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You have no right to speak for 24,524 people (total members of the site), and that's all there is about that. Going to a forum doesn't dictate whether or not you have a life. You're categorizing people, its the same thing as if I said all Southerners are bigots or all Asian people are smart.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanedude34
Apparently you haven't noticed PaladinCecil's posts are almost exactly the same as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elpizo
I've know PalCec for a while and found he actually makes some valid points about Rosa and her underratedness most of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdm42393Apparently you haven't noticed PaladinCecil's posts are almost exactly the same as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elpizo
And Arcane, dream on. Whatever it takes to make you happy.
I do feel that Rosa gets the shaft a lot but she is quite important cause she (and most of IV's cast) are used as templates or archetypes by later games in the series. Most of the female leads in FF fall into her template and the only difference that separates her from them is that whereas it can be claimed she's the original and has her faults, the others are terrible in that they don't develop farther than the original.
I consider Rosa to actually have more going for her personality wise than Yuna or Aerith and even the few who do have a few unique niches they fall into ( Lenna, Rinoa, Garnet, and possibly Penelo) it doesn't change that they are still very close to the original. I guess what I'm saying is that its hard to slam Rosa for being a cliche when she technically started it for this particular genre.
Personally, I find Yuna to be more two dimensional than Rosa if only cause Rosa can fall back on two things: She started the cliche and technology limitations. Yuna has neither to fall back on. Even then I felt Rosa did more to show her strength and the fact that she wasn't smurfing retarded than other female leads. She follows Cecil even after he's exiled from his homeland, she forgives Kain despite his treachery, she guides Rydia despite only barely knowing her, and she follows Cecil to the bitter end of their journey despite it being a loss cause to begin with. She has devotion, compassion, and resilience. I can't see these qualities and still think of her as a mere two dimensional cliche. She may have never had much dialogue but her actions speak much louder than words ever could.
I thought they both made pretty good points. Some better than others, but still...Quote:
Originally Posted by ElpizoI've know PalCec for a while and found he actually makes some valid points about Rosa and her underratedness most of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdm42393Apparently you haven't noticed PaladinCecil's posts are almost exactly the same as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elpizo
And Arcane, dream on. Whatever it takes to make you happy.
I don't know. As touching as it is, going out into the desert blindly to find your presumably dead lover alone seems a bit retarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
She probably had to go alone, and besides, love can make you do odd things.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdm42393[
I don't know. As touching as it is, going out into the desert blindly to find your presumably dead lover alone seems a bit retarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
[quote=Sir Lancealot;2566045]That doesn't make her choice any less retarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdm42393
[quote=sdm42393;2566152]No less retarded than going to an abandoned city alone to summon Holy and only telling the unconscious person, despite the fact its proven this will thwart the villain and he has this uncanny ability to go whereever he pleases, tagging along with a military group as a civilian and constantly needing to be rescued whenQuote:
Originally Posted by Sir LancealotThat doesn't make her choice any less retarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdm42393
hits the fan, going alone to face your mother who has obviously made it clear she is both insane and wants your powers for her own, misleading your friends and outright lying to them so you can place yourself in mortal danger by facing a known murder alone so you can punish him for his crimes despite the plot making it clear that she can't fight her way out of a paper bag without her guardians...
Somehow forsaking your country and following your love through a desert; to see if he is alive doesn't seem as stupid. :p
But the thing is, she didn't start the cliche.. Sure she may be the first FINAL FANTASY heroine to have these traits, but she is DEFINATELY not the first ever character to have these traits, so I don't see how she can fall back on that. I do agree with the argument about technical limitations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
How is that ANY different than what Rosa did with the desert anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I understand she didn't start the cliche in literature but she did for gaming. The difference is that most games fall back upon previous characters within the gaming genre. Most gaming characters fall into categories from older games rather than older pieces of literature. Course I always feel they say this cause "intellectuals" will be damned if they compare a video game character to literary or historical figures. :rolleyes2Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanedude34But the thing is, she didn't start the cliche.. Sure she may be the first FINAL FANTASY heroine to have these traits, but she is DEFINATELY not the first ever character to have these traits, so I don't see how she can fall back on that. I do agree with the argument about technical limitations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Rosa's actions were not certain death. She followed Cecil, made it to a town (before him) and caught ill. The other characters walked straight into certain death situations without the aid of others cause they felt it was the right thing to do and had some misguided mothering instinct try to protect everyone. Which resulted in all the characters placing their lives in jeopardy to save them while the situation snowballed cause of the female leads actions. The other female leads had options and they chose the most foolish ones. I don't see Rosa's actions being stupid or misguided, she just caught a bit of misfortune. She also only did this once, while the others continue to make stupid decisions.Quote:
How is that ANY different than what Rosa did with the desert anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
That raises a good (non-related) question: How did Rosa somehow manage to get to Kaipo (I think, I haven't played IV in a while) before Cecil? That would require crossing through a monster-infested dungeon, traversing several mountains (made by Titan) and somehow knowing that Cecil would indeed head to Kaipo instead of going to Baron, and then somehow make it there with enough time left over to contract a local disease and be taken in by a random couple. That's pretty funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I am not sure. I think that I would have liked to see that addressed in the game because it appears that there is only one way to Kaipo from Baron and the only way that Rosa could have arrived in Kaipo as soon as she did was if she was found the night that Cecil and Rydia arrived in Kaipo and went immediately to the Inn.
