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This is like talking to a wall. Opinion isn't fact here. I like the game, I like the characters, I like the writing, & that's my opinion. In a thread where we give positive views about a game, commenting on someone's outlook saying it's right or wrong is just way off, not to mention ignorant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerokku
I don't think ignorant is the word you're searching for there.
At any rate, pay attention. I don't do this very often. "Do what, Ouch!?" you might ask. "Say positive things about FFVIII, of course!" I would respond.
Aside from the awful grinding involved, I enjoy the battle system, which is fairly rare for a game which doesn't diversify characters (I'm typically not a fan of games in which the characters are carbon copies of one another besides a few special skills and minor base stat discrepancies). Although it tended to be very, very easily broken, the Junction System was actually pretty fun.
Also, Triple Triad rocks my world. I freaking love this game.
well, Ouch! that's where most new players of the game mess up, if there's one thing you don't wanna do in FFVIII it's grinding, it's what messes most people up in this game i know it got me the first time... the way it's designed is so the enemies lvl up with Squall making grinding for EXP a bad thing especialy by the end, i think they actualy wanted the player to cruise through this titles story line, something i don't normaly do since i'm a power leveler, so i have to fight my instincts on this title... usualy the best route is to just brease through it untill you get the Garden Transport System mobile or the Ragnarok so you can get to the islands that give more AP than EXP, bofore that things like Fastlicalcon F is the best way to get AP more than EXP... this system of enemies lvling with you is what turned me off of FFTactics, except unlike FFTactics you actualy get some kind of advantage right away in the form of GFs & Junction... though grinding could efectively be a way of making this game more challenging to those that normaly breeze through an FF title's story forsaking active leveling... actualy my only complaint really would be this one does not let me power level without consequence, other than that i love just about everything else about FFVIII...
It amuses me that you assume I'm unaware of The Islands Closest to Heaven and Hell, among other things you've mentioned in your post. Drawing 100 of each magic as it becomes available was the grind I was referring to. When it comes to video games, I seem to develop some form of OCD involving items in my inventory (multiples of five or nothing) and that carries over to para-magic in FFVIII.
FFVIII is the easiest game in the series to reach level 100. The level grind in the game is obscenely easy by comparison to just about any other title I've ever played. I've yet to find that the enemies scaling up with me makes the game significantly more difficult. At any level, proper junctioning of spells absolutely breaks the game. Beyond that, abuse of the Triple Triad allows for even more stupidly powerful characters. Modded cards eventually end up in the inventories of the CC members on the Ragnarok on Disc 4, so you can mod and win the card over and over again. A limit of 10 Holy Wars? Hahaha, I think not.
nah, i didn't assume you didn't know about them but felt the need to mention them for those that don't (newbies reading this thread for the first time and such)... i get what ya mean by the grind now though, collecting 100 of every spell i come across before getting all the card skills or even cards can become a bit tedious and thus a grind, i gotcha... i don't think they really intended for us to play it that way but power levelers will do what they must to gain as much power as possible before moving on...
I'm the kind of guy who likes to teach Siren Item Refine just so I can turn tents into Curagas for junctioning purposes before I even leave Balamb.
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Originally Posted by Ouch!
I'd take you down town in a game of TT....if it were real of course.
I am so glad I'm not the only one who thought this when I saw it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiny
The two things I love the most out of FFVIII was Squall and Laguna who had really good character development and both rank as some of my top heroes in the series. I feel when you focus the plot solely on Squall and Laguna and their relation to other people (basically ignore the Time traveling BS or the idea the plot is about the "Grand Romance" between Squall and Rinoa) then you can see how very strong the story really is. Its buried in a lot of crap, but these tales are where I feel the title really shines.
My other favorite thing was just the sheer ambition of the game. Following up the smash success of VII, Square easily could have copy/pasted and released VIII as a VII clone with better graphics and a different plot but instead they went in and decided to change the way we looked at RPGs and redefine the whole genre. Granted, I don't think VIII succeeded in this goal but I have to give them props for having the guts to do this. Stealing magic, Summons that act like equipment and skills? A sci-fi story told in what feels like a world not too far from our own (minus Esthar)? I feel VIII really tried to push all RPG conventions we thought of at the time and even if non of its ideas became new RPG staples, it did change how we thought about the genre.
I'm not sure if people who started in the PS1 generation can really understand what I mean here. The game was rather mind blowing for those of us who started in the 8/16-bit era's. At the time a lot of the genre was set in stone and I feel VIII made it ok to explore a bit more on what the genre could do.
