Yeah. She doesn't like Dany. She knows this info will do a lot of damage. So she told the one person she knew and trusted that it would spread where it should to undermine her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
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Yeah. She doesn't like Dany. She knows this info will do a lot of damage. So she told the one person she knew and trusted that it would spread where it should to undermine her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
It wasn't either of those things. It was basically just D&D saying "shut up, we know we created a stupid plot and a power vacuum, here, let's have an unnamed random new prince in Dorne so you'll shut up".Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord GolbezUh no. That was just to add details to the strategy meeting not remind us Dorne exists. They could have said the Duchess of Dollet for all it matters, but it makes more sense to mention places that have actually been established as existing in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Wolf Leonhart
Oof the hyperbole didn't track. Lol do you think I literally meant we forgot about Dorne?
I basically meant that they mentioned Dorne and since there's 2 episodes left they probably aren't going to do anything with that information.
Do you think if we're lucky, there's wildfire underneath this thread?
If we're lucky, there's wildfire in the HBO home offices and we don't have to see the trout ending.
Btw, the rest of the season has been leaked (not the episodes, but the plot points) MONTHS ago and no one thought it was real until yesterday's episode confirmed it. It's really bad.
really
really
REALLY
bad
None of these are really contradictory btwQuote:
Originally Posted by JinxIt wasn't either of those things. It was basically just D&D saying "shut up, we know we created a stupid plot and a power vacuum, here, let's have an unnamed random new prince in Dorne so you'll shut up".Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord GolbezUh no. That was just to add details to the strategy meeting not remind us Dorne exists. They could have said the Duchess of Dollet for all it matters, but it makes more sense to mention places that have actually been established as existing in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Wolf Leonhart
Me: The show brought up Dorne to put a bow on a plotline that's done going anywhere.
Golbez: It added details to the meeting
Jinx: The showrunners done goofed etc
It all seems legit tbh :grover:
You know how Sansa looks up to Cersei as a god? So let's ask, what would Cersei do? Well, remember how Cersei planned to let the monsters fight each other - to great effect? That's what Sansa should do before playing this card, let Daenerys and Cersei duke it out and then press Jon's claim to mop up afterwards. Otherwise she just painted a big bullseye on Jon's back for both Cersei and Daenerys and you're risking a three way conflict where you hold the smallest force. Or maybe just let your beloved family member not be a king of anything just like he wants idkQuote:
Originally Posted by FreyaYeah. She doesn't like Dany. She knows this info will do a lot of damage. So she told the one person she knew and trusted that it would spread where it should to undermine her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
Although I don't know why I'm saying any of this. In S8 GoT there's no negative consequences to doing anything really, strategy is non existent and the Stark girls are infallible.
The realization you come to when the imp knows your queen's pregnant but he hasn't talked to her since before you had sex.
Attachment 76203
Did literally just talk to the guy who confirmed the pregnancy though. I'm not sure which one he's smart/dumb enough to think is right. Or if he'd even give that much of a trout if he did know. Other than, you know, she'd totally kill him once they win and as far as anyone knows is having his child so - smurf I'm getting down a rabbit hole and I am too high for this trout right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Wolf Leonhart
Once again logic goes right out the window, specifically in three spots for me:
How did Bronn just walk into Winterfell and find Jaime and Tyrion like that? I get it that everyone is mostly off drinking and pairing off but he's carrying a Lannister crossbow for crying out loud. Those guards at the Winterfell gate really are the worst.
Were those spears heat seeking? Three direct shots, one right into the neck from what looked like an angle behind a mountain range? Euron might give the Splash Brothers a run for their money in shooting percentage.
Why didn't Cersei just shoot Tyrion and the rest of the about two dozen people at her gates, including the final dragon? She's already blown up like half the city, but now she's following some sort of formal rules of combat?
My endgame prediction now is that I think Dany does indeed burn the city down and she ultimately is betrayed by Tyrion, who joins Jaime as being a slayer of rulers. Or maybe Jon does it? Could he finally find a bit of guile? And can Ghost please get a happy ending somewhere warm!
Ironically, these warp speed episodes make me even more interested to read the books when they are finished. (Assuming they are, either by GRRM or his estate).
Take care all.
It would have taken 10-15 seconds for Jon just to go over and give Ghost a little oooshabooboodo smoooshie ruffle-of-the-head-aroo. But no, he just f**ks off. I know we've debated Theon's path to redemption but there is simply no way back for Jon after this. I hope he dies horribly.
I actually forgot about fortune teller that Cersei visits who predicts she'll be "...queen for a time. Then comes another, younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear." I know that prophecies aren't always fulfilled but...
Also, Missandei's death clearly spells the end for Greyworm. Thinking back to SPT's prophecy that "Neither can live while the other survives"... It's a foregone conclusion.
And why, after hitting Rhaegal 3 times in a row, did 30 smurfing scorpions miss Daenerys point blank?
Yeah, Cersei could've ended the war right there. Daenerys has never been anything without her dragons, and Drogon was literally just chilling on the ground.
Grey Worm isn't dying. He has to take Missandei's remains back to Naath and fulfill his promise to her about protecting her people. He's living.
I know Yara doesn't have a huge resource, but I can't see her staying at the Iron Islands while it all kicks off. I'm hoping she can show up late and take out pound shop Jack Sparrow. The guy is devoid of all charm.
This is what I want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx
As many times in this show as people have died for someone, I'd like some more bittersweet moments of people having to live for someone.
Trying to cram about 30 episodes of content (at the show's usual pacing) into 6 is showing. I liked the first two episodes with all the reunions and didn't mind the night battle. Some people did stupid things but that always happens in GoT. Arya's moment was fantastic. I also always thought the white walker angle was less interesting compared to the politics. This most recent episode was really bad, though, for too many reasons to list. I can't think of a single person who was not idiotic in this episode except perhaps The Hound or Tormund. I don't have much hope for the two episode wrap up to all this but I could be surprised! Maybe Arya will dash out of a corner and stab Cersei as well.
I agree, I have absolutely no issue with characters making poor or stupid decisions. In fact, I welcome it. GoT's best moments have come from characters making poor decisions - Ned, Robb, Stannis and Oberyn. My issue with it is that, other than Daenerys who is being absolutely shafted, nobody else is experiencing negative consequences of stupid decisions. In fact, those characters are still being praised for being smart and sneering at other characters for being dumb! (hi Tyrion and Sansa)
I don't think it's a coincidence that Daenerys has been the most interesting and enjoyable character this season. She's the reason to watch the show and I'm excited to see what she does now.
https://i.imgur.com/ilEgAQC.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
Mate that Daenerys crazy eyes trout at Jon and then Cersei was the business I'm not having it
Did anyone noticed that this episode she started wearing a cravat? Probably in memory of the late great Jorah Mormont. :(
YOU'RE NOT MY REAL DAD
this show is so smurfing garbage lol
death list coming soon
Nah, I figure this is the thing the books will do too.
Mad queen and all that. But hey, we got cleganebowl?
Oh.
Attachment 76259
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...49/977/aba.gif
what's a redemption arc
In one of those pool thingies I said the Iron Throne would melt in the end. Lookin' good for me!
That was horrible and brutal. Full respect goes to the stunt people, visual effects teams and the actors and actresses. They did not pull their punches! And for everyone who wanted Cersei to get hers as King's Landing falls - hell, people who have wanted it since Joffrey - this is what that looks like. Cute and cuddly Northmen rapists, sweet lil Grey Worm the murderer, Dothraki running down fleeing women and children. I hope you enjoyed it!
I wish we'd seen more of Daenerys in that episode. As in, actually saw her reactions to stuff rather than as a WMD. Maybe the words of Viserys, Jon, Jorah, Missandei ("Dracarys!") echoing in her head like in the previously on bit. Maybe cackling maniacally. Shrieking "BURN THEM ALL!".
I don't think they did quite enough of a good job to make her change from this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM7jhG-9yQM to the Mad Queen seem entirely believable. Like, the straw that broke the camel's back was Jon not putting out? Come on, don't be doing her dirty like that.
I agree that the Jaime bit was the worst. He needs a final boss so let's give him Euron! ughhhhh. No. Valonqar? What's that?
I liked Arya's bit though. "I'm gonna kill the queen :smug:" and not only failing but actually experiencing consequences? Thank you! I'm even feeling generous about deus ex horse right now.
I don't really feel like Cersei got what was coming to her. I feel like she got off easily. Also, I wanted Arya to kill her. That's kind of been my main investment in the show, so kind of disappointed.
Well, I wasn't really amazed or disappointed with that episode. I mean it was awesome to watch it play out and overall Idrsay I'm satisfied with what happened. Will be interesting to see how Dany plays out in the final episode.
I dunno. I kinda liked the perspective e from the common people. It made if feel more of a horrible thing she was doing. I think if we focused on her more, youd get some of that there empathies and maybe wouldnt have been as horrified about her actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
Yeah the euron bit was dumb. Agreed.Quote:
I agree that the Jaime bit was the worst. He needs a final boss so let's give him Euron! ughhhhh. No. Valonqar? What's that?
"Death rides a pale horse."Quote:
I liked Arya's bit though. "I'm gonna kill the queen :smug:" and not only failing but actually experiencing consequences? Thank you! I'm even feeling generous about deus ex horse right now.
All the inconsistencies at this point are amusing but the size of Dany's army has to be the best one, from "half the Dothraki" miraculously surviving Winterfell to the next episode preview having a bigger army than she had this episode.
Visually appealing and well shot episode, terrible storytelling.
1 episode left.
I do think of the last of our main bunch, Davos would make a wonderful King. He’s never wanted it, or had a stake in it. He’s always been a moral character, and has observed so much of the happenings - witnessed the downfall of Stannis, resurrection of Jon, death of the Night King, and the madness of Dany. That’s a lot of things to witness and still be as firm as he is. Sadly, this will never happen.
I think a joint rulership of Bran/Sansa with Arya killing Dany and she and Jon heading north of the wall, just generally escaping politics.
I hope Tyrion survives, and is a better hand to Sansa than he has been shown to be to Dany.
Mixed feelings on Jamie/Cersei. I think it’s apt that they died as a tower collapsed on them, after they both started it by pushing someone from a tower. That said, the show has spent all this time redeeming Jamie, and while normally I’m a fan of a rug pull - this felt.... very unsatisfying indeed.
Ugh, last night's episode was utterly distasteful, that is all
yeah im not buying the ´mad queen danearys´ either.
the change from Misa to this is just... to great.
it was a visually stunning episode tho.
10/10 either Jon or Dany dies next episode
https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/an98Dgb_700b.jpg
Daenerys: When my dragons are grown we will take back what was stolen from me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.
