Rinoa is Ultemicia

On the keeping Adel alive business: can they actually kill her without releasing her from that seal? I mean, that seal managed to prevent the vacuum of space, along with the lack of oxygen, from killing her. If this is true, then he didn't kill her because, in removing the seal, there was the probability that she could free herself and return.

Also, the lack of a suitable successor to her power is perfectly plausible bet. I am almost 100% sure that a sorceress' power is transferred whether the sorceress wants it or not, based on how Rinoa received Edea's power. And, considering the consequences if they got it wrong, then perhaps it would be best to leave her in space indefinitely. One less sorceress to worry about.

R=U is a bit far fetched for me. If you put two pictures of them next to each other, there is some resemblance. But, for them to be the same person, they have to look nearly identical. You cannot find such a photo. You may be able to find a transition of the two faces on Youtube, but that is an optical trick. Find me two photos next to each other, and we'll talk.

Squall being Laguna's son is heavily implied throughout the game via Ward and Kiros' NPC dialogue, Raine's backstory, the Moombas mistaking you for him and so on.

Rinoa being Ultimecia is not implied at all. Ultimecia's hatred and evil is mentioned, and obviously she must have inherited Rinoa's powers (via someone else!) in her own timeline, but if Ultimecia is Rinoa because of that, then Rinoa is also Adel and Edea, because she inherited their powers. What this theory then says is that Ultimecia is Rinoa, Adel and Edea, as well as the other eleven Sorceresses you pwn on the way through time compression, plus plen-tee of offscreen characters.

Basically, the fact that one gets heavily implied whereas the other is only generated by vague allusion is all the evidence I need to say no, I don't think Ultimecia is Rinoa. If they intended us to work that out, they would've filled the game with obvious clues like they did with Squall and Laguna.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Remember that this game is not meant to be simple and straight, the designers want the audience to create interpretations. This game is more like art.
In other words, the game is not very clear, so it becomes open interpretation for everybody.

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The thing is, for an interpretation to be valid in any meaningful sense, it needs to be sufficiently backed up by the game itself. Multiple interpretations are fine as long as sound evidence is given in each case. R=U doesn't given sound evidence.

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... hic! The problem is that the story didn't state much about what exact physical laws did the game use, what would happen if (name effects here) happen, for example (assuming R=U is true): would Ultimecia automatically disappear if she successfully killed Rinoa without TC? ... hic! Who knows? Would Ulti disappear if she killed Rinoa during Time Compression? Probably not because everything was present at the same time (humans/witches life spans won't matter). Did this game show you that it has a time loop? Maybe Ultimecia won't disappear WHEN she killed Rinoa, BUT in the next time loop, would Ultimecia inevitably disappear? Probably. In the game, the party killed Ulti and she then disappeared. What does that mean? Will that affect Rinoa at some point in the next time loop? Maybe? ... hic!

... hic! The problem with time compression is that it can mess things up, which is why it's very dangerous.

There are things to prove that R=U is not true, but you can't ignore that there are things that vailds R=U, whether they sound make sense or not.

If the game was more accurate, things like this would have never happened in the first place. Explain why Enix didn't add better information to the game ... hic!?

Each FF8 version ... hic! (various languages) don't exactly state same dialogues, does that mean that they are not sufficient enough prove something?

Here are my reasons why Rinoa is not Ultimecia:

1) There is resemblance, but they are clearly not the same person (find two photos next to each other that disproves this, not anything with transition effects).

2) Their personalities are completely different. Rinoa is bubbly & warm, happy to live in the moment. Ultimecia is dark & broody & depressed & so scared of losing something she'd rather be alone (sounds more like Squall than anybody else). From a literary perspective, there is no way such a change would occur. Why would they (being Square) build up a character in such a way, when we are supposed to infer that she completely changes?

3) Many people who propose they are the same person suggest that the reason Rinoa became evil was because she lost Squall. So: why does she constantly try to kill him? Both as Edea and herself. Why does she want to be completely alone? Surely she'd want to be with Squall.

4) This is tied into 3. Proponents of this theory also say that Rinoa's line in the Ragnarok, which she says this moment stayed still forever, is linked to Ultimecia saying time doesn't stay still. Same argument as 3. Why choose to compress time so only she could exist if she could rather be with Squall? Surely, if she was so depressed over Squall, she'd rather die than be alone for all eternity.

