Which game best personified the definition of "Fantasy"?

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09-01-2008, 03:27 AM
Bolivar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolivar

For all of you that keep insisting "SCI-FI!!!":

go to a group that plays the pencil-and-paper version of Shadow Run, and try to convince them that they are playing a sci-fi game.

Give me one moment *calls his rpg club* Yes, we do actually consider Shadow Run sci-fi though to be technical its "cyber punk with a decent dose of fantasy". Yet most of us agree its cyber punk background negates it from being a true fantasy. :p

You know Shadow Run players who consider it sci-fi?

You're either a bad liar or a poor comedian.

I think the reason why we're now caught up in the definition of fantasy, rather than giving our opinions on the original question, is because of this truth:

Some of the people who don't like FFVII/VIII (at least relative to other entries) try to devalue it by saying "it isn't fantasy" - primarily because they do not understand what fantasy is in the first place.

Not to mention that we're using popular Western misconceptions of fantasy to judge Japanese interpretations of the genre.

Case closed.
09-01-2008, 05:36 AM
Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolivar

You know Shadow Run players who consider it sci-fi?

You're either a bad liar or a poor comedian.

Yes we do, what kind of people do you hang out with. Hell, most sources have Shadow Run listed as cyber punk. What? Does your definition of cyber punk mean magic and trolls are not allowed? ;)

Quote:

I think the reason why we're now caught up in the definition of fantasy, rather than giving our opinions on the original question, is because of this truth:

Some of the people who don't like FFVII/VIII (at least relative to other entries) try to devalue it by saying "it isn't fantasy" - primarily because they do not understand what fantasy is in the first place.

I'm going to ignore the possibility of you clumping me in with these kind of people. Personally I don't mind VI, VII, and VIII not being traditional fantasy. I like steam punk, cyber punk, and sci-fi and I don't feel these games are any less for being that way. I just like to call them like I see them. I don't care for some people's definition of fantasy cause I feel its way too general to be honest and most of the times its a gross generalization of something that fits specific genres. Had these games not fit the criteria for sub-genres I would have no issue calling them fantasy but alas they do.

Quote:

Not to mention that we're using popular Western misconceptions of fantasy to judge Japanese interpretations of the genre.

Case closed.

Alright people, Bolivar has placed his foot down and we know he's always right so we can all go off to more interesting threads now! Sorry had to jab at you a bit. :p

Do you know how the Japanese actually perceive the fantasy and sci-fi genre? From my understanding, they perceive the genre's closer to these "Western" misconceptions than we do. They don't even consider FF to be true fantasy. Its why DQ has always been a more popular fantasy series in Japan. Its my understanding that IX was made the way it was partly cause the Japanese fans thought VI, VII, and VIII were too sci-fi.

If you look through any Japanese film catalog you will find that generally what falls under fantasy is mostly sword and sorcery while sci-fi is predominately space ships and giant robots. Is there blending? Yes, but rarely do you see a 50/50 blend and generally a show will always fit enough of a genre criteria to be labeled so. Fantasy can have a bit of super science and science fiction has a bit of the old school fantasy (they do have that elf fetish :shifty:).

The only show I can think of off the top of my head that is classified unusually is the crappy Scrapped Princess. 90% High fantasy D&D with a matrix style sci-fi plot twist that makes up the other crappy 20% of this show. Its generally labeled as a Fantasy Sci-Fi...

In the gaming world Star Ocean is classified as a Sci-Fi RPG yet it features the same amount of science fiction to fantasy ratio as many of the FFs. Why is it then considered a Science Fiction game instead of a fantasy game? Cause it fits the criteria of Science Fiction that's generally lacking in the FFs (mostly a heavy emphasis on scientific explanations for fantastical concepts). I personally feel VIII fits the criteria for being a sci-fi piece as well, I do feel their is a fantasy element as well but the ratio is more 70:30 so I feel it should be defined more as Sci-Fi than fantasy.