People: yaaasssss
Daenerys: I will take what is mine through fire and blood.
People: yaaassss
Daenerys: *does all that*
People: What? Why? This is bad writing!
like she even says, the slaves freed themselves and rose up against their tyrants. The people at kings landing did not. So in her mind, they weren't innocent. Like it's not really a big surprise she rained fire from the sky. Was it right? No, bitch be cray. But she's been cray for a while. We just were okay with her cray before because of who she was going against. Who legitimately walks into a funeral pyre and isn't crazy?! She didn't know she was going to survive it, she just walked into it. She was unphased at her brother being murdered. She was okay with the crazy barbarian Dothraki. She burned all their leaders cause she didn't want to deal with their culture. Her advisors were who kept her in check, specifically Jorah. But he's gone. They're all gone.
I feel like people take more issue with the breakneck pace of it than the fact she made her daddy proud. Dany 3 episodes ago maybe would have burnt the red keep without any real regard for civilians, but she wouldn't have gone "burninate all the women and children first". And yes things happened between those two points in time, but they happened too fast because they're clearly just wrapping this show up as soon as they can (probably so they can move on to other deals they've already made, like a Star Wars trilogy).
I'm also amused by the ineffectiveness of the scorpions against Drogon, less than a full episode after they annihilate Rhaegal. Plot armor giveth and plot armor taketh away. :p
Eh not really, You see she went high and low on drogon, as well as moving quickly, this time. And if it was truly a "caught off guard" moment with Rhaegal, they really didn't see them (although I am still meh on that) but if they didn't, they could easily aim at an obvious path the dragons are taking vs one that is moving in ways intentionally difficult for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freya
Daenerys: I am not here to be queen of the ashes.
People: yaaasssss
Daenerys: we will bring peace back to Westeros
People: yaaasssss
Daenerys: Together we will leave the world a better place than we found it.
People: yaaasssss
Daenerys: we will save this country from those who would destroy it.
People: yaaasssss
Daenerys: I know what Cersei has told you: that I have come to destroy your cities, burn down your homes, murder you and orphan your children. That's Cersei Lannister, not me. I'm not here to murder, and all I want to destroy is the wheel that has rolled over everyone both rich and poor, to the benefit of no-one but the Cersei Lannisters of the world.
People: yaaasssss
Jon Snow: I never thought that dragons would exist again. No one did. The people who follow you know that you made something impossible happen. Maybe that helps them believe that you can make other impossible things happen. Build a different world from the trout one they've always known. But if you use them to melt castles and burn cities, you're not different...you're just more of the same.
Daenerys: yaaasssss... actually nah i'm mad now lol
Goes into a lot of the technical making of the episode.
Yeah, when she had people reacting to those things, a cheerleading squad even. She had people telling her "hey maybe we shouldn't murder all the Masters, it could go bad...." then you know, it did.Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoticQuote:
Originally Posted by Freya
Daenerys: I am not here to be queen of the ashes.
People: yaaasssss
Daenerys: we will bring peace back to Westeros
People: yaaasssss
Daenerys: Together we will leave the world a better place than we found it.
People: yaaasssss
Daenerys: we will save this country from those who would destroy it.
People: yaaasssss
Daenerys: I know what Cersei has told you: that I have come to destroy your cities, burn down your homes, murder you and orphan your children. That's Cersei Lannister, not me. I'm not here to murder, and all I want to destroy is the wheel that has rolled over everyone both rich and poor, to the benefit of no-one but the Cersei Lannisters of the world.
People: yaaasssss
Jon Snow: I never thought that dragons would exist again. No one did. The people who follow you know that you made something impossible happen. Maybe that helps them believe that you can make other impossible things happen. Build a different world from the trout one they've always known. But if you use them to melt castles and burn cities, you're not different...you're just more of the same.
Daenerys: yaaasssss... actually nah i'm mad now lol
Then all her close people died.
And those who didn't, they betrayed her. So, time for ya know, doing what she knows best, burning and killing everyone.
:gator:
It's not a surprise and has been building for some time in very clear and obvious ways directly spoken by her character, that people just dismissed cause her troutty actions were against "baddies".
That all said, I think Emilia Clarke's acting has been great this season with this descent.
Sure, she killed all the Masters* but she didn't kill all the slaves. She didn't respond to the "Mhysa!" cries with "Dracarys!"
*this underplays her Meereen arc. She actually worked very hard for peace, making compromises like opening the pits and marrying Hizdahr. If, after the initial revenge crucifixion, you think she went on a murder spree then you misremember. The Harpy broke the peace, not Dany.
Maybe she actually is insane, so she can say things and mean them and then go do the opposite. Her father was likely suffering from mental disability and the inbreeding of that family doesn't help at all. Like Frekana said, half her advisors died and the other half betrayed her trust. That could certainly cause a mentally unstable person to snap. I'm not sure they set up the insane angle well especially after 7 seasons of building up her resistance to it, but a mental disability would explain everything. But like most things this season, everything is at a rapid pace because time is running out.
Because she had people advising and guiding her then. She had people who needed saving and were saved and were thankful for that. People didn't need saved in Westeros, not from tyrants at least just supernatural. There were no slaves to feel as if she was "Mhysa!". The people were free and for the most part, most the time, they didn't get hurt just living their lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
She's never needed advisors to show mercy. In the Mhysa scene all her advisors are like "whoa chill out they're dangerous" and she ignores them to see the people. And in S1 before she had any advisors at all, her mercy for the Lhazareen - not slaves who needed freeing by the way - got Khal Drogo killed. Half her advisors are dead so now she murders smallfolk just doesn't wash.
Also free people living their lives and therefore they can die doesn't really gel with her oft stated "the wheel is rolling over and crushing the people" metaphor. And, you know, literally every depiction of peasants in the show, all the way from Mycah the Butcher's Boy onwards. That is one of the heaviest themes of the series. Why is it always the innocents who suffer when you high lords play your game of thrones?
Probably this part:Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
I think her arc has been building to this, don't get me wrong. But if she starts at point A back in Pentos and point G is the Mad Queen burning King's Landing, it feels like we've gone A-B-C-D-G. And okay, I get it, and it's kind of fun, but it just didn't feel quite right. Maybe the reduced number of episodes in the final seasons has contributed to this issue. I hope the books do her story justice and I have a lot of faith in GRRM (for all I make fun of his food descriptions!) that he can pull it off.
It feels like D was when she brought all her armies and dragons to the north to help with the white walkers, which was only three episodes ago and a culmination of 7 seasons. So going EFG in two episodes just doesn't work.
I also question how mad she really needed to be. I get punishing your enemies even after they surrendered, but burning the entire city to the ground and chasing down obviously fleeing peasants goes further than vengeance to truly psychopathic levels. I think her vengeful nature was shown all throughout the series but I never got the sense that she was a psychopath.
It's hard to imagine Martin would take the books in a completely different direction than this given that he has still been involved with the show, but I hope he has the time and discipline to write it better than what we are getting now.
Even though it's probably a given at this point, I really hope Arya isn't the one to kill Dany. I'm so bored of Arya's character at this point.
(And yes I was down with her shanking the Night King)
This show kind of feels like Xenogears.
Disc 1 (season 1 through 6) was a full fledged game with exploration.
Disc 2 (season 7 and 8) rotated between text dumps and boss fights.
Most would pretty much agree that the shortened seasons were a colossal mistake. That being said, Xenogears is still pretty damn good.
If you were on board for like 65 of 73 episodes but you're miffed they didn't stick the landing, it's still a pretty good show overall.
People who want to retroactively act like it was "just okay" the whole time are totally disingenuous.
If you want to complain about a dumpster fire you're more than welcome to join me in The Walking Dead thread.
Pointing out Dany's big talk about wanting to save everyone does not change the fact that she has spent every season consistently being as brutal towards anyone who crosses her as every tyrant she claims to be against. And she did not get better about this as the seasons went on. She was consistently just barely held back from her worst tendencies by her trusted advisors and by the end she had none of those left and was blatantly succumbing to her paranoia all season and she'd finally had enough of holding back.
This is as surprising as snow in a Canadian winter (Vancouver not included).
While this is true, expect a very vocal chunk of people to not see it this way. See also: Mass Effect 3 and LOST :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Lone Wolf Leonhart
For all those going on about how her advisors betrayed her, I'd say she is betraying her advisors (and people) just as often. The moment she found out that Jon was the true king, she could have done so many things but she simply instead chose to be power hungry and consider people demons for trying to protect the people. I can understand considering Varys sending out letters to let the people know the truth to be a betrayal, but he only did so because she made it clear she would happily burn down the entire city, women and children included, rather than wait a little while for her own forces to be ready for a battle, let alone lay siege. She chose for the fast route and she showed she was not willing to consider helping the people. The moment that happened, she betrayed all the advisors she ever had as far as I'm concerned. She was no longer the queen they had been promised.
Oh for sure they really didn't betray her, I mean maybe varys. But she THINKS they did. All she's cared about is becoming queen of the iron throne. Jon's claim throws a wrench in that and to question it is to betray her, in her mind.
Her focus has been on her title, not so much the people. The people she's saved have all been a means to an end I think, that end being the rule of the seven kingdoms. I mentioned it before but she's a conqueror, not a ruler.
Yesterday's episode was a huge loss for Cersei fans. It cost her life, her unborn child, it even coster Waldau.
I agree with Psychotic. I'm actually fine with all of the major plot points from last episode; the show has just done an awful job of executing them with good storytelling.
It just felt like Dany needed some other push. A coworker and I were talking about how we expected Jaime and Cersei to pull of some sort of trick, where the bells ringing would only be a pretend surrender/surprise attack. Or just some more time spent on seeing Dany's descent. Or maybe some flashbacks in Dany's mind of Cersei and Missandei or even Jorah (whose death she could emotionally blame on Cersei after she didn't send the promised aid). It just needed something more for the storytelling to pull me in more and make it seem more believable. I agree that this has been set up for a good while; the last execution was just very poor.
Jaime's return-to-form was also just dissatisfying in presentation. Maybe Brienne needed to die in the Battle of Winterfell to trigger this. Or just something more then "I'm going to King's Landing, bye now."
The writing has been pretty terrible this season (particularly the last three episodes) in the show's breakneck pace to finish everything. I think it's a bit more disorienting because that's the exact opposite way most shows die; nowadays, shows tend to drag on forever as long as they're making money, well past their best years. Instead, this last season especially, all development is tossed out the window, and without GRRM scripting all of his trademark brutal slayings, deus ex machina has protected all of the high-end main characters to a ridiculous degree more similar to... well, most other TV.