5) Ultimecia can go back into time and possess different sorceresses. Again, if Rinoa is Ultimecia, why didn't she possess herself to protect Squall.

6) Odine says that Ultimecia lives many generations in the future. Seeing that this would be substantially longer than one's average lifespan, it would be unusual if Rinoa was a) alive & b) very young. And looking different at the same time.

Do I need to continue? You can argue that this theory is possible. & yes, it is possible. It is also possible that every event in the game is a dream that Squall/Quistis/Matron/the sick nurse was having, just as it is possible that we're all actually living in the Matrix. Is it probable/plausible. I don't think so.

It is possible that Rinoa is Ultimecia but not propable. If Rinoa was Ultimecia and Squall died (Somehow...) and she went crazy and got Ultimecia's powers, her personality could have changed to match Squall's from thinking about him so much.
Against that, if she was thinking about him so much, why would she try to kill him in the future of TC? He looked just like she would have remembered him, fur lined short jacket and all. Wouldn't seeing him again give her some semblance of sanity back?

Another thing, Ultimecia summoned Griever in the final battle and he turned into some ugly purple and red lion, Rinoa, evil or not, would not want to desecrate Squall's memory by turning his favorite piece of jewelry into a weapon, especially considering that Squall gave her a ring with Griever's likeness on it.

Ultimecia looks like Rinoa, but since they never do a CG movie with her, she also looks like every other pale skinned, long haired, busty brunette in the game, given the PS1's unfortunate lack of picture quality.

Adel could have been killed without giving up her powers. Think The Covenant. It's the body that breaks down, not the powers. If they would have shot the seal into the sun, the seal would have held on long enough to get very close and by the time it gives way, it's too late for Adel. Shell, Protect, Reflect. None of them would have mattered.

And Cid is not Squall. Cid was a grown man and married to Edea by the time Ultimecia gave her powers to Matron. Squall was like 7 when that happened and still running around in his Charlie Brown T-Shirt.

Some people put forward the idea that Rinoa forgot about the people she loved, by using a GF. Perhaps even by using Squall's soul as a GF, namely Griever. They maintain that her whole motivation for turning evil and greedy and time-compressey could be due to missing him, wanting to be with him, but no longer remembering why she wants all these things.

As a theory it's interesting, though not backed up by anything more than the most tangentially circumstantial evidence in the game.

We actually do see Ultimecia in FMV once in the game - during the ending, when Squall's reality is crumbling and he's hallucinating. There's a sequence where Seifer, Rinoa and Ultimecia's faces all get superimposed, one flashing past the other. For a moment, it seems to show Rinoa morphing into Ultimecia. However, that (to me) just symbolises Squall's fears of Rinoa "becoming" Ultimecia by becoming an enemy to the world, or by passing her powers onto future generations who'd eventually give them to Ultimecia.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Here are my reasons why Rinoa is not Ultimecia:

1) There is resemblance, but they are clearly not the same person (find two photos next to each other that disproves this, not anything with transition effects).

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One of the Final Fantasy 8 graphic designers have created one blank character model, he duplicated it into so many models for the FF8 characters, meaning that each duplicated model is exact the same. Other FF8 designers then finish modelling and rendering each blank model for each character. In the end, this is how each character's face size is the same, the eyes size look the same, etc, go figures. So concluding that looking for a photo to match Ulitimecia's face is not sufficient enough to prove something.

However, there's something you have to consider:

Why does Zell have tattoos on his face, smiliar to Ultimecia and Adel? While all the other characters don't have tattoos. The game didn't explain much about this question, but lets move on to the next question:

Why does Rinoa have white wings and Ultimecia have black wings? Why do it have to be Rinoa, not someone else? Rinoa having White Wing, things from white wing and black wing are similar to each other. E.g. Squall wanting to be Rinoa's knight.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

2) Their personalities are completely different. Rinoa is bubbly & warm, happy to live in the moment. Ultimecia is dark & broody & depressed & so scared of losing something she'd rather be alone (sounds more like Squall than anybody else). From a literary perspective, there is no way such a change would occur. Why would they (being Square) build up a character in such a way, when we are supposed to infer that she completely changes?

