winterfell. Even after that, it's a glaring crack in his integrity and righteousness that will likely end up with unpredictable consequences once Davos returns.
Justice, when it occurs, is incidental. Tyrion didn't kill Tywin for justice, it was because of a lifetime of abuse and hatred. Joffrey's death wasn't about justice, though admittedly Olenna's complicity was due to Joffrey's actions and reputation. Littlefinger would still have found a way though. Cersei's current situation isn't about justice, it's because of her own hubris in empowering a group she thought she could easily control. So unless Davos actually does shove a sword into Stannis, and I think that's highly unlikely, I'm not at all convinced that Stannis' actions will have much negative impact on his campaigns or his rule, should he win.
He was incredibly torn about killing Gendry though, and it took a long long time for Mel to convince him of it. Granted, the proof that Kingsblood has power is now something he believes to be true because two of the leech targets are dead, but still, it really did feel like a radical departure from before. I can see the intended logic being that he's willing to make this sacrifice for the good of the realm or the destiny he believes he must fulfill, but to me the show didn't spend nearly enough time making him wrestle with the decision to actually do it. But then if we differ in interpretation over the scene in E4, it may influence how we see this episode quite drastically.Quote:
I also disagree that it wasn't developed at all. Stannis when desperate is dramatically different than Stannis in fair weather. In fair weather, Stannis turns away from Mel and listens to Davos. When desperate, Stannis leeched and was going to kill Gendry. And I thought it, or at least the choice Stannis would have to make, was also foreshadowed by the same touching scene you mentioned. I suppose the army could have starved a little longer, but the show made fairly clear that there was a negligible chance of even surviving at that point. I do wish he had seemed to struggle more, but that is largely from my residual positive feelings towards him.
Shock value rarely has value on its own. Something shocking can be tremendous - it can be provocative and even socially important. Comedy seems to do this best, look at Monty Python's The Life Of Brian for a stellar example of what I mean. Sometimes, shock for its own sake can also be important if it challenges beliefs and mores and suchlike. A Clockwork Orange is probably a foremost example of that. But shock has to be doing something other than just shocking, or it has to be saying something with the shock. What was that scene, what was Stannis' decision saying? To me it said... they want us to remember this is GoT and we'll do horrible things to characters you love.Quote:
You also use "shock value" as if that is a bad thing or something not worth considering in a show, which just confuses me.
Totally agree that they need to actually change their weapons. I get the impression they're mostly in positions of control where their existing setup works (As when the huge riot broke out when Dany had that one guy executed) or are there to show Dany's power rather than actually fight, which is what their presence in the arena was all about. They probably need to start carrying shortswords around with them as well! The ones still alive, that is.Quote:
For the record, I do largely agree with you about the Unsullied, though it's a stupid decision on their part to only carry spears while guarding a city with narrow alleys and small spaces, where they frequently patrol in small groups.
The problem with shock value in Game of Thrones is that they rely on it to the point where people just roll their eyes and groan when it's used again.
I know some people are "shocked" by what Stannis did, but it is COMPLETELY in-keeping with all of his actions up to this point.
He's been using dark magic and killing members of his family to get what he wants from Day One.
I always disliked him: I knew he was a wrong-'un right from the get-go.
It's like Varys said way back: you can't trust a man who depends on dark magic.
For me it's not that shock value is bad, it's that it's become uninteresting to me because it's been happening for so long. Watching this show has become a chore for me and I think I might be done after this season. Sorry guys. :shobon: Certainly not the first time I've gotten bored with a show and quit. I do still plan on reading the books though.