This is a common misconception on the color of the horse Death rides. Another one of the horsemen rides a white horse. That's not the color meant by "pale." Death's horse is actually green.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freya
Honestly I actually find this to.be the most realistic conclusion. I'm assuming most of you have never been in a toxic/abusive relationship or known someone who has. When it came to "my love is going to die" this was a pretty obvious choice to make if you think of jaime like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
Jaime going back made sense. Jaime fighting stupid euron did not.
Yes I'm sure the quote from revelations 6:8 is entirely a misconception and not where the quote is pulled from. It's a motif throughout history and media. At some point, a pale, white or grey horse becomes synonymous with it. Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord GolbezThis is a common misconception on the color of the horse Death rides. Another one of the horsemen rides a white horse. That's not the color meant by "pale." Death's horse is actually green.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freya
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
literally just this
friendly reminder that the targaryens haven't been the true king or queen of trout in like 25 years
Wrote this up to explain to a friend on fb. Seems like some of you may need it too :stare::
So she gets to westeros feeling like she's hot trout after all her conquests and is like, let me burn this evil lady's trout down. And all her advisers are like nooooo do it this other way. and by doing it that way, she has lost a majority of said advisors and supporters. Finally, she was like, no i'ma burninate, and it worked in her favor so she's questioning what the hell her advisors even said and learning that burninating is the better option here.
So, Jon goes "hey there are undead" and she goes "okay but cersei wont stop while we deal." So Tyrion says, well it'll work, just do it.
So they go on an adventure to get a wight, and she ends up losing one of her babies :(
That's okay though because they present it to cersei and cersei agrees to help. Tyrion was right. She deserved to trust his judgment. The death wasn't a useless sacrifice.
Until it is, because she doesn't show up. The first death WAS useless and now she has to fight her undead baby. They nearly all die because they didn't have help. Both her babies NEARLY die. The one person who has supported her and came back each time she got mad and sent him away, dies because of this. So she's mad. This bitch, how dare she. And these northerners? They don't care she just did all this for them. Lost all of this for them. They think jon was the best, even though she saved their asses with her fire breathing dragons and her armies that are mostly gone now. They don't even bother coming to thank her.
So she's like "this bitch, f this bitch, i'ma go back home and f this bi---" and she's caught off guard and this bitch kills her other child and kidnaps her bestie.
So tyrion pleads to her that he can get cersei to stop, so he tries and cersei cuts off her besties head. So now tyrion has failed her twice, managed to help get her children killed, her lead advisor/protector killed, and her bestie with his poor advice over this woman. Then she finds out her other advisor also is conspiring against her and it's implied he was literally trying to poison her at the beginning of the episode.
So Jon comes in and is "i love you" but then doesn't actually show that affection so she's like well smurf it. Everyone hates me so might as well make them really hate me.
So the bells are ringing, she's staring at this red keep. The people are surrendering, just like they did for her father, just like they are doing for cersei. There's no loyalty with them, the people don't care. Jon's claim would still cause people to question. So she decides, well fear it is. Even if he does claim, I've got a dragon and I just showed everyone what happens when you cross me.
So burninate. So in reality it isn't entirely Madness that made her do it, she didn't just snap. She most likely did it knowing full well why she did it. Which honestly, is even more horrendous cause she can't fall back on madness.
In blunt terms, the problem with GOT now is that they have put character beats before character motivation. Since they chose to barrel toward the ending quickly, which more on that in a moment, they basically had to shorthand everything and get every character to their endgame story line. I think the Xenogears metaphor is a great one, since we basically took the entire journey and got very used to the drawn out, sometimes subtle, sometimes overt ways of the plot clicking into place and now, at the end, we're just being read a summary of the plot and seeing the highlights.
For instance, clearly the endgame was for Dany to break bad. However, the motivation behind her choosing to do it in that moment, rather than say, when she lost her second dragon or as soon as Missy was beheaded, makes no sense. In both cases she just gets sad and leaves when frankly both of those called for her to unleash the fire in a more justified way. An obvious change to plot and timing that changes none of the story motivation: what if Rheagal had been killed during the sack of King's Landing, right when the bells ring and everyone stops for a moment. Perhaps some stray guards fired at Rheagal then and kill him when everyone thinks the battle is over, which causes Dany to fly into the rage she does. That to me makes more actual sense in the moment. Or what if she does attack the Red Keep but sees that Cersei has fled and essentially decides to burn the city down trying to find her? Both of those feel more earned than her just snapping NOW after all these other moments when it would have felt more justified.
It also frankly robs Dany of some more nuance, since her flying into a vengeful rage would make sense given all the betrayals in that moment instead of what is now clearly being explained as, "well, craziness runs in her family, so..."
Now, a brief aside, as I do wonder if deep down, the creators of GOT being given the keys to their own Star Wars kingdom perhaps heavily influenced a lot of these late game changes. I know a few of the crew that have worked on the show for a lot of its run and without giving away secrets can say this: they are among the best in the world and have given literally everything for a decade to put this show together for the world. Despite the plotting and writing issues, the scale and spectacle of this show is like nothing I have ever seen before and is jaw-droppingly beautiful and well crafted. (stray Starbucks cup or hand aside). The CleganeBowl was like some sort of video game finale come to life and I mean that in the best way possible.
However, what I can say, is that a lot of the people on the show were a bit burnt out from the constant grind of creating spectacle of this magnitude and while all of us would have preferred more episodes to flesh it out, it sounds like those at the top were ready for it to end. HBO was ready to back the truck up to give them whatever they wanted but their money and power couldn't convince them that a new challenge awaited, perhaps in a galaxy far, far away might prove to be more fun now. I'm not at all saying that their commitment or focus on GOT wavered, but it was no longer the laser it had been for most of the run and perhaps, with an eye toward the skies, the idea of big set pieces over plot gears slowing clicking into place took hold.
In a funny way, the big winner here ends up being GRRM because he got to see his vision come to life in an unbelievable way that still leaves so many wanting more and now he alone will be able to tell it.
Take care all.
I'm sorry, no matter what bad trout happened to her, she will never have an excuse to attack the innocent people of King's Landing. Cersei? Yes. Cersei's armies? Yes, until they, you know...surrendered? But just a trout ton of people who literally had nothing to do with anything? No, smurf that.
Non-constitutional monarchies are bad, and it shouldn't really be a surprise that anyone who wants to be a dictator turns out to be mad or evil. That being said, Dany's plot-line was clearly a bit rushed.
That's my two cents. :shrug:
Basically this, but I do see some people (around the web-o-sphere) saying "With all she's been through, do you blame her?" Well, yes. Yes I do. There's snapping, then there's massacring innocent people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Carnelian
Oh, for sure. Her actions cannot be justified. Her motivation for doing it and the timing of it, however, very much could have been better handled. Instead, she's just replaced Cersei as the final boss, instead of being the tragic downfall of a layered character. If somehow the final episode is all about the internal workings of her choices, then okay, maybe we can re-evaluate everything, but I kind of feel like it'll be a lot of her looking strong, regal and ruthless while the rest of the characters plot her downfall only for some last minute thing to kill her in the end.
Take care all.
Prediction: She nicks her leg on one of Drogon's claws and dies of an infected wound.
Well, we know sam's "get rekt kc" rep is totally appropriate commentary when she herself changes her opinion based on whatever freefolk decides is the ongoing narrative. So thanks for that Sam, your opinion, that is just what you read on the sub full of angry neckbeards, is so well spoken and nuanced. Your completely independent commentary is really such a nice thing to have around here.
I'm not saying her burning people was a GOOD thing. It's just not some crazy out of left field thing when she's literally been saying she'd do it for ageshttps://media2.giphy.com/media/rPlo269QmjXmU/giphy.gif. She failed at diplomacy in Meereen and only "succeeded" when she burninated everything. Yes, it could have used more fleshing out but no, it's not out of nowhere. Just cause the people were bad people before doesn't mean her use of violence and force wasn't still an issue over using diplomacy.
This is her Nuke.
Japan was pretty much rendered useless by the US before we dropped the Nukes. We could have waited it out, fought a few more battles, taken it all by ground/sky force until they gave up OR we dropped nukes. We dropped them and they went "HOLY smurf okay" and then everyone else went "HOLY CRAP okay". Those cities were also full of innocents as well. That's what dany just did. It set it up that no one was going to love her. Everyone was going to betray her and there was Jon who now has a more legitimate claim. So, drop the nuke so no one questions her right because, well a nuke. These people weren't going to rise up and join her like the slaves did. So, nuke em.
I mean, just cause you don't like that she did it. Because it is horrendous. Doesn't mean it was just out of nowhere. And if you think it is, i'm wondering if we're even watching the same show with how people missed all the red flags.
Maybe in a twist one of Hot Pie's hot pies will be undercooked and Dany will die of a stomach issue?
The red flags were there for sure but the timing doesn't bare it out. Even in the commentary about the episode, the creators say Dany just made the decision when she saw the Red Keep, which again, why NOW and not when her other dragon or her best friend were killed? And why not attack the Red Keep FIRST? That's my real issue, as it again takes away the layers and just makes her capital E evil.
Take care all.
I've never said it was out of nowhere. Mad Queen Dany has been hinted at since s1 when she dead eyed and snarked while her brother burned to death. My issue is more with people who think what she did was justified, and I've seen that a lot. I do think that her turn from hints of madness to full on bat trout was kind of rapid, though.
If anything, the hill I'm going to die on is that what they did to Jaime was inexcusable. He already had his Cersei relapse in s7. The whole "he's a Cersei addict, of course he's going to go back" is just. Nah.
I'm glad you've never been in an abusive relationship like that then, sam.
and it's not justified, she SHOULDN'T do it. But it's not just bad writing that she did. They could have spent more time getting there, yes. But it isn't poor writing that she went to the nuke option.
Daenerys has a history of violence but that's irrelevant. She also has a history of red lines. She has never, ever, used violence indiscriminately up until now. It's like if Cersei had suddenly ordered the Mountain to kill Myrcella and saying "aha! Cersei is a violent character who has ordered numerous deaths. This makes sense!"
Daenerys' red lines are:
1) If you are an innocent
2) If you bend the knee and submit
Time and time again you see her trying to get peace with her enemies through diplomacy (Yunkai, Meereen, the Tarlys, Cersei, even Jon Snow) and agreeing not to do trout if they surrender. And when they do bend the knee, she hasn't done a god damn thing. It's when they don't that she brings out Fire and Blood. Even then, she insists children be spared (see Astapor and "Harm no child") and the death of Zalla haunts her and causes her to chain up the dragons.
King's Landing surrendered, it was full of innocents and yet she crossed those two red lines anyway. Which I'm fine with, people change, their values change, their beliefs change and that makes an interesting character. But I don't find her sudden abandonment of her previous moral code out of nowhere to be believable.