I feel VI and VII fit all the criteria to be considered Steam Punk (VI) and Cyber Punk (VII) respectively. I don't see how defining them so and not considering them pure fantasy is somehow a mortal sin that requires people to force their own damn perception onto me. Call me and ignorant smurf and let me be. ;)
09-01-2008, 08:58 AM
Karellen

Do we actually care what the Japanese think these games should be categorized as anyway? Just because they thought they were making "X" but actually made "Y" doesn't mean we have to listen to them when they try to pass it off as "X" anyway. Case and point: most JRPGs are not actually "role playing games", despite what Japanese developers think.
09-01-2008, 09:19 AM
Rostum

I would like to see some authorative sources on exactly what the Japanese community and developers think before I believe a word of Wolf Kanno's post, tbh.
09-01-2008, 04:17 PM
Goldenboko

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolivar

I think the reason why we're now caught up in the definition of fantasy, rather than giving our opinions on the original question, is because of this truth:

Some of the people who don't like FFVII/VIII (at least relative to other entries) try to devalue it by saying "it isn't fantasy" - primarily because they do not understand what fantasy is in the first place.

Yes, that's definitely it. Definitely :rolleyes2
The topic of 'What is Fantasy' has everything to do with this topic. How can you give an opinion on what was the best fantasy of the series, without at least sharing what you think of fantasy.

Fantasy is something out of the realm of believable, once you start to lean closer to a Science Fiction setting/story it becomes much more believable, and to me FFVII and FFVIII strayed closer to that.

Just look at the first few sections of FFVII, you start in a huge city. The entire strife (lmaowaffles) is that the reactors of the city are draining the life out of the planet. That isn't fantasy at all. We move on to Kalm, and have a nice little memory. We end up going to another reactor, and the reactor is housed with scientific experiments. Even the magic of the game is 'debunked'.

Quote:

Sephiroth: You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that? …the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts between ourselves and the planet calling up magic……or so they say.

Cloud: Magic……a mysterious power…

Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha!

Cloud: Did I say something funny?

Sephiroth: A man once told me never to use an unscientific term such as mysterious power! It shouldn't even be called 'magic'! I still remember how angry he was.

Cloud: What was that?

Sephiroth: Hojo of Shinra, Inc. … An inexperienced man assigned to take over the work of a great scientist. He was a walking mass of complexes.

Even if I didn't know the definition of Fantasy, FFVII still satisfied my definition of Science Fiction.
09-01-2008, 06:04 PM
Bolivar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Yes we do, what kind of people do you hang out with.

You consider a game with trolls, elves, dwarves, and a heavy emphasis on magic to be science fiction? The reason I brought up the game is because of how outspoken Shadow Run gamers can get over this popular misunderstanding of what is fantasy and what isn't.

Quote:

Hell, most sources have Shadow Run listed as cyber punk. What? Does your definition of cyber punk mean magic and trolls are not allowed?

Actually most sources have Shadow Run listed as "RPG" - not sure what you're talking about. And "Urban Fantasy" seems to be used along with cyberpunk alot of the time for its description, if not more.

When did I say magic and trolls are not in cyber punk? One of my first points in this thread was to establish that there are sub-genres of fantasy, specifically mentioning cyberpunk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboko

Fantasy is something out of the realm of believable, once you start to lean closer to a Science Fiction setting/story it becomes much more believable, and to me FFVII and FFVIII strayed closer to that.

Just look at the first few sections of FFVII, you start in a huge city. The entire strife (lmaowaffles) is that the reactors of the city are draining the life out of the planet. That isn't fantasy at all. We move on to Kalm, and have a nice little memory. We end up going to another reactor, and the reactor is housed with scientific experiments. Even the magic of the game is 'debunked'.

"That isn't fantasy at all."

:eek::confused::greenie: - The beginning of the game has you using a sword and magic spells to destroy people with guns!!!! Accompanied by large cat-beasts! You're telling me FFVII strays closer to the believable!?

You have just successfully convinced me that you did not in fact actually play the game.

Either that or you have just demonstrated just how blatantly ignorant you can be of things so closely tied to your argument.
09-01-2008, 06:50 PM
Goldenboko

Closer to believable in terms of relativity.

Everything in FFVII has a little *b/c* in it. Cloud can beat the crap out of guys with guns, because he was exposed to Jenova Cells. They can shoot fire, because of materia which is the power of Gaia extracted from natural mako.

