Prove it!!!

Well, it seems that SE changed its mind since they released the game.

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Originally Posted by Odd Eye

Sigh... Jenova was the main villain. Sephiroth, however, is the antagonist. :rolleyes2
As far as the poll goes, they are all correct.

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No, Jenova was a tool. While she was responsible for the destruction of the Cetra, she was technically killed by the remaining ones and her body used as a tool by Shinra and specifically Hojo when they found it. While Sephiroth claims what he's doing is his "mother's" will, it's really more like he came to his own conclusions after reading everything he could find in the underground library in Nibelheim and decided that the desires and goals he felt to complete were the same as what Jenova wanted, not that he himself honestly knew or was being told what they were. On top of that, Jenova was already brain dead by this point as Ryushikazu has already pointed out; she had absolutely no control over what was going on, and was merely a tool. A tool, therefore, cannot be described as the villain of the game.

That being said, I agree that Sephiroth is the antagonist in the game, but not the main villain. I personally found Hojo to be, both directly and indirectly. Much of what occurs happens because of Hojo (the use of Jenova cells, the creation of Sephiroth, the acknowledgment of Aeris by the Shinra corporation, ect.), though it could be debated whether or not all of this was purposely planned by Hojo or merely a lucky result due to his own ineptitude and desire for power. So while Sephiroth is the major threat, we could consider Hojo to be the actual villain in this story do to the fact that so many of the problems stem from his involvment.

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Jenova was actually only part... heck I bet Sephiroth would still be born... as Malcom from Jurrasic Park said, "Life will find a way." And Sephiroth would probably still go insane...he was still an experiment from Hojo and would probably go insane just the same..but not a powerful.

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It was Jenova that wiped out the Ancients. Jenova that Shira thought was and ancient and tried to make a 'clone', got psycho instead, that went on a rampage to destroy the earth. Jenova was the one that weakened the planet. Jenova is the one who started all this CRAP and it's being 'finished' 2000 years after it got to the planet. Can you not see? Don't force me to make an epic post describing Jenova and Sephiroth and what the hell's up with them. Don't. Your eyes will bleed.

Well, the whole story, things revolve around CLOUD, you control CLOUD throughout most of the game. Cloud is the protagonist. Sephiroth is the antagonist because he's a poop face. Simple really.

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Originally Posted by Kefka_Almighty

No, Jenova was a tool. While she was responsible for the destruction of the Cetra, she was technically killed by the remaining ones and her body used as a tool by Shinra and specifically Hojo when they found it. While Sephiroth claims what he's doing is his "mother's" will, it's really more like he came to his own conclusions after reading everything he could find in the underground library in Nibelheim and decided that the desires and goals he felt to complete were the same as what Jenova wanted, not that he himself honestly knew or was being told what they were. On top of that, Jenova was already brain dead by this point as Ryushikazu has already pointed out; she had absolutely no control over what was going on, and was merely a tool. A tool, therefore, cannot be described as the villain of the game.

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finally a valid arguement. I might just shut up now. Oh wait:

uh...Jenova never died. She was sealed. Then she was found by Shinra. Her head was taken by Sephiroth. Her body escaped from shinra. Jenova had the ability to live in separate pieces, but these pieces would eventually return to the head. These pieces include the body and the cells injected into humans.(Which explains why Sephiroth, who had jenova cells in him, went crazy took the head in the first place)

It is clear that Jenova has the power to manipulate those with its cells inside them. Whenever Cloud became close to Jenova (usually disguised as Sephiroth), he did some terrible things, like hand over the Black Materia, beat up Aeris, allow Aeris to be killed, you get the picture. What I don't understand about the "Sephiroth is the true villain" idea is what gave Sephiroth the ability to use this manipulation power rather than become subject to it like Cloud.

It just doesn't hold up as well.

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Originally Posted by silentenigma

What I don't understand about the "Sephiroth is the true villain" idea is what gave Sephiroth the ability to use this manipulation power rather than become subject to it like Cloud.

It just doesn't hold up as well.

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The same thing that make his consciousnes exist in the Lifestream, without becoming part of it. The same thing that hold Holly. His powerful will.