And yes, really, it's out of nowhere.
Has Daenerys inflicting violence upon her enemies been shown? Yes of course.
Has her abandonment of that code, of killing those who surrender and killing innocents even been teased? No.
Also in the WW2 analogy, this would be the Empire of Japan surrendering and then the US dropping more atomic bombs on them anyway. Which would be both a war crime and poor character development for President Truman.
lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
I present Hizdahr zo Loraq
"Is it justice to answer one crime with another?" yeah he ended up being a trout but whatever the point still is pretty relevant and this was back in season 4. If she didn't find someone to be innocent, she didn't give a smurf.
If in her mind, these people aren't innocent, then the act was okay and justice for everything the city and the leaders put her and her family through. They "surrendered" but were they supporting her? no. They were just giving up. We, of course, don't know anymore since we saw the people's perspective, not hers.
I liked one comment I read that, had the show chosen to take this direction (and indicate it on screen, not just the Behind the Scenes) would have been really good.
Basically, her seeing how quickly and easily the city fell, and how willing everyone was to surrender once they saw her dragon break through the gates and her army take down the Golden Company. And realizing that, had she actually just marched straight to King's Landing like she wanted, she would've won without nearly and bloodshed. That yes, she's lost everything, but she really didn't have to. And then just saying smurf it all to hell and snapping.
Or, realizing she's won a prize she didn't really want all that much (re: her hating ruling in Meereen) and burning it all next episode when she realize she's spent her whole life on vengeance and retribution for something that feels meaningless once she conquers it. Especially given that the people don't love her.
man, i'm going to miss when this show is over, this is the most active eoff has been in years xD
This has always been enough for her before when it comes to war, as far as I recall. And that's the actual soldiers on the enemy lines who drop weapons, let alone citizens who are hiding in buildings clutching their family.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freya
Also, this got me:
https://i.imgur.com/Z24QE4s.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/D8wT9MK.jpg
At this point, the only ending I'll accept is someone finally petting Ghost and this:
Attachment 76264
Take care all.
It comes down to perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx
As you know in the lore/history, this has been a land of Targaryen rule for 300 years. Bobby B and the Bois came and took it by conquest only recently, so when Dany grows up she has every right to think the throne is being temporarily held by a usurper. The entire history of Westoros up to that point is Fire & Blood.
A usurper is by definition a person who takes a position of power by force.
There's a lot of interesting conversation to be had about conquest vs birthright in a land without democracy. Even now the tables have kind of shifted to Jon having the birthright, despite not wanting it, and Dany taking it by conquest.
Basically, having a new anus bleach the throne doesn't necessarily wipe the slate clean of claims to it, because this is a new precedent.
That's all true, I think people who just bring up Targaryen birthright forget that the Targaryens only ever had the throne because of conquest.*
*yes, you can argue that technically they made the throne, but you understand where I'm getting at
Whether or not we like it, up until Sunday, Cersei Lannister was the rightful ruler of Westeros. She took the throne, she kept it, the people accepted her authority.
I'd just like to do a shout-out to Robert Baratheon. Everybody says he was a bad king but at least he picked a damn good Hand and let him do all the managing, not to mention he had the foresight to order a hit on the girl who ended up burninating King's Landing (on top of being the direct cause of the Night King being able to get past the wall)
I appreciate that you're now using the term burninating as well.
The quote is a translation. The Bible wasn't originally written in English. "Pale" is an adequate translation. White is not. The color is green. Just because "pale" can mean white doesn't mean it always does. In this case it definitively does not. If your point is that GOT was trying to evoke a pale horse, I'm not disputing that. It still springs from a misconception of the color meant by "pale."Quote:
Originally Posted by FreyaHonestly I actually find this to.be the most realistic conclusion. I'm assuming most of you have never been in a toxic/abusive relationship or known someone who has. When it came to "my love is going to die" this was a pretty obvious choice to make if you think of jaime like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
Jaime going back made sense. Jaime fighting stupid euron did not.
Yes I'm sure the quote from revelations 6:8 is entirely a misconception and not where the quote is pulled from. It's a motif throughout history and media. At some point, a pale, white or grey horse becomes synonymous with it. Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord GolbezThis is a common misconception on the color of the horse Death rides. Another one of the horsemen rides a white horse. That's not the color meant by "pale." Death's horse is actually green.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freya
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.
Okay but at this point it means pale after hundreds and hundreds of years meaning that and having been used across how much media and historical references.
Like your arguement is pedantic here just to point out what now? That nearly a thousand years of history is... wrong and a translation error? Well unfortunately it now has hundreds of years as that so it's taken a life of it's own.
Good job on informing us of that translation error though.
You keep acting like I'm saying "pale" is wrong. I'm not saying "pale" is wrong, I'm saying "white" is wrong. Whether chloros is necessarily "pale" or not, I'm not enough of an expert to know, but I do know it's green. Pale seems like a good poetic translation to me to convey the sickly nature of the coloration, but it's also ambiguous because it can lead people to think it means "white."
You wash your filthy mouth out immediately.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Captain
Far too many problems with that episode that should be allowed in 120 minutes.
- Jaime's ridiculous fight with Euron
- Dany's descent, despite there being signs, was nowhere near adequately led up to
- Cersei dying by bricks
- Arya surviving seventeen times when she should have been toast
- Jon reduced to a simpleton who can only say "She's/you're my queen" and "I don't want it"
- Having an all-seeing Oracle in Bran and decide not to utilize him in any way.
- The resurrection of the Dothraki
- Varys getting caught out ridiculously easily
...and can we all have a collective laugh at the Golden Company being the most hilarious waste of money ever?
It feels a bit like Dany is stuck in the character arc she should be having, but having it sold pretty smurfing poorly. She is far more selfish, spiteful, and unfair at heart than she's willing to admit to herself, and she's pursuing a goal that she never really wanted for reasons she probably doesn't even get herself. Her happiest possible life would've been just being Khal Drogo's wife for an entire lifetime, she was never meant to be a ruler, or a conqueror for that matter. However, she is extremely entitled to *being just that*, and the moment she set her eyes on that, her life was always going to end in misery, because the kind of life that makes her happy is and remains a far simpler one of her dedicating herself to a guy and pleasing him. But she could never admit this to herself since Season 2.
Really it's already since then that she's been guided by wanting her pain and hatred validated and to enact vengeance, rather than actually feeling compassionate towards other victims. And in Essos this worked out pretty well for her overall. She just needed to have the force to take from the evil men their ability to do evil, and she'd be the good and righteous one. All the while she had the space to come to terms with her own vulnerability. She always had Jorah, Jorah who was there even when she was merely Khal Drogo's wife, who still calls her by the name Khaleesi she has the fondest memories of, the one person who truly cared about her for who she is. And while their relationship has been rocky, she was never left hanging for too long and could rely on him in her heart.
Ever since leaving Essos one part of her has been emphasized over and over again, which is that she ultimately puts her ego and ambitions before the good of others. This is where she and Jon fundamentally differ because Jon has a truly genuine lack of ambition and simply wants to do right by others. He thought Dany was the same when she came for him beyond the wall and was even willing to risk losing one of her own babies, but that wasn't ever really who she was; she was just desperately trying to reclaim something she felt a spark of that she'd lost so long ago; a life as a girl in love. It's ironic in the end, that Jon reinforcing Dany as his queen was the decisive straw that their relationship would be built on falsehoods, and really sewed the seeds for this episode already.
And then these last few episodes just everything came crashing down for her in the worst possible ways. Jorah dies, the cracks between Jon and her coming to a head, her false goal being put in jeopardy, and even her advisors who really ultimately were an anchor for her that she was still the righteous one started turning on her or failing her. The Dany we're seeing right now is who she is in the end, when pushed to the brink. She doesn't really care about the suffering of common people, she never did. It was a weapon for her to be the moral and righteous one, to enact her vengeance on the same kind of bulltroutters and assholes that tore her ideal life away from her. But she's fallen so far. She could've had love with Jon. But she's lost that entirely. She has nothing. And she never will have anything again. The end of the Last War might as well be her death. Honestly at this point I hope the series ends with her ascending and then just committing suicide because "what the hell is the point of going on anymore", it'd probably at least get some people thinking about this series more deeply again. Alas I kinda doubt it.
Though this is also why I think leading it back to her cold eyes at Viserys burning up is entirely misguided. That and this are *nothing* alike. Even if she was a truly compassionate person, she still easily could've been that cold to that monster Viserys.
I think the Golden company being pushovers is the worst part. Every battle this season has been so ridiculously lopsided. It's really hard to swallow.
This all reminds me of when Stone Cold Steve Austin turned heel. Stone Cold was never the babyface, but more of an anti-hero who did what ever he wanted yet still had sort of a code he lived by. And the fans appreciated him for it. For some reason they decided he would turn heel, so they dropped several not-so-subtle hints of it that all seemed forced and the fans weren't buying it. Eventually they said smurf it and just had him join up with Vince McMahon. Yeah, the signs were there but the turn was sudden and forced and the fans were befuddled by it.
Daenerys won the Royal Rumble of Thrones and is now the Westeros Heavyweight Champion. Let's see how long her title reign is. Can you smell what the Bronn is cooking?
You know what else is wrong with the show? They don't talk about milk of the poppy anymore.
You know what else is wrong with the show? Blackwater bay just keeps changing in size and structure. Stannis could have easily avoided wildfire if it looked like what Euron was at.
Speaking of Stannis and Blackwater, what Davos said in this episode is now amusing:
heh, silly davos.
Like, I know this is just me being ornery right now in regards to your strangely off-topic posts on what you think a word is from an old translation from hundreds of years ago while ignoring its meaning for those hundreds of years since but... but I just can't help myself. Someone, please stop me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Golbez
...
...
THAT SAID
Glad we cleared simple word meaning up.Quote:
pale
/pāl/
adjective
1. light in color or having little color.
"choose pale floral patterns for walls"
synonyms: light, light-colored, pastel, neutral, light-toned, muted, subtle, soft, low-key, restrained;
verb
1. become pale in one's face from shock or fear.
"I paled at the thought of what she might say"
synonyms: go/turn white, grow/turn/become pale, blanch, blench, lose color;
Haha, remember how only 4 episodes he was proposing Jon and Daenerys get married so Westeros could be ruled by "a good man, and a just woman"?
https://i.imgur.com/hx1jDxZ.gif
Something can be light in color, hence "pale," without being white. White is always pale, but pale isn't always white. I also don't know what evidence you have that "pale," specifically in reference to the biblical passage, has been interpreted as white for hundreds of years. It may have, but I know of no evidence for this.
I mean I literally linked you the technical description that includes the word white. I don't know what more you want here.