Also, I was talking about the plot. The plot has much less fantasy then games past (and future). How about you stop just calling people ignorant when they give an opinion and start debating :o
09-01-2008, 11:29 PM
Rostum

So wait, we're arguing FFVII is closer to reality than fantasy? What is this crazy thread up to?! Not even the plot comes under believability. Someone using magic to cast a huge meteor to crash into the planet, aided by an ancient witch, so they can become one with the life force of the planet. Not fantasy at all...

Also, just because they give an extremely shallow explination for the how of using magic, does not make this science fiction. If they elaborated more on it than just one vague scene in the game, then I could understand, but they don't.
09-02-2008, 04:59 AM
Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karellen

Do we actually care what the Japanese think these games should be categorized as anyway? Just because they thought they were making "X" but actually made "Y" doesn't mean we have to listen to them when they try to pass it off as "X" anyway. Case and point: most JRPGs are not actually "role playing games", despite what Japanese developers think.

I actually agree here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omecle

I would like to see some authorative sources on exactly what the Japanese community and developers think before I believe a word of Wolf Kanno's post, tbh.

I gained most of my sources from various written literature on the subject. As an avid anime fan (I would say otaku but I just know someone is going to get into my face about it ) I like to read up on the articles and understand more on why I love the style. I advise reading The Anime Encyclopedia by Jonathan Clements and Helen McCarthy and Anime: From Akira to Howl's Moving Castle Updated Edition, Experiencing Contemporary Japanese Animation by Susan J. Napier.

As for the IX bit, its only one of the reasons why IX was intially designed to be more classic fantasy. There were in fact many reasons. For source material, I advise finding any magazine regarding FFIX published back in 2000

Despite this, you can choose to regard my opinion or not. It really doesn't matter to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolivar

You consider a game with trolls, elves, dwarves, and a heavy emphasis on magic to be science fiction? The reason I brought up the game is because of how outspoken Shadow Run gamers can get over this popular misunderstanding of what is fantasy and what isn't.

Yes, and your point? Its more about setting and story structure than what inhabits it. Yet if I remember correctly, I clarified in saying its Cyber Punk with a dose of Fantasy involved.

I've never encountered problems defining it as I do with Shadow Runner players. Perhaps if I wandered into a forum but god knows we run into all kinds of different opinions on simple concepts. This thread being case in point.

Quote:

Actually most sources have Shadow Run listed as "RPG" - not sure what you're talking about. And "Urban Fantasy" seems to be used along with cyberpunk alot of the time for its description, if not more.

When did I say magic and trolls are not in cyber punk? One of my first points in this thread was to establish that there are sub-genres of fantasy, specifically mentioning cyberpunk

I guess my question would be this then, is Blade Runner and Akira fantasy or sci-fi and why?
09-04-2008, 11:46 PM
Bolivar

^ First of all, you're missing my overall point: To argue which FF is "most" fantasy is about as moronic as asking which of apples, pears, and oranges are "most" like a fruit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I guess my question would be this then, is Blade Runner and Akira fantasy or sci-fi and why?

This is your other major problem - you're looking at it in a black/white manner, as if you're unaware that sci fi and fantasy share many subgenres which overlap the two.

Sci Fi is a work of fiction with elements that could reasonably occur relatively within the realm of scientific possibility. I'm not going to use an English word to define a Japanese film, because Akira obviously embodies sci fi elements, but at the same time, the whole idea of Akira's powers/return borders much on the supernatural. Again, it illuminates the problem with your "fantasy or sci fi"/"one or the other" question.

The two defining aspects of fantasy are extremely imaginative qualities and using magic/the supernatural as a primary focus. The core plot factors of both VII and VIII, popularly misconstrued as "Sci Fi" (at least on this forum - i've never heard it in real life) very much "personify the definition of fantasy".
09-05-2008, 04:24 AM
Kes

I totally told myself that I was staying out of this thread, but clearly I fail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolivar

^ First of all, you're missing my overall point: To argue which FF is "most" fantasy is about as moronic as asking which of apples, pears, and oranges are "most" like a fruit.

I would actually say it's closer to asking which of the following "best lives up to the term bird": a penguin, an ostrich, a robin or an eagle?