The same thing that allowed him to control Cloudduring those times you mentioned.

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finally a valid arguement. I might just shut up now. Oh wait:

uh...Jenova never died. She was sealed. Then she was found by Shinra. Her head was taken by Sephiroth. Her body escaped from shinra. Jenova had the ability to live in separate pieces, but these pieces would eventually return to the head. These pieces include the body and the cells injected into humans.(Which explains why Sephiroth, who had jenova cells in him, went crazy took the head in the first place)

It is clear that Jenova has the power to manipulate those with its cells inside them. Whenever Cloud became close to Jenova (usually disguised as Sephiroth), he did some terrible things, like hand over the Black Materia, beat up Aeris, allow Aeris to be killed, you get the picture. What I don't understand about the "Sephiroth is the true villain" idea is what gave Sephiroth the ability to use this manipulation power rather than become subject to it like Cloud.

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You've got the idea, just backwards. It was Sephiroth using Jenova's cells injected into the 'clones' to control them. This includes controlling Cloud to make him give Sephiroth the B.M. And Jenova was killed, the remaing Cetra killed it and threw the body in a chasm. Sephiroth can also control the cells of Jenova, (keep in mind that he is part of it, so to speak). So, yes Jenova looked like Sephiroth, but only because Sephiroth, who's controlling the body of Jenova, is making take that shape. Yes, Jenova did break out of the Shinra building, but it was Sephiroth making it do so. Jenova is throughly dead, but Sephiroth is controlling it.

I've practically written an essay on it, which explains more.

can you put a link to this essay.

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Originally Posted by [img

http://img46.exs.cx/img46/9754/lolz6om.jpg[/img]]-The Roles of JENOVA and Sephiroth: The Puppet Master Theorem-

The long debated matter of Final Fantasy VII: The Puppet Master Theorem; was
JENOVA or Sephiroth in control? Who was the grand manipulator, the mastermind
behind it all? I will here present the truth of the matter.

Before examining this matter, it may be best to first explain what JENOVA is
and functions as: A virus. Whatever its origins, JENOVA's behaviour 2,000
years before the main events of the game was indicative of that of a virus,
the goals of a virus being to spread and to replicate. This is exactly what
JENOVA does upon its arrival on the world of Gaia. It approaches the Cetra,
tricking them with its appearance by appearing as their dead relatives, and
then it released upon them what Ifalna referred to as "the virus." She said
that this virus drove the Cetra insane and turned them into monsters.

At face value, this may sound like an attack. But think a bit further: Ifalna
is not saying that these Cetra were being killed; rather, she is saying that
they were being TRANSFORMED. JENOVA's Cells are known to cause mutations. As
Sephiroth says at the Northern Crater, "The power to change one's looks,
voice, and words is the power of Jenova." What, then, was JENOVA releasing
upon the Cetra? Its very own Cells. It was transforming them into more of
itself. JENOVA was seeking to replicate.

We find further suggestion of this concept in the official Final Fantasy VII
novel, "On the Way to a Smile," written by Kazushige Nojima, which serves to
bridge the two-year gap between the events of Final Fantasy VII and those of
Advent Children. In this story, Denzel tells Reeve that those people INFECTED
(note the terminology) with JENOVA's Cells that were spread by the Lifestream
flowing across Midgar were discharging a black pus through the pores of their
bodies. With this in mind, recall that the malady known as "Geostigma" is
revealed in the film to be the result of the body overworking itself in an
effort to rid itself of JENOVA's Cells. When JENOVA's Cells entered people, at
first they would discharge this black pus, as this is the body's natural
reaction to an intrusion by viruses: One's natural immune system involuntarily
rushes white blood cells to the location of an infectious substance within
one's body in an attempt to contain it and then discharge it from the body.
That's exactly what was happening with those infected by JENOVA's Cells.
However, the virus was too strong to be removed as simply as random bacteria
would be.