3) Many people who propose they are the same person suggest that the reason Rinoa became evil was because she lost Squall. So: why does she constantly try to kill him? Both as Edea and herself. Why does she want to be completely alone? Surely she'd want to be with Squall.

4) This is tied into 3. Proponents of this theory also say that Rinoa's line in the Ragnarok, which she says this moment stayed still forever, is linked to Ultimecia saying time doesn't stay still. Same argument as 3. Why choose to compress time so only she could exist if she could rather be with Squall? Surely, if she was so depressed over Squall, she'd rather die than be alone for all eternity.

5) Ultimecia can go back into time and possess different sorceresses. Again, if Rinoa is Ultimecia, why didn't she possess herself to protect Squall.

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White wing represents good.
Black wing represents evil.

If Rinoa had white wing, which explains why Rinoa was always lovable towards Squall, even Squall's acts were appalling (not necessary) towards Rinoa, Rinoa always have loved him no matter what happen. Rinoa has done "good" things, she NEVER has done any bad thing, it's almost as if she's a perfect person.

If Rinoa had black wing, she will be ALWAYS evil (not lovable) towards Squall and other people. She has done "bad" things to people, even Rinoa herself. Suicide is evil (just in case if Ultimecia killed Rinoa). The goals of black wing are always evil.

Have you seen the Time Compression tunnel? It was filled with "black" wings. It's like black wing is having a war with white wing. White wing revived Squall at the end, and so on.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

6) Odine says that Ultimecia lives many generations in the future. Seeing that this would be substantially longer than one's average lifespan, it would be unusual if Rinoa was a) alive & b) very young. And looking different at the same time.

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It's either:

1) Rinoa is actually a descendant of Ultimecia. Leading her to have the same powers as Ultimecia.

2) Time Compression. It causes timelines to compress, multiplying the past timeline (the past) between another timeline (the future), making the timespan of Rinoa longer.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Do I need to continue? You can argue that this theory is possible. & yes, it is possible. It is also possible that every event in the game is a dream that Squall/Quistis/Matron/the sick nurse was having, just as it is possible that we're all actually living in the Matrix. Is it probable/plausible. I don't think so.

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Disproving R=U is basically the same thing as proving R is not U, because both have flaws.

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Originally Posted by XCGriever

It is possible that Rinoa is Ultimecia but not propable. If Rinoa was Ultimecia and Squall died (Somehow...) and she went crazy and got Ultimecia's powers, her personality could have changed to match Squall's from thinking about him so much.

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It's possible from reality, but I was talking about it in terms of story-telling. Why would the storywriters make Rinoa an almost polar opposite of Ultimecia if we are supposed to infer that Rinoa is in fact Ultimecia.

Yes, one cannot disprove R=U 100%, but one can also not disprove that we're all living in the Matrix 100%. The fact remains that Ultimecia has some resemblance to Rinoa; she doesn't look like Rinoa. The time gap between the events is problematic, seeing that sorceresses do not have eternal life (this is stated in Ultimania I think. But in-game, Adel is looking for a successor - this suggests that she is going to die). Personality is polar opposite. Development of accent? Name change (why bother changing your name)?

I suppose GF could answer some of those questions. But, at the end of the day, the visual appearance of the two is not the same. & GF doesn't change appearances. The characters resemble polar opposites in the game, and I think it's a huge leap of faith to declare that the game-makers believed that Rinoa is Ultimecia, because if they had, they would have made it clearer to us.

If you personally believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia, that's fantastic for you. But, it is similar to someone believing that Squall leaves Rinoa for Ellone/Edea/Laguna/anyone after the game ends. It is possible, there is no clear way to disprove it, but it is not backed up by anything in the game.

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I suppose GF could answer some of those questions. But, at the end of the day, the visual appearance of the two is not the same. & GF doesn't change appearances.

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For example,

Eden looks like a garden, definitely. How did it happen? Where did it come from ? Why has it to be based on garden? Who possessed who out of his/her mind to create Eden? I think White Wing was involved because Squall and his party used Eden to hurt Ultimecia (Black Wing).

Let's compare that to what Ultimecia has done; she possessed Rinoa's mind and created Griever GF.

Ultimecia hating SeeDs and gardens, and then there's a White Wing Eden GF thing. Coincidence?