While all of them are birds (and no one here is saying that any of the FF titles are 100% not fantasy, I think), penguins and ostriches are generally not the kind of bird people think of when the word is mentioned. For instance, neither of them can fly, and most people tend to associate birds with flying. Now, obviously which of the latter two best embodies "bird" is going to be a difference of opinion, but more people are going to choose those.

None of the choices here are flat out wrong, but some of them are going to be more typical, which is kind of what the question is asking.

And just for the record, I loved FFVII, but I still don't think it "best lives up to the term fantasy."
09-05-2008, 06:09 AM
Wolf Kanno

I actually feel that VI, VII, and VIII do have major fantasy elements but I recognize they all have major elements that slide them into other genres so I find it difficult to just say they are fantasy stories. Especially when I feel these other elements are stronger than the fantasy elements. I believe in calling a story by its "setting" rather than fulfilling a partial check list that only encompasses roughly half the game.

Overall, I feel they contain both elements, I just feel the criteria for slotting it into a sub-genre is stronger than the basic fantasy element. If you had read my original post you would know that I do feel the three games mentioned above have fantasy in it but I feel they hold stronger to sub-genres which is why I don't classify them as simple fantasy.

I feel if you stated VIII was just fantasy to a casual gamer cause they wanted to play something fantasy, they might come back and say its not true fantasy. Yes it has dragons and magic but its setting is modern day, its plot revolves around time travel, and the vast majority of the "traditional fantasy" elements are poorly explained in the world. Hell, all the monsters in the games are aliens from the moon for crying out loud. :p I just feel they might wonder what you were smoking by defining it as basic fantasy when it contains so many elements from different genres.

If you want to be fair, I don't feel you can really define the series since the whole series incorporates so many different elements and genres. I feel even calling it "fantasy" doesn't quite measure up to what the series really is. To be honest, I feel you cannot define it one way or the other but it doesn't stop people from doing it cause its our nature to define and quantify everything around us.

I find most people define a story by its setting rather than the elements that make it up. Can fantasy happen in a modern setting? Yes, but if the world and setting it designed in a way to incorporate the possibility of another explanation; in other words, the world only appears normal but it contains elements that fall into different genres. I feel it loses a bit of its clout and should stick to being defined by its setting.
09-06-2008, 09:30 PM
Bolivar

^ Stories...should be defined by their setting?

Oh, man. I'm not even sure what you're trying to say after that one. So if a story takes place in a city, which genre is that now?

Any number of them. I'm not sure whether to respond since this seems like one of your self-admitted desires to cause debate/dissension because it's "more interesting" (and less authentic).

Another problem with your message is you referring to "what most people regard as fantasy." I'm assuming what you're referring to is fairy-tale fantasy. At the end of the day, that is just another sub-genre, it in no way changes the classification of another sub-genre. It seems to me, you're trying to argue that because something isn't the popular/first thing that would pop up in somebody's head when something is mentioned, it somehow makes it less of that definition. You're confusing intrinsic with instrumental value, something along those lines.
09-07-2008, 05:16 AM
Wolf Kanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolivar

Any number of them. I'm not sure whether to respond since this seems like one of your self-admitted desires to cause debate/dissension because it's "more interesting" (and less authentic).

Maybe... :shifty:

I'll admit, I like screwing with people and I did have you going there for awhile ;)
09-07-2008, 01:25 PM
Serapy

Final Fantasy VIII. It certainly gives you something to think about. Things like Time Travel, Bloodline, Cultures, Love, theories, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WK

I feel if you stated VIII was just fantasy to a casual gamer cause they wanted to play something fantasy, they might come back and say its not true fantasy. Yes it has dragons and magic but its setting is modern day, its plot revolves around time travel, and the vast majority of the "traditional fantasy" elements are poorly explained in the world. Hell, all the monsters in the games are aliens from the moon for crying out loud. I just feel they might wonder what you were smoking by defining it as basic fantasy when it contains so many elements from different genres.

Poorly explained? Just because it was thier intention of giving people to think about the FF8's plot, doesn't mean it was poorly explained.
If that wasn't the case, they would of have made clarifications about the plot and such, which in fact, they didn't.

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