With that touched upon, I will now move on to the events of the game itself.
I would argue that the acts of murdering President Shinra, much of the Shin-Ra
personnel in the Shin-Ra headquarters, and Aerith were Sephiroth's, being
committed while he carried out the new JENOVA's will: His own will. Sephiroth
was essentially the ebmodiment of JENOVA in a native of the Planet of Gaia,
while still retaining his own individuality. JENOVA's will was never so much
that of consciously perceiving thought processes, but, rather, that of an
instinctual beast, a virus seeking to perform one function: To make more of
itself.

What became Sephiroth's intent was JENOVA's will all along, though in a
completely different context. JENOVA Cells had been injected into the womb of
Lucrecia, Sephiroth's mother, when Sephiroth was still a developing fetus, and
there the Cells melded with his body as it developed, becoming one with every
aspect of his body as it developed into its normal infant form. In some
respects, one could argue that Sephiroth was essentially an extension of
JENOVA, or, perhaps, an evolved form of the creature, existing as a hyrbid of
it and Gaia's Homo Sapiens.

It has been argued by many that Sephiroth was controlling JENOVA, and it has
also been argued that JENOVA was outright controlling Sephiroth, yet I have
come to conclude that what we witness throughout the game was simply
Sephiroth's natural growth into that which he always was: The new JENOVA. One
might even say he was a mutation of the virus that JENOVA was.

Once Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream with JENOVA's head, his life changed.
The knowledge of the Lifestream would have become privy to him. Sephiroth
would have come to learn just what JENOVA was, and just who he was. Sephiroth
then simply desired to assume the role of that which he now was: A virus. He
wanted to become everything. He wanted the world to be his. He wanted
everything to be part of himself, just as he and JENOVA were part of one
another. He wanted to shape the future in his own image, living now as the
JENOVA virus with the mind and emotions he had as a consciously perceiving
human being:

(Inside the Temple of the Ancients, and Out)
Sephiroth
"I am becoming one with the Planet."

Tseng
"One with the Planet?"

Sephiroth
"You stupid fools. You have never even thought about it."
"All the spirit energy of this Planet. All its wisdom...
knowledge..."
"I will meld with it all. I will become one with it... It will
become one with me."

...

Aerith
"How do you intend to become one with the Planet?"

Sephiroth
"It's simple."
"Once the Planet is hurt, it gathers Spirit Energy to heal the
injury."

Sephiroth
"The amount of energy gathered depends on the size of the injury."

Sephiroth
"...What would happen if there was an injury that threatened the
very life of the Planet?"
"Think how much energy would be gathered!"

Sephiroth
"Ha ha ha. And at the center of that injury, will be me."
"All that boundless energy will be mine."

Sephiroth
"By merging with all the energy of the Planet, I will become a
new life forn, a new existence."
"Melding with the Planet... I will cease to exist as I am now."
"Only to be reborn as a 'God' to rule over every soul."

...

Sephiroth
"I'm far superior to the Ancients."
"I became a traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and
wisdom of the Ancients."
"I also gained the knowledge and wisdom of those after the extinction
of the Ancients."
"And soon, I will create the future."


As can be seen here, Sephiroth desired to become one with everything else. He
desired to make everything be a part of him. He desired to replicate.
Sephiroth's growth was essentially that of introducing conscious perception to
a viral entity that "thought" based on instinct.

Sephiroth's goal is further supported by the game's CGI film sequel, Final
Fantasy VII: Advent Children. During the film, after Sephiroth has been reborn
due to JENOVA's Cells that were in Rufus Shinra's possession merging with
Kadaj, he tells Cloud that his goal is to use Gaia itself as a vessel to sail
the cosmos until he can find another Planet, one which has not yet been
"corrupted" by the presence of Homo Sapiens. He then intends to make this
world be his new "paradise."

In summary, I would describe the matter of JENOVA and Sephiroth as an
evolution in which JENOVA's instincts became part of the will within a
human being that could be regarded as JENOVA's evolved offspring: Sephiroth.
On the whole, the plot that unveiled was formed of a symbiotic existance,
perhaps even a fusion, between JENOVA and its Gaian
embodiment/mutation/evolution, Sephiroth.