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The characters resemble polar opposites in the game, and I think it's a huge leap of faith to declare that the game-makers believed that Rinoa is Ultimecia, because if they had, they would have made it clearer to us.

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Yes, what's your point? It's not like I'm expecting you to believe R=U. Futher Esthar doesn't even believe in R=U.

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If you personally believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia, that's fantastic for you. But, it is similar to someone believing that Squall leaves Rinoa for Ellone/Edea/Laguna/anyone after the game ends. It is possible, there is no clear way to disprove it, but it is not backed up by anything in the game.

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I'm guessing you haven't read the R=U theory? Because there are things in the theory that are backed up by the game. Some of them may sound nonsense but they are really there, which means that we can't just ignore them, they exist for a reason.

and by the way, it's not just the dialogues that prove something, but there are also other things like images, animations and music for more hints.

EDIT--

It's possible that Ultimecia was reincarnated by Rinoa.

The game doesn't tell us when Ultimecia's time is, so...

There's also a lot of things about the theory that aren't backed up by the game or is based on fairly flimsy 'facts.' And it's quite possible to ignore it if you selectively pick bits and pieces to prove a certain theory by picking only bits of evidence that supports a theory and not the whole game itself. They sound like nonsense because they are.

Also, the game clearly states that Ultimecia lives 'many generations' in the future as well as the fact that sorceresses only have normal human lifespans, which is pretty damning as far as the theory goes.

When I say R=U in my own case, it doesn't mean that they are exactly the same person, but more like powers.

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Originally Posted by Heath

... They sound like nonsense because they are.

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Then why did Square add them into the game, even if they are nonsense?

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Originally Posted by Serapy

However, there's something you have to consider:

Why does Zell have tattoos on his face, smiliar to Ultimecia and Adel? While all the other characters don't have tattoos. The game didn't explain much about this question

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I personally think the tattoo thing is a coincidence. They probably gave Ultimecia tattoos to make her look evil, and they probably gave Zell tattoos to a) make him look cool and b) because they thought getting tattoos was a very Zell thing to do.

R=U proves why people shouldn't dig to deep into things.

Square has announced several things because its clear THEY DIDN'T WANT ANYONE believing R=U.

These facts alone demolish R=U
1. Sorcesses have average lifespan
2. Time was never compressed fully, if it had been it would've been game over.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

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I suppose GF could answer some of those questions. But, at the end of the day, the visual appearance of the two is not the same. & GF doesn't change appearances.

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For example,

Eden looks like a garden, definitely. How did it happen? Where did it come from ? Why has it to be based on garden? Who possessed who out of his/her mind to create Eden? I think White Wing was involved because Squall and his party used Eden to hurt Ultimecia (Black Wing).

Let's compare that to what Ultimecia has done; she possessed Rinoa's mind and created Griever GF.

Ultimecia hating SeeDs and gardens, and then there's a White Wing Eden GF thing. Coincidence?

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Here is a picture of Ultimecia from the ending FMV.

http://www.ffshrine.org/ff8/fmvshots...time/00136.jpg\

And here is a photo of Rinoa from the ending FMV.

http://www.ffshrine.org/ff8/fmvshots...last/00016.jpg

Already, I can tell you that Rinoa's face is rounder and less angular than Ultimecia's face. Her nose is also softer and has a gentler curve than Ultimecia's sharp nose. The lips are similar, but again, Rinoa's are softer. Now, here are two more photos.

Ultimecia.
http://www.ffshrine.org/ff8/fmvshots...time/00137.jpg

Rinoa (I'm sorry about the size, but it needs to be large):

http://www.freewebs.com/nasajlassera...%20Rinoa03.jpg

Look at the eyes. Rinoa's eye shape is different to Ultimecia's. And of the utmost importance, Rinoa has dark BROWN eyes. Ultimecia has bright YELLOW eyes.

So, judging from these in-game FMV shots, Rinoa does not look like Ultimecia. Therefore, they cannot be the same person.

On a sidenote, I'd like to thank Final Fantasy Shrine - The Ultimate Final Fantasy Fansite for providing these photos (except for the ballroom dance one, I got that from somewhere else), and for asking me so politely to add this footnote.

Your joking right? Eye shape? Your judging them on EYE SHAPE? In that case does Ultimecia also equal Edea? Compare their character sets.