I have to assume you're deliberately troutposting because the alternative explanation would be that you truly don't understand how dictionaries work.
You need to learn the actual definition of troutposting. troutposting is always deliberate.
Me: *links you the dictionary description that lists whiteQuote:
Originally Posted by Lord Golbez
You: "It has nothing to do with white. Learn how dictionaries work"
Me:
https://media1.giphy.com/media/BredP...&rid=giphy.gifhttps://media2.giphy.com/media/12u04...&rid=giphy.gif
Regardless of your weird word obsession. I feel they used the PALE WHITE HORSE to be a "hehe death rides a pale horse, arya is basically death as she killed it and not todayed it lol" but then could fall back on "well, of course, we didn't mean to have Christian imagery in this show. it just showed a white noble thing in such a disaster zone"
Personally, I'm a fan of it being Bran as an Uber to pick her up.
It was shadowfax, taking a quick trip from one fantasy realm to another.
Okay. You're probably right. I don't expect the GOT showrunners know the Greek text or are particularly well-schooled in Biblical lore in general, so yeah, it's pretty likely. I'd be happier though if they found some excuse to give it a greenish hue. Maybe some grass stains. To be fair to them though, the ash covering the horse may be meant to convey the same idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freya
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
Ah, those naive and innocent days. I can't believe this wild smurfing ride is coming to an end in a few days. God damn. What an eight years it's been. Also lol "the midget". I legitimately didn't know Tyrion's name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic (when Ned got chopped)
Me too, man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
This part holds up pretty well.
The second part holds up pretty well. Unfortunately I did immediately read them all after season 1 ended. Because Robb was going to team up with Renly, his aunt's forces in the Vale and Theon's Iron Islands kin, capture King's Landing and Joffrey would get what was coming to him.
I mean
eventually that last thing happened, so
Oof. You should join a tourney.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Golbez
Even the Knight of Flowers, with all his jousting capabilities, would be envious of that reach.
People on Twitter : Don't watch GoT, it's not worth it, don't even start.
Me who hasn't watched a single episode :
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/7c/ca/0f/7...de9f28f6d4.jpg
In the end, the ride is/was still worth it and especially in light of how it's finishing, once again the old cliche is true: "it's the journey, not the destination". For 6+ seasons, GoT was some of the most compelling TV I've ever witnessed and none of that will change even if the last 2 seasons have been the weakest.
Endings are hard, especially when you decide to tie yourself into a knot first.
Reflecting back a bit, what do you think was the peak of the show? The Red Wedding? Hardhome? Hodor?
Take care all.
Honestly just the general small-time dialogue. Things like Tyrion and Tywin talking together. That stuff ruled.
Flashback to when Euron Greyjoy hosted the 2014 Eurovision Song Contest.
Attachment 76278
#Icelandtowin
OMG, now I know where I recognised him from! 2014 was a good Eurovision year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba
So my theory of tonight's final episode.
I think Dany will get killed by jon early on and then maybe Greyworm kills him. I don't think Jon is making it out alive either. I hope they at least give some time to show that the country isn't absolute smurfed. But who knows what we'll get heh.
I've stayed 100% leak free.
So Jinx after tonight's episode lemmino if any of the leaks you read were spot on for the finale, or if the show was able to successfully pull a switcharoo on the audience with the alternate scenes they filmed or w/e
So far the leaks have been 100% accurate since episode 4, but I'll definitely be sharing with the class after the finale airs!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Wolf Leonhart
However, apparently D&D called Kit in a few days ago to talk about something, and six minutes has been shaved off the air time. So who knows what we're losing there.
EDIT: The image has been baleeted, but I remember the biggest key points.
The leaks were correct.
Things that didn't show up in the leaks that had me pleasantly surprised:
-Tyrion finding Jaime; sad, but beautiful
-Yara being at Tyrion's trial. Also, as much as I hated Daenerys, staying loyal to her
-Edmure showing up again only to be a total smurfing diptrout
-Brienne writing Jaime's story (not completely unexpected)
-POD BEING A MOTHERSMURFING KNIGHT OF THE KING'S GUARD
-Davos being Master of Ships (he was said to be on the small council, but this is the perfect job for him)
-Tyrion never being able to finish that goddamn joke, A+
Things that I knew were coming that had me very happy:
-Jon killing Daenerys
-SWEET ROBIN
-Sansa being the Queen in the North
Things that I knew were coming, but I thought I'd hate but I actually ain't mad about:
-Drogon carrying off Daenerys' body (in the leaks it said he carried her away on his back...how the f was she supposed to get up there)
-Arya going west
Things that I knew were coming and will never stop being smurfing stupid:
-Bronn being on the small council
-Bran being the king
The best part about this is that Denmark and I unintentionally named our dog after the winner of the Game of Thrones. Go us! Go Brandog Stark!
EDIT: I forgot that s h i t is filtered to trout, and that's very appropriate. Edmure is a diptrout.
Ghost got petted!
Final image my dudes.
Attachment 76279
Shout out to the Prince of Dorne et all for making an appearance! I'll take the L on that one. Well, half an L, it didn't end up having an influence on the war. I do love that we got one final round table with the leaders of each respective area. Good to see Yara and Sam again.
Royce said "I!" and then Sweet Robin was like "yeah ok".
Before you all take turns slam dunking the episode and each other I just want to start this off with a really well done compliment to the show's imagery. These are two of my favorite moments the show has ever captured.
Attachment 76280
Attachment 76281
Y'all can ask Denmark, at that shot of Daenerys I literally said, "Oh, WOW."
gg btw on the Nazi imagery this episode
does anyone else feel strangely uncomfortable that sweet robin got hot
Yeah I was confused who it was at first until I realized it was Robin.
I lold at sam trying to be all "democracy!" And they shut it down ha.
And technically I wasnt wrong for picking Sansa as my queen ha, she did become a queen.
In general, I figured it wouldnt be that amazing given how grand the story was and how we had to wrap it up. I feel this happens with a lot of big shows, the endings are never too satisfying. I remember all the hubbub about BSGs ending but now years later people view it better.
That'll probably be the case here too.
It would have been better if we'd had s7 and s8 with a 10 episode order, with a 10 episode s9 like HBO wanted.
I'll say this: I feel better about this episode than I felt three weeks ago after the ending of The Long Night. My initial reaction to The Long Night was HOLY trout AMAZING and within 10 minutes I hated it (this is without the influence of freefolk, by the way).
Meanwhile I knew what was going to happen going in, and I don't really hate it so much. Maybe because I've known for the last couple of weeks what would happen, and I tempered my expectations. Probably what I'll feel soon is that I'll never love it, but it's fine. Not good, certainly not great, but it's meh and whatever.
Also there really isnt a nights watch and all the freefolk already pledged allegiance to Jon so did jon just basically become king beyond the wall?
I think that was sort of the implication.
If not King Beyond the Wall, I think we are more or less supposed to believe that he took the freefolk North and doesn't plan on coming back. Honestly? I'm actually really okay with that ending. His whole thing has been not wanting to be a leader (or a king), and going north with a people he'd previously hated, but learned to respect, and later love to live his life out as a man without a sovereign is very much in character.
Also, Tormund is his best friend (smurf you Sam, you're a bad character and always have been) and seeing their relationship build over the series from hatred and mockery, to distrust, to tentative allyship, to friendship, to the love of brothers has been one of my favorite parts. Jon broing out with Tormund is a-okay with me.
I didn't really have a problem with anything other than the shortened seasons stifling the reward of every single payoff. The deterioration of Jon and Dany's relationship would have carried more weight if people even had time to get used to them actually being in one. Yeah we've had 2 years, but in show time they shacked up in S7E7 and already started to have lineage conflict in S8E3.
Also did Bran really say "I don't want it" and "Why do you think I'm here" in the same scene?
I don't know maybe I just took for granted that the world was round but apparently if you sail west of Westoros you either:
1. Fall off the face of the Earth
2. Find unexplored land I guess
3. Wave hello to Daario cause actually yes the world is round and you're in Essos now
Nah the what shadowlands? That's what's on the other side of Essos. Which if I recall in the books theres stories there about undead winter creatures there too but who knows if that's the same. But yeah it's like bravos and mareen on one side, then you've got the dothraki grasslands then the shadow lands I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Wolf Leonhart
Yeah, Essos apparently dealt with its own Long Winter, but we haven't gotten much info on that.
Drogon probably went to Valryia or Asshai.
The deterioration of Jon and Dany would have worked if a.) Jon had show any affection for her at all this season b.) Kit and Emilia had any chemistry at all. I know, I know. I've slagged Emilia Clarke off for 7 years. But she had chemistry with Drogo, and Daario, and Jorah. Just like...none with Kit. I don't get it. Likewise with him. He had more chemistry with Grey Worm when they were about to pop off.
who cares if jon killed dany, their relationship meant nothing, and neither did him killing her. literally anyone else kill her would have made more sense.
I was amused how arya popped up and hes like whoa wtf
Yeah so I was pretty satisfied with this overall.
Chaos is a ladder but a few rungs were missing.
So hey how did we tally in our death poll.
Brienne writing Jaime's entry and SER PODRICK PAYNE OF THE KINGSGUARD made me happy. I'm also happy for Jon and Ghost, Tormund and the Free Folk.
Also at least Bronn got to do what he loves, rolling around in giant piles of coins.seriously, was coming here to post that. wtf sweetrobin guess all that breast milk paid offQuote:
Originally Posted by Jinx
So, if you HAD to pick from the known living (Westeros-based) cast for Master of Whispers and Master of War, who would you go for?
There aren't many people to choose from that are (show) named characters! Assuming the North is discounted and maesters, Kingsguard etc. are not eligible here are your options:
- Edmure Tully
- Robin Arryn
- Yohn Royce
- Gendry Baratheon
- Unnamed Dornish Prince
- Yara Greyjoy
- Gilly
- Melessa Tarly
- Talla Tarly
- Ser Ilyn Payne (we never saw him die!)
- I guess all of the Frey women?
Yohn Royce is the obvious choice for Master of War. smurf it, let's hire Gilly as Master of Whispers. She uncovered the "Raggar" Targaryen plot after all.
Yohn Royce was also going to be my choice for Master of War.
If Arya hadn't smurfed off to Westereros, I'd say her abilities would have made her the perfect Master of Whisperers. But let's be real here: no one's topping Varys, so why even bother? smurf it, sure, Gilly. Why not.
it's cool that arya got to go to valinor
Daenerys vs Cersei turned out to be Trump vs Hillary all over again.