Does this mean that Sephiroth really is the Puppet Master of Final Fantasy
VII? Yes. JENOVA's instincts play out through Sephiroth, however, it was not
consciously manipulating or controlling him into doing anything, nor was he
technically controlling it. He WAS JENOVA, or, rather, it's evolved form.
There was not any puppeteering going on except that which was exerted over
Cloud and the black-cloaked Clones from Nibelheim. There was just growth.
Sephiroth could control all of JENOVA's Cells that were disembodied and could
manipulate those in whom they were injected, but he was not controlling JENOVA
because the JENOVA that the Cetra had known no longer existed and all that
remained was him. He simply grew as a mutation of JENOVA.

An argument that JENOVA controlled Sephiroth rather simply falls apart, as
it's made obvious in both Final Fantasy VII (the original game) and Advent
Children that Sephiroth's own will was being exerted. In Final Fantasy VII,
Sephiroth's utmost enmity toward Cloud and consistent mental torture of the
protagonist displays that Sephiroth himself was certainly very much aware and
active, as JENOVA would have no cause to render such agony unto Cloud, whereas
Sephiroth, one who was filled with pride -- pride that had been hurt when
Cloud overpowered him five years earlier -- would. Further still, he speaks of
JENOVA in the third-person. This continues into Advent Children, when he
speaks of sailing the cosmos "As Mother did before me."

...

In conclusion, my determination is that there was no issue of control in the
first place, as Sephiroth WAS JENOVA, but an evolved -- or, rather, mutated --
form of an instinctual, viral creature that didn't operate on the higher level
of consciousness that Homo Sapiens -- consciously perceiving beings -- do. In
fact, Square-Enix's Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega Guide, published in
September of 2005, confirms this, stating that Sephiroth, with his higher
level of consciousness, assumed rulership over JENOVA's Cells.

---

So I guess we're all wrong. Heh. Squall of SeeD, ladies and gentlemen.

JENOVA. Just because she' badass.

Yep, he is rather good in his theories. of course, because this is the vii board, that won't get deleted, unlike on the ix board.

What, do they not like him up there?

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can you put a link to this essay.

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I can do better.

Jenova is an alien, a viral life-form, that can take any shape it wants. Jenova is no specific 'he' or 'she' but rather Jenova is most firmly an 'it'. The alien being, never before encountered, has powers that aren't human, of which I'll come back to later. A notable aspect of Jenova is that if any cells are separated from the main mass will eventually come back to the body. Whereas humans freely shed millions of skin cells by rubbing an eyelid, Jenova does no such thing. Quite a curiosity. It also has complete control over every individula cell, thus why all the cells eventually come back together when seperated-Jenova is actually pulling itself back together again. Jenova is also a very resilient creature, one that, for some reason, can survive the absolute zero temperature of outer space, possibly by using the aformentioned powers.

Next, Jenova came here via space travel. However it skipped the expected space-ship arrival and came to the planet without anything else than itself. Interesting in the least. The northern crater in the game is actually the landing site of Jenova's arrival. Any references to this reasoning is quite vague. It's unsure as to exactly why Jenova came here, but the intention was not peaceful in the least. When it came here, it took the shape of the the indeginous species and played the part of a benevolent being for a time. Eventually it started to act, and showed the people specters of lost loved ones, displaying it's supposed power over the dead. In reality, it was manipulating the knowledge of previous lives memories immersed within the lifestream. Using the knowledge, it created illusions, weaking the moral and confusing the populace. Then it began to spread a virus amongst the humans, who at that time were called the Cetra. It could have done this easily by spreading it's own cells throughout the lifestream and then making it's own cells attack the host. If you've seen FF7:AC, then this would be known as Geostigma. This virus killed nearly all the Cetra, the guardians and people of the planet, in the most literal sense. With the planet defenseless, and weakend by the crater, Jenova could now take over the planet for whatever purposes it had in mind. However, the remaining Cetra managed to kill Jenova. However, the Cetra race was all but extinct, and it never grew back to it's former numbers. At the same time the planet was creating a defense for itself, the Weapons, but the Cetra managed to kill Jenova before the Weapons were ever released.