Actually, I just thought of something. Maybe she wandered into Mist at the exact instant Rydia summoned Titan. Maybe Rosa was then ejected high into the air, landed in the desert by Kaipo (falling unconscious of course) and was left in the desert long enough to contract desert fever. Then, just before Cecil showed up, the couple found Rosa and brought her in.
I'm responding without real reference to who suggested who, because I'm scanning the thread and writing as I do it.
A quote from Rosa that guarantees she did not trail them and get caught up in Titan.
Rosa: They told me you'd died in the earthquake at Mist. But...I knew it couldn't be true.
The quote was taken from here: GameFAQs: Final Fantasy IV (DS) Game Script by RevenantThings
I used to think that Rosa arrived in Kaipo before Cecil, but I don't know where the impression came from. You don't get to talk to anyone in Kaipo until you wake up the next morning. I found no dialogue from NPCs saying she was already there before you, which leaves it open that she arrived anywhere between what happened at Mist and shortly before Cecil and Rydia woke up in the Inn.
We've been discussing Rosa's possible paths over at GameFAQs for a bit now. The discussion makes me happy, because it acknowledges that Rosa getting there is an important element of the story too that you don't see straight out. Currently, it's at either Rosa took a small boat/raft along the eastern shore (this is going under the idea that the airships were naval ships until recently) and walked once getting to shore, or she took a mountain pass not shown (of course, utilizing a chocobo until she got to the pass). It's also been thrown around a bit that she maybe stowed away on an airship, but other surrounding information seems to me like that's entirely unlikely.
Wolf_Kanno makes a good point about Rosa compared to other leads. The first time you need to help her, it happens unexpectedly, and it's something completely unavoidable; looking down on Rosa for getting Desert Fever is like looking down on someone for getting pneumonia. And in Fabul, it's not like Rosa had any options. Her abduction is as much the fault of Kain (Golbez can see she has some power over him because Kain hesitates to kill Cecil) and Cecil (he calls her name, showing that he cares about her) as it is her own. Actually, I'm trying to think of how any of that scene is Rosa's "fault" but I can't... and I'm dead serious, please illustrate how it is if you can. She DID need to be there, otherwise Cecil would be a carcass on the end of Kain's spear.
Rosa didn't start the general cliche in literature. She started it in the Final Fantasy series. She was the first character to break ground on that now all too common "white mage stereotype," something many people who started later in the series do not grasp for a mix of reasons. The most obvious is that it's so common they assume it's always been there. The second, perhaps less obvious one is that most people started with Aeris, and therefore consciously or subconsciously see her as the person who started it all, and from there it's really a matter of awareness. If they don't realize it, they're just trying to hold EVERY character to Aeris standards; if they DO realize it, and they're a hardcore Aeris fan, it could be a little less benign than that (meaning they could be against her because her being there before Aeris makes Aeris a little less special than they thought).
I don't use this as a serious argument, but one amusing tidbit of note: when you're at the Golden Saucer and Cloud and Aeris (I forget if it can be any girl, I always remember it with Aeris) have to perform as the leads in the play, the girl is named Rosa. This certainly raises a lot of questions, doesn't it?
GameFAQs: Final Fantasy VII (PS) Game Script by Asch The Hated
Narration: Long, long ago... An evil shadow appeared over the peaceful kingdom of Galdia... Princess Rosa was just kidnapped by the Evil Dragon King, Valvados. What will become of her? Just then, the legendary hero, Alfred appears!!
As far as Rosa taking off on her own, Cid was busy. The King sent troops out with explicit orders to off Rydia and kill Cecil if he raises resistance. We have no clue what happened with Kain, though we can be pretty sure that he wasn't really one of the people who either would or could go look for him. The Red Wings... I have no clue what the heck they were up to, I guess just sitting around? By all appearances, Rosa's the only one who cared enough to look for Cecil not to kill him.
Rosa getting sick does put a damper on the progress to Fabul, and her being a bargaining chip for Golbez is a negative event for her. And maybe there would've been a better way for her to reach Cecil, maybe she could've found a way to get Kain to come with her if she were in Baron for a little longer.
I think I'm getting too tired, but what I'm trying to say is that there are negatives to the events surrounding Rosa, but that's not ALL there is to Rosa and they're DEFINITELY not as bad as people always make them sound. If she's the worst example of a female lead, then let's look at Cecil.
He steals from the Mysidians and torches a village (under the king's orders, which excuses his actions, but still). He fails to reach Damcyan before an attack and fails to defend the crystal, Rosa and even himself in Fabul. Several people "die" in the course of the game so he can continue the journey (the twins, Cid, Yang, Tellah...). When he tries to keep the crystals in the Dwarven Castle and the Sealed Cave safe, he just lets them fall into enemy clutches. He also fails to steal them back. Finally, he and the rest of the party would have died trying to fight Zeromus if not for the prayers of everyone from the Blue Planet. There are enough failures for him to fill a paragraph.
In case it's not obvious, I don't think that Cecil sucks as a character, and this isn't REALLY an ultimatum, an "if Rosa sucks then Cecil sucks too." The point I'm trying to get across here is that perspective is important. If you're only looking for the bad, all you're going to see is the bad. If you look only at the above, Cecil's a complete failure without help, and even then he usually doesn't accomplish his goals. If you look at the good too, how he redeemed Baron from the clutches of a fake king or how he fought the darkness inside him and became a better person for it, you can see he's NOT a failure. The same can be said of Rosa.