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I actually made this lol
The world can be round AND there can be undiscovered land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Wolf Leonhart
Speaking of, I'm DEFINITELY going to make and then post some rubbish memes on here after I've actually watched the episode later today. You've been warned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx
stolen from got shameposting
Attachment 76283
all im going to say is that this episode dissapointed me in so. many. ways.
Announcing the winner of my little deathpool! Person with the fewest incorrect guesses gets to subvert our expectations and become King of Westeros at the eleventh hour!
Heather....................18
Freya.......................16
Psychotic..................13
Denmark..................12
Jinx.........................10
Kalevala...................10
Shauna......................9
And the winner is...
Bubba........................6
Lone Wolf Leonheart.....5
Congrats on the win! Clearly someone had a leak of the scripts this season! DM me your address for a small, dumb prize if you'd like. :D
There is some real world precedent for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord GolbezThe world can be round AND there can be undiscovered land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Wolf Leonhart
To be fair, what Lone Wolf said doesn't discount that in any way. It's just that #2 can happen if the world is round OR flat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord GolbezThe world can be round AND there can be undiscovered land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Wolf Leonhart
The ending was fine. Sansa got her dues, which is all that I care about, I guess?
Except for the whole... Bran decision. I don't know why they did the thing.
Making him king? Hard to find a better one than someone who doesn't want it for all the right reasons and also has all of human history and seemingly the future at his finger tips so he can guide people well.
>"doesn't want it"
>"starts the war that means he'll get it"
He just doctor stranged it. He made sure to manipulate it so the only outcome would be that he's king? :D
Edmure was robbed.
that's it, show's over (literally)
mods please close thread, we ain't topping this
Attachment 76284
How did Bran start the war? Heck I'm not even sure if anything he did really altered the ultimate course of Jon and Daenerys' relationship, but that would be the closest to manipulating his way to the crown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx
I am happy enough with this finale.
Apart from Bran being crowned king... I'm still undecided on.
Also I'm sure all those shots of Arya sailing away on a boat are supposed to make me want an All Aboard for Arya's Audacious Adventures Around the World (working title) spin-off, but nah... it did nothing for me.
Yeah obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord GolbezThe world can be round AND there can be undiscovered land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Wolf Leonhart
Do you ever join a thread to contribute an original thought to the discussion or does it always have to be some pedantic and/or condescending rebuttal to another poster?
Ride your pale green horse in a more positive direction my dude.
Just thinking about the last parts of the episode again...
Hand meeting on who to appointment for the missing positions and general day to day business of the realm. Bran, in classic Bran fashion, smurfs off to go worg into animal (this time, a Dragon... quite why he didn't do that during the Long Night we'll never know). Classic Bran, shirking the responsibility to someone else. 10/10 King.
:lol:
In the Game of Memes, you post, or you die.
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Appently IHW lost his mind when he read the script and thought it was all a big joke.
In the end, reverse engineering the story to go from the end points to give some sort of coherent reasons why proved just too much for the lack of time afforded. It got where it needed to go but essentially felt like a wikipedia page explaining the plot by the end, "Jon and Dany fall in love, Jon finds out his secret, Dany doesn't like it, Dany gets mad, goes mad, Jon kills Dany".
My only real qualms about this logically were twofold: How in the heck did Grey Worm and the apparently THOUSANDS of respawned Dothraki not gut Jon the instant he came out of the throne room? Suddenly, they show him mercy and just lock him up when they've been slitting throats of anyone that looks at them funny? Then, how does Jon's background not even come up at all in the Dragonpit? No one there thinks that maybe Jon, like most every other leader in Westeros' history, should be the next king because he killed to get there? Jon wouldn't have accepted it of course, but just banishing him instead of him choosing to leave took the agency out of the character's hands and felt so strange after all the years of buildup.
Plus, I guess we're meant to understand the point of him coming back to life was to take down Dany? Tough break for those star-crossed lovers.
Most characters finished in places that felt true to them, save Bran, who the show so horribly bungled and frankly made into the least interesting character on the show bar none. I would have to imagine that those mythic still to come books will flesh this out more and explain what the heck is up with him.
Though Game of Thrones has ended, it's only for now. This is some powerful IP that I fully expect to be used over and over again, not just with prequels but with some more one off stories down the road. We joke about the Adventures of Arya, but don't doubt HBO or Apple or Netflix aren't already scheming how to make that into a limited run series.
Take care all.
Let it be known LWL the first of his name, father of ducks and the great grass memes called his kingship back in March with a vision the likes of which even the three eyed raven would be envious of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Wolf Leonhart
IT MELTED! IT smurfING MELTED! I WIN THE GAME OF THRONES!!!!!:cheer::cheer::chocobo:Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
Considering I had zero access to the leaked scripts I think I did pretty well!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx
Attachment 76292
"Look, I'm not much good at big speeches, and I know GoT hasn't been an easy show to get on with. And I know that given the choice, I probably wouldn't have chosen Bran for king. But, I just want to say... that over the years... I have to come to regard it... as... a show... I watched."
If anyone is interested, here is the full joke that Tryion never got to tell...
(SPOILER)
Tyrion walks into a brothel with a honeycomb and a jackass.
Madame: What can we do for you?
Tyrion: I need a woman to lay with, for mine has left me.
Madame: Whatever for? And what's with the honeycomb and the mule?
Tyrion: My woman found a genie in a bottle and he granted her three wishes. The first was for a house fit for a queen, so he gave her this damn honeycomb. The second wish was that she have the nicest ass in all the land, so he gave her this damn donkey...
Madame: And what about the third wish?
Tyrion: Well... she asked the genie to make my cock hang down past my knee.
Madame: Well that one's not so bad eh?
Tyrion: Not so bad!? I used to be six foot three!
HBO's airing a documentary tonight called "The Last Watch", trying to milk that one last weekend of Game of Thrones viewership.
Looks to be full of behind the scenes, table reads, make up, set building, things of that nature.
If anyone wants to squeeze one more weekend out of this thread I'll be watching this and I'll be here afterwards to talk about it with anyone else who does.
And then my watch will end. But you know. Until the prequels start up.
The set creations are so amazing. It's wild that it took 7 months to build King's Landing from the bottom up. I figured they might have used some pre-existing cathedral type building somewhere or something.
It was really cool seeing the table read and seeing the cast's reactions as they read what would happen to them for the first time.
The head of snow said that they basically just used wet paper in their sets. That's a really cool effect. Obviously it's real snow when they shoot in places like Iceland.
Vladimir Furdik/The Night King is so damn awesome. He's a man of many hats. Helping with the choreography and stunt work when he isn't behind the mask.
Overall it's a cool documentary, but at a 2 hour runtime it could have been cut in half tbh. There's a lot of neat stuff here but there's only so much I need to see of like seeing the extra's tent get built or w/e. Part's like that were just general behind the scenes stuff that really could have applied to any show and wasn't GoT specific.
So, after this season left me unsatisfied I started re-reading A Game of Thrones. My god, this book is so good. I'd forgotten how wonderful it was. The pacing is superb and the way Martin keeps your interest in so many plot threads is excellent. I think I am enjoying it even more from the perspective of knowing how it turns out and who all the random side characters are because there's so many little nuances and subtleties to pick up on. If anyone is bored I really recommend doing so (and then we can nerd out and share our thoughts together :flirt:)
I think the failure of the last season or two of the show has kind of put Martin's struggles with TWoW into perspective. It must be a nightmare to bring all of these threads together neatly. I wonder how much of the final two seasons will happen in the books. I suspect a lot of the fan service (Gendry x Arya, Brienne x Jaime, Lyanna, Arya in general actually etc) will not make it. I'm entirely convinced the Night King as we knew him in the show won't be in it.
I'm actually rereading the series now too. You want to maybe make a discussion thread for it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
And yes, it's so smurfing good. Like you said, it's interesting reading it through the scope of what we know now. I can see some possible hints about Bran's fate especially, in Ned's musings.
I'm really interested to see what happens to book Tyrion, since they white-washed the trout out of him in the show. I understand they did it because Peter Dinklage made him so beloved, but I would have liked to see him go dark. He has the acting chops for it.
Where he wonders if Bran can be the High Septon? I was amused by that. That's not even your religion!
Yeah, I think Tyrion was wasted in the show. I am happy to believe the dark Tyrion theories so far although I'll be thinking closely about them on the re-read.
I'll tell you who comes out of it surprisingly well: Littlefinger. He's genuinely funny in this book and although there's a couple of awkward moments with Cat/Sansa he doesn't come across as badly as he does in the show. His "ahh don't trust me I'm a liar!" manner is disarming and, from Ned's perspective, it seems like he's genuinely trying to help the Starks. Of course, with knowledge from other chapters, specifically Tyrion's, you know he's full of trout about the Valyrian steel dagger.
In general I actually dislike the characterisation of Ned as dumb, particularly when it was Sansa of all people (in the show) calling him that - as if she had any idea what he was actually up to in King's Landing with investigating Jon Arryn and the bastards. He was fully smurfing aware of the risks of what he was doing and how dangerous it was. He took steps to minimise the damage and tried to get the girls out, though Sansa smurfed it up (and I don't mean that unkindly, she was a young girl who was smitten)
Also I think that honour inspires a hell of a lot of loyalty for him and his children down the line. It was not pointless! I believe that in the end, the love for Ned and his honour will really help House Stark.
Yes, exactly that part! Although you're right about him not being of the Seven faith and so Bran becoming High Septon is actually quite funny.
What Tyrion theories have you read?
Book Varys is kind of the smurfing worst, though. The way he's portrayed in the show makes him seem like so much more of a threat, although I suppose, his simpering in the books is just another one of his disguises. Of course, they smurfed up Varys so badly in the show (like pretty much everything else).
Also, I'm very, very glad you said that about Sansa. There are a lot of men (especially) who hate Sansa because she "betrayed" her family, forgetting that in the show she's 13, and in the books she's 11. She went to someone who had been kind to her, who she thought she could trust. Once her father was killed, she stopped trusting the Lannisters and everything she did was either to survive or to try and escape them. She's a literal child. People are unwilling to forgive her earlier chapters--literally written to sound like a bratty child--for the growth that she shows. I don't know, Sansa isn't like a big fave of mine (she's fine, I like her), but I will smurfing stan her until my dying breath because neckbeards can't stand that sometimes women--or in this case, a little girl--make mistakes.
On this reread I have to say that I'm hating Bran's chapters. He just isn't interesting to me. At all. Jon's a little better this time around, Arya's boring, Ned's great, Catelyn's decent, Daenerys is good, Tyrion's the best.