Jenova was dumped back in the crater, or possibly some chasm, where it lay, dormant, for 2,000 years. Then, some archeologists found it in a dig. Mistaken to be one of the members of the lost Cetra race, the powerful company, Shin Ra, sought to use it's DNA to fashion a living Cetra, to an extent, with the Cetra's powers of finding the Promised Land. The Promised Land was of great interest for it was thought that Mako would be abundant there. To do this, they first injected members of SOLDIER with Jenova cells, not only to see what effect it would have, but to get the Promised Land sensing ability. It didn't work, so an unborn infant was directly injected with Jenova cells, to work in the alien cells with human DNA--truly fusing the two speices together. This is the creation of Sephiroth.

The rest you undoubtedly know, yet I'll do a quick run-through for topics' sake. Sephiroth did not turn out as they expected, still ignorant of the fact that Jenova was not an Ancient/Cetra. When Sephiroth found out that Shin Ra was creating monsters using humans, he snapped, finding out that he was created in a similar way, by the fact that his mother's name and the monsters name in the room of the reactor were the same. The documents in the Shin Ra basement confirmed this. Then Sephiroth went truly mad, horrified and angered that he was the 'rightful heir' to the planet and that these 'weaklings' had done so much harm to his mother and himself.

Now, since Jenova was dead, it had no way of ever controlling it's body, obviously. But Sephiroth, who was half-Jenova, if you will, could manipulate the cells of Jenova's body, a trademark of the spieces it seems. So in all the times you see Jenova it is not really Jenova--it's Sephiroth controlling Jenova's cells. A madman fighting with the puppet of his 'mother's' dead body--which brings up the puppet question, but that's another story for another time.

As Sephiroth has control over all Jenova cells, that also means that he has control of the cells that have been injected into countless, SOLDIER's, clones, and human experiments. Now this is where Cloud comes in. As he was also experimented on, Jenova cells were also injected into him as well. Sephiroth was able to manipulate the cells to his advantage, mainly in the memory part of the brain. Now, I'll get back to the power of Jenova. These cells have an adverse affect on human cells, changing normal human cells into something more like Jenova cells. This grants humans some limited powers of Jenova, thus the reason for flying, walking on ceilings, and being unnaturally strong. However, the Mako-immersion process that accompanies the injection of Jenova cells on the experiments has a dramatic effect. The Mako--lifestream--is filled with the memories of the lives of people long dead, as it is the very spirit energy of hundreds of former lives, and is being recycled over and over. When immersed in Mako that spells bad news--for thousands of memories of unknown lives is forced into a person's mind, and if that person, like Cloud, wasn't particularly fond of their life, it would be easy to get lost in the flood of memories and literally lose ones own identity. This is what happend to all the previous Sephiroth clones. However, Cloud, in some fashion, it is never really explained, manages to get hold of the identity of his deceased friend Zack, and thus thinks he is Zack but with his own past. The two do not mix together very well, and I often refer to this confused Cloud as Zoud (it was better than 'Clack') to keep them straight. I could go on but that's going far off topic and I belive I'll leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by Dragon Mage

Jenova is an alien, a viral life-form, that can take any shape it wants. Jenova is no specific 'he' or 'she' but rather Jenova is most firmly an 'it'. The alien being, never before encountered, has powers that aren't human, of which I'll come back to later. A notable aspect of Jenova is that if any cells are separated from the main mass will eventually come back to the body. Whereas humans freely shed millions of skin cells by rubbing an eyelid, Jenova does no such thing. Quite a curiosity. It also has complete control over every individula cell, thus why all the cells eventually come back together when seperated-Jenova is actually pulling itself back together again. Jenova is also a very resilient creature, one that, for some reason, can survive the absolute zero temperature of outer space, possibly by using the aformentioned powers.