I'd argue agains the whole, a world not to far from our own' statement, but it's really hard do, I just couldn't get that feeling from the game. It's probably because the people in it felt so far devoid of what people are like, the overall world just felt out of place?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Anyway, I don't get how you can like a game for it's ambition. What one should like it for is the end result, not what the game intended to become, especially when it fails.
I disagree on the not of Squall as well. I do with Laguna, but to a lesser extent.
My beef with saying you should focus on Squalls interactions with people, his interactions are the same across the board. It's always his distancing from people, in every case. Focusing on just that aspect of the story, you only see one side of squalls personality. For that matter, even in the grander scheme of things, you always see that side of his personality. Squall, and the rest of the cast, is painted as as extremely onesided characters. No matter how good the premise of a character driven plot it won't be good if the characters driving it are no good.
Now, Laguna is probably the best developed character in the game. YOu see multiple sides of his personality through his interactions with people, something I can't say for the rest of the cast. Which is sad, cause I found Laguna himself generally unlikeable regardless of this fact. Though perhaps had they given the rest of the cast the same though in a multi-layered personality, I'd be able to agree with your assessment.
Though my main reason for responding is mention that you do not speak for me, as I started on the 16 bit era, and FF VIII was far from Mind blowing, in every respect. (Except for graphics and Rinoa's hotness.)
The GF system had some decent Ideas to it, the ability to augment your character by combining him with a GF. However, the FF VIII system took it to far, making it like FF VII in the fact it didn't matter which characters you used, the GF's were what made them exactly what they were. If the GF's were used more like Augments, as the Guardians of Wild Arms 2 were, the system would have been much better.
However, I will give this game a few deserved props.
The first thing that comes to mind is a lot of the Music of FF VIII was remarkable. Not near a big a fan as eyes on me as most, but so long as I'm not paying attention to the words, it's a decent listen, but the rest of the game had much better music.
Another thing I liked were some character designs. Irvine, while not really fitting in well with the world, had a very awesome design I'd say. You'd see him and believe he was a Sniper, yet he manages to pull off a sort of old west-like look, which one wouldn't really associate with a sniper. Rinoa's outfit was also rather stunning as well.
And finally, the card game. I hate that damned thing with a passion, though had it not been for FF VIII starting that trend, we wouldn't be blessed with the amazingly deep and awesome cardgame of Xenosaga III. :love:
I only feel this way cause many of the outfits seem placed in our own time. Zell's outfit alone be a reference to a growing fashion trend at the time. I feel most of the cast could walk down the street and not be terribly out of place. The architecture of several of the locations are also taken from many modern places. Dollet, Galbadia, Winhill, and even parts of Balamb (mostly the dock) look like real places in the world. Galbadia looks like my downtown.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
Many of these elements always gave me that "not far in the future" jive you hear to describe other semi-sci-fi (can I grammatically do that?) that you see all the time in that genre. I think it's only when you deal with Garden, Esthar, the Prison, and the abandoned structures that you see more of the otherworldly in that game. Even Garden looks somewhat normal once you get inside. Its interior is not far fetch from modern design.
Lots of things look good on paper and though I feel VIII has some broken gameplay, I never felt it detracted from the game enough to make it and non enjoyable experience (that would be FFX). The game is flawed but I never felt it was so terrible that I was miserable playing the game. Its for that reason that I can enjoy its ambition but say "its suck it didn't come together". Oddly enough its hardly its gameplay I strongly dislike as much as its plot and character development. I also only say VIII failed cause it hardly changed the genre except in terms of graphics and audio.Quote:
Anyway, I don't get how you can like a game for it's ambition. What one should like it for is the end result, not what the game intended to become, especially when it fails.
Squall himself is complex though and I feel you may be glossing over that. Squall's interactions are amusing cause he generally says one thing and does another, exploring his inner thought we see he's more than just a jerk. He's actually quite complex and incredibly smart. He does his best to push people away but in his mind you listen to him try to justify it. He meets different people with different values and tries desperately to hold onto his own. You watch him slowly grow out of his defenses and begin to open up to other people. Its well done in my book.Quote:
My beef with saying you should focus on Squalls interactions with people, his interactions are the same across the board. It's always his distancing from people, in every case. Focusing on just that aspect of the story, you only see one side of squalls personality. For that matter, even in the grander scheme of things, you always see that side of his personality. Squall, and the rest of the cast, is painted as as extremely one-sided characters. No matter how good the premise of a character driven plot it won't be good if the characters driving it are no good.