Also, I'm of the opinion that fAegon is real Aegon, but neither Illyrio or Varys was aware of the annulment of Elia and Rhaegar's marriage (and I do think they'll go annulment route instead of double marriage a la Aegon I) and I believe that information will come to light, and he'll find out his claim to the throne isn't valid. I believe he will actually prove himself to be a very good ruler, and that Illyrio and Varys' plan will have worked, but finding out this information will smurf everything up, and Dany will yeet him. The people will be profoundly unhappy that she removes someone they love, (especially if she does so by burning King's Landing). Then find out that Jon is actually Rhaegar's heir. This is my own theory, not something I've read elsewhere. I think it will especially tie in with the theme that those who should have the right to rule are those who are willing to do best by the people they rule.
Dark Tyrion? Mostly the Meereenese Blot and Poor Quentyn. I do like the idea of him going up against Varys with his own Targaryen in the form of Daenerys. It would certainly make for more intrigue than the lol u have no cock pointless banter they had in the show. Given how full of rage and bitterness he is at the end of ADWD I can really see him and Daenerys going full Fire and Blood. If anything he will be egging her on, not the other way around.
I actually love simpering Varys. It's the mummer training but I love how he seems sincerely shocked and saddened by every last development, like how he seems moved to his very core about Sansa's love for Joffrey/her father.
Yeah there is nothing wrong with what Sansa did. She was kept - deliberately so - in the dark about the danger they were in and the game of thrones. She'd just been to a tourney and saw the handsome Knight of Flowers who gave her a special red rose, she had her beloved Joffrey - who was very capable of being sweet and chivalrous when it suited him and I think that's overlooked - she was becoming friends with the Queen and it was everything she'd ever dreamed of. Of course she'd go to the Queen to try to sort everything out when she thought she was being made to return to Winterfell for being bad.
As for writing the infamous letters that offended Arya in the show, again, of course she wrote them. Ooh, little Lyanna Mormont would say no to the Lannisters, would she? Would she bollocks. Sansa was locked in a tower for several days an has been told she has traitor's blood and can't marry Joffrey. She trusts, loves, worships Cersei. Because she's the Queen. That's it. That's all there is to it. Why wouldn't she write letters as the Queen asks?
I don't mind Bran's chapters because I think they give a great insight into Robb and the conflict he faces between being a boy and Robb the Lord. The scene where they held hands in the dark and cried was really touching and one of my favourites. With Arya, I forgot her fierce as a wolverine et al mantras and I kind of liked them, they were cute. I also like how vulnerable she is and worried for her father, and it was touching how she made up with both Sansa and Septa Mordane, people she doesn't like, out of her love for her father. I like the Jon and Daenerys chapters and think there's some mirroring going on with how they adapt to their really difficult new lives. Ned and Tyrion are my favourites too though for sure, although I also like Catelyn and how she sees through Lysa's trout.
I have a view on Aegon but I want to re-read ADWD first!
Oh man, I'd actually kind of love that. Book Tyrion and Book Daenerys are such vastly different and more interesting characters, and I'd love to see them actually revel in smurfing trout up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
And in the show at least (probably in the book too, haven't gotten there yet) Catelyn sees through it immediately, and it's a big part of why Robb chooses to call the banners. She was being held captive. They never believe for a second Sansa is actually trying to betray them. Even if she chose to write the letter sincerely (and in the scene between her and Cersei, she's hesitant), it doesn't mean she was being treacherous. It's just a little girl misplacing her trust, trying to fix a situation.Quote:
As for writing the infamous letters that offended Arya in the show, again, of course she wrote them. Ooh, little Lyanna Mormont would say no to the Lannisters, would she? Would she bollocks. Sansa was locked in a tower for several days an has been told she has traitor's blood and can't marry Joffrey. She trusts, loves, worships Cersei. Because she's the Queen. That's it. That's all there is to it. Why wouldn't she write letters as the Queen asks?
I actually nearly brought up this scene in my last post, just because I loved it so much. You make a good point; also Catelyn's chapters do a good job of showing Robb the boy (mentions of his crown sitting on his head awkwardly, etc) and not Robb the King. I understand why the show chose to portray Robb as it did--especially since they considerably aged him up. Sadly, I think that it pared down Catelyn's story a bit, which is a shame, but doesn't matter as much without Lady Stoneheart being in the show. (There are theories that Lady Stoneheart will take over Beric's role in the show, and I think Beric's sacrifice would have been much more interesting to see from LSH's perspective...especially now that she's basically a purely evil entity. Being able to find that sliver of love and humanity that has fueled her entire adult life.)Quote:
I don't mind Bran's chapters because I think they give a great insight into Robb and the conflict he faces between being a boy and Robb the Lord. The scene where they held hands in the dark and cried was really touching and one of my favourites.
I don't know why, but Ned telling Arya that Septa Mordane is a good woman is important to me. I think it's because it's instilling a lesson in Arya that just because we don't like someone doesn't mean they are bad, and doesn't mean they aren't on our side. Sansa is of course mentioned in the same conversation, but I think it's going to be important for the "pack". Also, Septa Mordane IS a good woman, and I'm glad she got some appreciation for everything she did for the Starks.Quote:
Septa Mordane
Well, what is it? I'd like to know to see how your view changes when you reread. I've also only read ADwD once, and that was 4 years ago, so my head's basically filled with a lot of fluff in regards to that book.Quote:
I have a view on Aegon but I want to re-read ADWD first!
Yeah, one of the major themes of Catelyn's story is family (them Tully words) and it doesn't quite come across in the show that Robb is in slightly over his head and barely holding it together. He's second guessing and uncertain about his plan with the two Lannister hosts until she coaches him to it, and she sorts the Frey crossing out with aplomb. Again, I dislike how the character is called dumb. Taking Tyrion hostage was a little impulsive, but she outsmarts him twice to pull it off. He would've made a fine hostage for the war (both Tywin's sons in their custody - whatever Tywin originally thought of Tyrion, his attitude immediately changes when he gives Jaime up for dead) but unfortunately the attack of the mountain clansmen left her reliant on both Bronn and Lysa. I'm looking forward to seeing more of her insight in Clash.
With Aegon, people read too much into the "Mummer's dragon" line. He's Varys' dragon, that doesn't mean he's necessarily a false dragon. What I do know is that his story is intrinsically linked to that of Dorne and I expect House Martell to back him. I think a major theme of his story is rushing into things. His rise and return to Westeros has been planned for years, as has Doran Martell's revenge on the Lannisters. But they all have itchy trigger fingers, combined with the greyscale death sentence on Jon Connington and I think they're going to serve their revenge pie before it's cold. Aegon will take over much of the Stormlands and follows that up by pushing Mace Tyrell's trout in. It genuinely wouldn't surprise me if Randyll Tarly follows his show arc and betrays the Tyrells too and Mace dies. I hope we get a viewpoint (Jon Connington?) of that battle because it's going to be brutal for the Knights of Summer.
I also think the Sparrows will ally with him (given how religious his upbringing has been) and welcome him into King's Landing. And then? Daenerys shows up. Fire and Blood. Dance of the Dragons... but not at KL. Dorne is going to be utterly ruined by Daenerys. I think maybe there will be some sort of machinations between Varys and Tyrion, and I think Aegon's hastiness will see him be the one to ruin the peace and and that's when she goes wild on King's Landing.
I don't know where Cersei and the Lannister regime fits into this but presumably Tommen has to die at some point, followed by (Queen?) Myrcella in the burning of the Water Gardens.
I definitely think people read too much into him being the mummer's dragon. I believe he's the real deal. But like I said, his claim is going to be void when people find out about the annulment of Elia's marriage.
I think the Sparrows backing Aegon is a possibility, which would further lead Cersei to blow up the Sept (I do think we're going to get this in the book, by the way, and I think it's going to lead Jaime to kill her). But I think Aegon is going to win the Iron Throne, at least for a time, until Daenerys shows up.
I dunno, wouldn't the vision Daenerys saw in the House of the Undying of Rhaegar with Elia and Aegon imply they were still married at the time of birth? He wasn't baseborn at the very least.
They were definitely married when he was born, but an annulment would legally mean the marriage never happened, meaning they wouldn't be considered trueborn. Retroactively, he'd lose claim.
I don't know, I think it's going to be very interesting to see how that comes up in the books, especially if the annulment of their marriage and the discovery of Jon's existence becomes common knowledge. If GRRM chooses to go that route. I guess he could say that because they were married at the time, he won't be disinherited. But he takes a lot of his ASoIaF from The War of the Roses/Tudor history, and Henry VIII disinherited Mary and Elizabeth both for a time, and they were considered bastards. Nowadays we'd never consider a child illegitimate if their parents divorced (and really, who really even thinks about this sort of thing anyways, besides the super-ultra-religious?).
Dorne will definitely back him, but if they find out that Rhaegar and Elia annulled their marriage (especially if Rhaegar did it without Elia's consent), I think it will lead to them backing him in open rebellion. Which might lead to your Daenerys theory.
I keep toying with the idea of reading the books, but I hate the idea of never knowing how long the wait will be for the end. I did read the first book in college and really enjoyed it. I’m not sure why I stopped reading the second. I think I will try to read the series after I’m finished with the book I’m currently reading.
Has anyone read the other stories in the ASoIaF universe, and are they worth picking up?
I'll read those books when he finishes it, so maybe never. I hope some day though as I liked the first couple I read. The story is definitely too grand for TV after the first couple books. The show should have cut out several major plot items just to keep the pacing consistent through the 8 seasons. Like bring Dany over the sea quicker so that she can integrate with the characters more fluidly or cut out the Dorne plot altogether.
I started reading the first book at one point but decided to hold off until they were done. So maybe ill never read them but if George rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Martin gives us an ending ill go through and marathon them.
This is mostly because I'm apprehensive about reading a story that might not get finished.
Who knows maybe ill change my mind. I do have The World of Ice and Fire so I've been okay with reading lore and side stories.
If you enjoy the world and setting, and you thought the first few seasons were excellent, I cannot recommend the books enough. I know there is the risk of no ending but at least there's the show - disappointingly threadbare though it was - to fall back on. I also think The Winds of Winter is sooner than we think. From what people have gleamed, GRRM had nearly finished it before, decided it didn't fit well enough together and has re-written large swathes. Make of that what you will!