Next, Jenova came here via space travel. However it skipped the expected space-ship arrival and came to the planet without anything else than itself. Interesting in the least. The northern crater in the game is actually the landing site of Jenova's arrival. Any references to this reasoning is quite vague. It's unsure as to exactly why Jenova came here, but the intention was not peaceful in the least. When it came here, it took the shape of the the indeginous species and played the part of a benevolent being for a time. Eventually it started to act, and showed the people specters of lost loved ones, displaying it's supposed power over the dead. In reality, it was manipulating the knowledge of previous lives memories immersed within the lifestream. Using the knowledge, it created illusions, weaking the moral and confusing the populace. Then it began to spread a virus amongst the humans, who at that time were called the Cetra. It could have done this easily by spreading it's own cells throughout the lifestream and then making it's own cells attack the host. If you've seen FF7:AC, then this would be known as Geostigma. This virus killed nearly all the Cetra, the guardians and people of the planet, in the most literal sense. With the planet defenseless, and weakend by the crater, Jenova could now take over the planet for whatever purposes it had in mind. However, the remaining Cetra managed to kill Jenova. However, the Cetra race was all but extinct, and it never grew back to it's former numbers. At the same time the planet was creating a defense for itself, the Weapons, but the Cetra managed to kill Jenova before the Weapons were ever released.

Jenova was dumped back in the crater, or possibly some chasm, where it lay, dormant, for 2,000 years. Then, some archeologists found it in a dig. Mistaken to be one of the members of the lost Cetra race, the powerful company, Shin Ra, sought to use it's DNA to fashion a living Cetra, to an extent, with the Cetra's powers of finding the Promised Land. The Promised Land was of great interest for it was thought that Mako would be abundant there. To do this, they first injected members of SOLDIER with Jenova cells, not only to see what effect it would have, but to get the Promised Land sensing ability. It didn't work, so an unborn infant was directly injected with Jenova cells, to work in the alien cells with human DNA--truly fusing the two speices together. This is the creation of Sephiroth.

The rest you undoubtedly know, yet I'll do a quick run-through for topics' sake. Sephiroth did not turn out as they expected, still ignorant of the fact that Jenova was not an Ancient/Cetra. When Sephiroth found out that Shin Ra was creating monsters using humans, he snapped, finding out that he was created in a similar way, by the fact that his mother's name and the monsters name in the room of the reactor were the same. The documents in the Shin Ra basement confirmed this. Then Sephiroth went truly mad, horrified and angered that he was the 'rightful heir' to the planet and that these 'weaklings' had done so much harm to his mother and himself.

Now, since Jenova was dead, it had no way of ever controlling it's body, obviously. But Sephiroth, who was half-Jenova, if you will, could manipulate the cells of Jenova's body, a trademark of the spieces it seems. So in all the times you see Jenova it is not really Jenova--it's Sephiroth controlling Jenova's cells. A madman fighting with the puppet of his 'mother's' dead body--which brings up the puppet question, but that's another story for another time.

As Sephiroth has control over all Jenova cells, that also means that he has control of the cells that have been injected into countless, SOLDIER's, clones, and human experiments. Now this is where Cloud comes in. As he was also experimented on, Jenova cells were also injected into him as well. Sephiroth was able to manipulate the cells to his advantage, mainly in the memory part of the brain. Now, I'll get back to the power of Jenova. These cells have an adverse affect on human cells, changing normal human cells into something more like Jenova cells. This grants humans some limited powers of Jenova, thus the reason for flying, walking on ceilings, and being unnaturally strong. However, the Mako-immersion process that accompanies the injection of Jenova cells on the experiments has a dramatic effect. The Mako--lifestream--is filled with the memories of the lives of people long dead, as it is the very spirit energy of hundreds of former lives, and is being recycled over and over. When immersed in Mako that spells bad news--for thousands of memories of unknown lives is forced into a person's mind, and if that person, like Cloud, wasn't particularly fond of their life, it would be easy to get lost in the flood of memories and literally lose ones own identity. This is what happend to all the previous Sephiroth clones. However, Cloud, in some fashion, it is never really explained, manages to get hold of the identity of his deceased friend Zack, and thus thinks he is Zack but with his own past. The two do not mix together very well, and I often refer to this confused Cloud as Zoud (it was better than 'Clack') to keep them straight. I could go on but that's going far off topic and I belive I'll leave it at that.

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false. To say that Sephiroth turned out the way he did because of the Jenova in him but he, the human part of him, was in total control of his own thoughts and actions, is insane. SOS=Truth.