As for the other characters, yes, I do agree they are all two dimensional and it was sad to see that since many of them see interesting. I feel the story could have gotten further had they put a little more thought into the rest of the cast. Though I do love the humor caused by VIII having one of the happiest and most optimistic casts who bounce back and forth with Squall's moody, serious attitude. :D
How can you not like Laguna? He's hilarious and his hopeless romanticism make him so charming. He's not far from characters like Locke and Zidane. Yes he's a bit of an idiot but that's where his humor comes in cause his relationship with Ward and Kiros is so amusing. He literally just stumbles along through life and somehow always manages to stay on top. His pursuit of his dreams made him interesting and though he near accomplished all the things he wanted in life, one can say he did more than he himself had thought was possible. He's really one of the most interesting characters in the game and I'm always surprised how often people forget about him.Quote:
Now, Laguna is probably the best developed character in the game. YOu see multiple sides of his personality through his interactions with people, something I can't say for the rest of the cast. Which is sad, cause I found Laguna himself generally unlikeable regardless of this fact. Though perhaps had they given the rest of the cast the same though in a multi-layered personality, I'd be able to agree with your assessment.
Fair enough and I apologize. For me it was to a certain extent though perhaps even "mind blowing" may be too strong of a word. More like pleasantly amused. ;)Quote:
Though my main reason for responding is mention that you do not speak for me, as I started on the 16 bit era, and FF VIII was far from Mind blowing, in every respect. (Except for graphics and Rinoa's hotness.)
There is a lot of issues with the battle system but as I said, despite its munchkin-ness, I still had fun with it cause it was so radically different. Magic played a different role, acquiring it was amusing. The GF summons were very impressive the first time round... 80th time not so much but oh well... The syste was far from perfect but at least the game attempts to balance it out unlike other titles I could mention *cough*FFX*cough* with the leveling system and the end game bosses having auto kill GF abilities and the ability to eliminate magic.Quote:
The GF system had some decent Ideas to it, the ability to augment your character by combining him with a GF. However, the FF VIII system took it to far, making it like FF VII in the fact it didn't matter which characters you used, the GF's were what made them exactly what they were. If the GF's were used more like Augments, as the Guardians of Wild Arms 2 were, the system would have been much better.
Here I will disagree cause I find VIII's soundtrack to be mostly forgettable except for Eyes on Me and Libereli Fatali (sp?).Quote:
However, I will give this game a few deserved props.
The first thing that comes to mind is a lot of the Music of FF VIII was remarkable. Not near a big a fan as eyes on me as most, but so long as I'm not paying attention to the words, it's a decent listen, but the rest of the game had much better music.
You're dead to me Neo Cracker... Triple Triad is like the best mini-game of all the FFs:pQuote:
And finally, the card game. I hate that damned thing with a passion, though had it not been for FF VIII starting that trend, we wouldn't be blessed with the amazingly deep and awesome cardgame of Xenosaga III. :love:
Please, Hot n' Cold is far more epic. EPIC!
How can you even compare Laguna to Squall and Zidane? I know this line has become highly overused between the two of us by this point, but you are dead to me as well. :(
I'll avoid complaining about Laguna again though. :p
And having played through FF VIII, Squall really doesn't seem to slowly come out of his shell. It's a long, drawn out process, that just kind of happens all at once at one point. And, throughout the game, he does what you say, pushes people away and tries to justify it in his head. But that's basically all he does. His entire focus was on that one aspect of his personality, and that's hardly a deep character to me.
When an SNES game, within the first portion of the game, can add more to a character then the entirety of FF VIII did for Squall, then they have failed on a massive level. I'd start siting examples, but I have not the time. :p
And on one final note, that damned Draw system is something that I hope, in the remainder of my life, will never be put into another game. It was not 'amusing'. It was mindless busy work.
The better part of me is saying not to bother, but here goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
What ambition are you talking about? Could you please give us better examples of what you mean?
Stealing magic is a rare mechanic that is simply apart of VIII's unique FF battle system.
Summons that act like equipment and skills? You mean like Espers in FFVI? They gave abilities and augmented statistics just like in VIII, it was just a longer list in VIII.
FFVIII is not a sci fi story. The story does not deal with issues regarding science. This had already been done in VI and VII with experimenting on humans. Science & Technology play no larger a role in its setting than swords, sorcery, and magical beasts (Guardian Forces) do.
FFVIII also has the same art structure as FFVII - 2d backgrounds in the field screen, 3d environments in the battle screen, CGI cutscenes interlaced. The cutscenes showed the characters more, and as such had much better character models.
Crossing over into the 32-bit era, myself and fellow RPG enthusiasts all regarded FFVII as the game we had all been waiting for. VIII wasn't the revolution, it was the first FF to be developed after it, and it shows from how it utilizes the same art structure as FFVII.