Also from reading AGoT, I've been thinking about Viserys. He's written off as an example of Targaryen madness but I don't think a character from any other house who had acted like that would be labelled mad. He's an entitled insecure bully, sure, but actual insanity? Not really. Everything he did had a purpose, either to exert control over Daenerys or to get his army to reclaim the Iron Throne. His sneering I'm-so-superior attitude to the Dothraki is no different from, say, how the nobles in the Vale viewed Bronn vs Ser Vardis Egen and elitism is nothing unusual in that setting. His downfall is in failing to adapt (as Dany did) to Dothraki culture and as a result being convinced that he'd been stiffed in a business deal. It's not madness to get pissed off if you think someone has swindled you. (still a colossally unlikeable twat all in all though obviously)
I also recommend the books. I think something is lost if you try and get through them as quickly as possible on your first read through. There's so much to pick up on that you'll miss if you're just trucking through. With most series, that stuff comes out better in rereads. But I think something is even lost reading the series now, knowing more or less how it ends, and which of the secrets were answered. But there's a LOT the show didn't even start to touch on. Like, smurfing Dorne? The entire main character from that plot isn't even IN the show! Euron Greyjoy is actually interesting and a threat! People consider Theon and Bran secondary characters...that's a big smurfing problem! Neither of them are secondary characters!
You're right about Viserys. He was cruel, but no crueler than, say? The Hound? A very beloved character. I think it's telling that Dany still chose to name a dragon after him. And he kept her alive for all of those years. We know his paranoia about the usurper's assassins was legitimate, and he was quite a little boy himself when his life got upended. But he protected Dany, made sure she didn't starve, sold everything they ever had. If he was truly, completely evil, he would've just left her for dead and taken care of himself.
Little tidbit I just noticed: Ned tells Arya that a lie for the right reasons is not without honor. Robert tells him later that he "never could lie for love or honor". Sean Bean was an extraordinary Ned, but I still think the show as missing something on just how solemn of a person he is. He doesn't sugar coat his words like other people do, he rarely laughs. I guess what I'm saying is that he's an extremely bald-faced person. I wish we could know more about how carrying the secret of Jon's parentage for so many years ate at him. Although there are theories that he told Benjen, and that's part of why Benjen joined the Night's Watch.
Oh man don't get me started on book Euron compared to show Euron. Book Euron is a terrifying and pure evil - as in even worse than Ramsay and Joffrey imho - sorcerer who is going to bring an actual sea of blood and Lovecraftian horror to Westeros. Show Euron is wacky Captain Jack Sparrow finger in the bum. Also the show needed Victarion who I am very fond of, the big dumb badass.Spot on. I think his is a very sad story and incredibly tragic. But I think because we see the abusive bully he was rather than the little boy who lost everything or the teenager on the run with his kid sister in tow we lose sight of his downfall and transformation into a prick.Quote:
You're right about Viserys. He was cruel, but no crueler than, say? The Hound? A very beloved character. I think it's telling that Dany still chose to name a dragon after him. And he kept her alive for all of those years. We know his paranoia about the usurper's assassins was legitimate, and he was quite a little boy himself when his life got upended. But he protected Dany, made sure she didn't starve, sold everything they ever had. If he was truly, completely evil, he would've just left her for dead and taken care of himself.
Without a doubt. Ned's thoughts and feelings are so interesting and I appreciate why Martin had to censor his thoughts on Jon's parentage to preserve the narrative integrity, I would really enjoy seeing how he feels about it. I think there's a little flash of worry about Jon when Ned is in the Black Cells, I just wish we could've seen more. Ned is haunted.Quote:
Little tidbit I just noticed: Ned tells Arya that a lie for the right reasons is not without honor. Robert tells him later that he "never could lie for love or honor". Sean Bean was an extraordinary Ned, but I still think the show as missing something on just how solemn of a person he is. He doesn't sugar coat his words like other people do, he rarely laughs. I guess what I'm saying is that he's an extremely bald-faced person. I wish we could know more about how carrying the secret of Jon's parentage for so many years ate at him. Although there are theories that he told Benjen, and that's part of why Benjen joined the Night's Watch.
I remember almost nothing from Euron's chapters (does he even actually have chapters?), and all I really remember from Victarion's chapters is that he's a complete smurfing oaf.
Nah, we see Euron through Asha, Victarion and now Aeron. Aeron's sample Winds chapter is horrible. And yes, that's exactly what Victarion is and I love him for it.
Oh. Hey. Brother raped my wife. Let's kill her, the dumb bitch!
I know the fact that it's heavily implied that Euron repeatedly raped Aeron as a kid makes him scary to me. But like I said--I remember little else about him.
Psy, why have we never discussed Tyrion, the time-traveling fetus? (I am reminded of this because I just got to the chapter where Daenerys tries to give Viserys clothes and [at least to the reader] feels the baby move for the first time.)
Also, I'm reminded of how much I actually really like book Daenerys a lot. I'd say based on the POV from the first book, she's the most miscast. I understand why they aged up all of the characters, but I think her innocence and sweetness was lost in translation when they (rightfully, by the way) chose to go with a young woman instead of a girl barely in her teens. I'm interested to see how she and Sansa interract in the books, since they're only a couple of years apart in age, instead of several. I still hold Clare Bowen would have been the best Daenerys, disregarding age. There's a real vulnerability in here that Emilia Clarke lacked, even in season 1, which is hands down her best season. Only s7 EC/Dany is comparably as good.
I hate to say it, but Peter Dinklage was the second worst miscast. I understand that there aren't many working actors with dwarfism, and he's AMAZING. Not hating him at all. Obviously book Tyrion is far uglier and much more monstrous looking (let's be real--even in the show Tyrion is called handsome on at least one occasion by Margaery, and I think again later too). And it's my understand GRRM is really unhappy now with how he portrayed Tyrion's appearance. But it's really not that. Peter Dinklage is just too smurfing sympathetic. You're supposed to like book!Tyrion, but also understand that, even early on, there's a hint of something not very nice in him (see: him getting extremely angry that Catelyn outsmarted him, simply because it hurt his pride, not because it put him in danger).
Sean Bean was the perfect Ned.
Michelle Fairley is not my favorite casting choice, but I think she did a really good job. I just think there were probably better choices for Catelyn.
Sophie Turner was a solid choice for early season Sansa.
Maisie Turner was a solid choice for Arya.
Isaac Hempstead-Wright was the perfect choice for early season Bran.
Kit Harrington was chosen for looks, but is an acceptable choice.
Anyways, this whole post is basically getting to the point that the actors who I see while reading are Robert, Viserys, Varys, Drogo, Hodor, Lewin. Most of the main characters actors I don't really see. So rereading the books feels completely different (not just because of story differences) and it's actually very enjoyable because of that. Especially in cases where I didn't care for the actors (see: Emilia Clarke, sort of Kit Harrington).
tl;dr book!Dany is such a great smurfing character
the what now? is rhaego tyrion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx
You're right, there's definitely an innocent dreamer of a little girl at the start. It's almost a coming-of-age story as she learns about and adapts to the Dothraki culture, the caged bird (sorry Sansa) finally able to spread its wings for the first time. And then she's confronted with the brutal reality of what the Dothraki actually are and what the relative luxury she is continuing to live in actually means for people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx
I agree that I don't really get that from Emilia Clarke's Daenerys but then I'm being unfair because I'd need to rewatch season 1. In my head I just hear her stern angry voice whenever I picture her.
My only real issue with Dinklage was the awful accent he attempted! The softer, more sympathetic Tyrion was the work of the writers, presumably because he was a fan favourite and the writers love to pander to the fans. That and you can't really cut his nose off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx
I don't quite agree with your assessment of early Tyrion. He comes across as being a kind and carefree fellow who just wants to be loved and empathises with cripples, bastards and broken things. His support (through truth as much as anything) to Jon, going out of his way to help Bran when he knew he'd receive less than a warm welcome at Winterfell and when he saved Catelyn from the clansmen all show a real kindness and empathy. His one flaw is his desire for retribution and vengeance on anyone who slights him.
It's easy to overlook that - for the time being - which is kind of the point. Don't we all support his desire to turn the Vale of Arryn into a smoking ruin after his false imprisonment and horrible treatment, both in the terrifying mindsmurf that is the Sky Cells - side note, I had forgotten how horrible they sound! ugh - and being brutally beaten by a man three times the size of him? The one little dark touch is when he sees the fate of Masha Heddle and clearly feels she deserves it when she actually had nothing whatsoever to do with Catelyn capturing him.
From memory, though, he is a vile and hateful person in ADWD and that vengeful streak is dialed up to 11. I guess it's like the Viserys journey that we never got to go on and again it's another tragedy.
Was really hoping to get the 'All Lucky Sevens!' post in this thread but Jinx beat me to it... :(
Oh, boy. Do I have a theory for you. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comm...reseen_theory/Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
I said a hint of something not as nice, but I still stand by saying that book!Tyrion isn't nearly as warm and kind as Peter Dinklage's portrayal (which is interesting, because everything I've read about him from everyone is that he's a total smurfing asshole irl). The book paints more of a portrait of him as something closer to Littlefinger. He's cunning, not just clever, and his triumphs don't feel like "Aha!" of a hero with his hands on his hips and his chest out, and more like a smirk and rubbing his hands together.Quote:
tyrion
But, again, I'd say he's one of my favorite book characters (or is at least right now in early days). I'd say first book chapters Tyrion > Dany > Catelyn = Arya > Sansa > Jon.
Majestic.Quote:
Originally Posted by JinxOh, boy. Do I have a theory for you. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comm...reseen_theory/Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
Maybe her HotU vision of Rhaego being a silver haired lord in front of a burning city was meant to be Tyrion at the Blackwater.
Could be! Also, ties into your theory that Tyrion and Dany go Fire and Blood all over everyone's asses. Eh, eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoticMajestic.Quote:
Originally Posted by JinxOh, boy. Do I have a theory for you. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comm...reseen_theory/Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
Maybe her HotU vision of Rhaego being a silver haired lord in front of a burning city was meant to be Tyrion at the Blackwater.
I don't know if you read fan-fiction, but apparently this one writes a definitive ending for the series, and is said to be super good. I'm planning on giving it a try once I finish the published series again.
https://archiveofourown.org/works/33...hapters/543997
I read about a quarter of it once and it didn't really do it for me, sorry. :shobon: Adding a dozen more POVs to an already POV heavy story wasn't great (though I like Jeyne and Edmure having them) and the author had too much of a weird Mary Sue fixation with Val.
How so?
And oof, yeah, adding more POVs is unnecessary. That said, if they had fun doing it, I'm glad. smurf, they actually wrote a story, which is more than what our favorite fat boat captain is doing.
Val becomes Ygritte 2.0: Electric Boogaloo basically. And yeah smurfing respect to the author for making it. Boat captain is hard at work, I just think he was nearly done but the trout hit the fan in 2015, he lost his mind and he's had to rewrite the whole thing.
I think he's getting closer to done, what with the "if I don't have it done by June 2020, lock me in a volcano". Or at least, it sounds like he's got some hitch in his giddyup. The running theory is that he's probably unhappy with the show and doesn't want his opus to only have that ending.
https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire....nter-resource/ this is a pretty good indicator of how the writing has been going.