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As for what I love about this game, I really like the scenes it puts you in. The Edea Assassination, the Ragnarok crashing into the Lunatic Pandora, there's just amazing, imaginative scenarios the developers have come up with and put you in the middle of. This makes for memorable experiences and a great story that I feel FFVIII is cherished for. It's what the Final Fantasy franchise does best, and this game partially stands out amongst the rest for.
It is but Triple Triad has held my interest far longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
I feel its in how you see it. I personally notice his small changes and I feel it is gradual, until he finally "breaks" at the start of Disc 3. Squall created this mental defenses and I don't see him "warming up" as much as being "awkward" and "pushed into an emotional corner" which is much more human to me than someone who starts off as a jerk and just gradually becomes friendly. Neku from TWEWY is also simialr in this regard as he's a total asshole in the first chapter, becomes sympathetic in the 2nd, and finally becomes likable in the 3rd. I feel his actions do become less strong and I see him desperately try to hold onto his old way of thinking. His pushing away becomes less and less natural. To me, I find this to be growth and honestly, I like him being a loner asshole to begin with. I always seemed to agree with him about everything he thought concerning his crazy party and bull:bou::bou::bou::bou: that went on in his story.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
Hey, I'm not saying he's Shakespeare or anything but I found it to be rather pleasant. There are better characters developments in gaming but I felt Squall was pretty good.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
I actually enjoyed it, the concept seemed a bit radical to me for some reason. Better than "matching game" in X.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
The Drawing system hell just not having a traditional MP system seemed rather radical to me. The idea you have to steal your magic and that it wasn't natural for people was just an intriguing concept to me. Once again this may stem from my love of VI where all magic is considered some unnatural and evil force in the world. Its not a concept seen in good traditional "fantasy" stories.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
Summons themselves are no longer restricted to MP and now have life of their own. You could have summons killed (theoretically though it rarely happened) so its was interesting cause the game tries to make summons like characters, though it failed in terms of plot.
As for the Junction system being similar to the Esper/Relic system... I think it only seems that way on paper but its completely different in practice. The Espers stat system only affected character on level up and for many people, they may never even notice it through a first or second playthrough. The game does not go to great lengths to make a big deal out of it. Hell, most of the system is kinda optional except if you want to learn magic but you can ignore all of it and the game can fall back on its unique class system to see you through it.
Junction is the Alpha and Omega of VIII. Your normal stats are terrible and Junction is not only your means to access abilities but its your actual stats. Its almost like breaking apart the Job class system and reducing it to the statistical level. Magic itself not only needs to be drawn out from enemies but they can be utlized for different purposes that go beyond their basic function of heal/attack/support. Taking a few cues from the Materia system, magic can be used to imbue your weapons with elemental/status properties as well as for defense.
Magic itself becomes not just another means to heal and attack but can be used to alter your characters statistics. This is a very new concept, there might be a few similar systems but not as direct as VIIIs.
Summons are now regarded as "living companions" that can be killed in battle, magic is now a resource, and junctioning is your only means of not making this game a living nightmare to complete as your party really is "mortal". There not like Cloud with genetic implants and DBZ style wire-fu shenanigans, or like Terra who is half human and half living embodiment of magical energy, or Cecil whose bloodline is responsible for most magical and technological achievements of his world, nor are they blessed with a god-like power of the crystals that somehow seperate them from modern man and places them on the road to save the world. Without the Junctions, they are simply normal.
EDIT: I also like how certain RPG staples were changed, "leveling up" the cornerstone of the JRPG and most RPGs in general is now considered a bad thing. Enemies no longer drop money, instead you get paid a salary. Both of thses were very unheard of concepts in console RPGs at the time if you think about it.
This I feel is what made this game so different from a lot of things that came before it. I think FFII is the only other one like this and since I played VIII before II, it has the bigger influence for me in regards to this train of thought.
I disagree and I do feel the science element far outweighed the fantasy elements. This is my opinion and you won't be able to change my mind, so don't turn this back into that debate again as it really has nothing to do with whether VIII is a great game or not as I never implied VIII was bad for being sci-fi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
We don't need to derail this thread any further. ;)
When was squall backed into an emotional corner or forced into an awkward feeling? He shut out everyone from the beginning, and that hadn't changed at all through the story, until the end.
The only time I recall the 'emotional corner' or 'awkward feeling' was that whole scene about Seifer being 'dead' even though everyone clearly saw him leave willingly with the sorceress, and Squall ran out of the room screaming at the thought someone 'might' talk about him after he dies...