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Originally Posted by
VeloZer0
In regards to handicapping myself in FFX, sure what I was doing was completely optional, but it is a little different as it is encouraged by the game. There is a 0% chance on the first play through that I am spontaneously going to decide 'hey, why don't I try to kill all the monsters by over 50% of their max hp!'. Had I not done something like this the game would be boring, but I see mountains of distinction between a game mechanic like this and something that the game doesn't encourage at all. (I'm not meaning to say the game itself discourages this either.)
I would argue its no different from what I was doing with XII by making jobs. I literally looked at the equipment set-up and said to myself "Hey, I can actually do a makeshift FFTactics Thief with this gear... and looking over here I could make a Paladin... Hmm." so I went into the game looking at what if offered and made what I wanted since the game never made any clarification of how to build my party, it just gave me the tools and I ran with it. :D
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A) that is not terribly difficult to accomplish that set up especially in the original with the JP trick, with the exception of the equipment but even then, its not like this build isn't terribly overpowered even with sub-par weapons. Considering the high level increase you would get as well, you could easily waltz through the story mode.
And how many people would know about the JP trick on the first play through? Unless you are researching for guides on how to play the game you would never know about this, and seeing how we are discussing building games for players who interested in experimenting and min/maxing it seems an inappropriate example. (I know there are people who would do this, and my heart cries for them.)
I'm afraid guides are the norm nowadays, even if they didn't buy the official guide they are probably still looking up Gamefaqs or other sites for ways to get the info. The days of games having little nuance secrets that only the dedicated would discover are long gone.
Also, I would say that building the party set up is still not terribly difficult without the JP trick, as long as you stuck to what you absolutely needed, you could still build this party set-up in a few hours. This is the fundamental flaw of Leveling systems, it takes skill to win a battle in other genres but for RPGs all you need to do is level up. This is why I do enjoy games that discourage power leveling by placing level caps, or lowering the EXP gain from enemies as you get higher in levels or just making the level gaps enormous.
Also, I feel anyone who is interested in min/max will eventually turn to a guide anyway cause there are some things that you will never grasp or notice without one. FFTactics is a prime example as I've been playing the game for years and I still learn new things.
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The beef I was trying to explain with FFXII was that despite the fact that I am always trying to find ways to do things better I never once felt that there was a good reason to change. I tried experimenting with different weapons/magic at points in the game, but every time I just concluded that what it didn't offer anything more than what I was doing. And talking in a hypothetical sense, I think you can agree that even if a game has the most interesting and involved system in the world if you have to play it through, get into an argument with someone on a forum years later, then go back again to finally experience it, it probably isn't the best designed.
I feel the best reason to change would be simply cause you were not having fun. To be honest, I never said XII has the best system but I feel its one of the better ones in the series, at least from what I was playing before hand.
As for not "enjoying it the first time around" while I would agree it does not make a system "great" I don't feel it makes it "bad" either. VII and X were both huge disappointments for myself but I still at least went back and tried them both out some more and really began to experiment with them more. X unfortunately is far too linear and is difficulty is non-existent so even though I've played three times, I find I dislike the game more each time I play it.
VII was a completely different story and I do have to give a bit of a shout out to Bolivar cause our arguing back and forth on VI and VII's battle systems made me eventually go back and really play with it a few times and I guess I finally got my "eureka" moment cause I do feel VII has a fun combat system if a bit too unbalanced for my taste (my main gripes for the system still stand). A recent playthrough of VIII was creating a similar effect. So yes, while I can agree its not a great system I don't feel it necessarily means you can truly write it off either.
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Taking FFT as an example once again (dam, I need a better variety of games I idolize :)), when I started the game I set up something I thought was good, but as I played I experimented and learned, all in a big vicious cycle that let to me reading through the entire BMG start to finish several play throughs later. Contrast to FFXII where I looked at my options at the start, set it up, experimented as I went and didn't ever feel like there was something I was missing.
Though your options for min/max are wide in the game and it is what brings me back, I guess the lack of the games storyline difficulty by end game sorta cheapens godhood for me. I've gotten good enough with FFTs system that I actually do have to hold myself back (I had a playthrough where I made Delita a Mastered Knight/ Squire/ Chemist and he was almost finished with Black Mage before I fought Algus). So I usually stick to using generics cause the story characters are too powerful or unbalanced in a lot of cases. Its almost getting to the point where I've been playing with rules about not using Ramza.
So while I discover new things to try and do, I kinda know in the back of my head that its kinda pointless cause the game can't offer anything challenging enough not to mention that FFT does have its fair share of "game breaking" elements (Cid and Balthier anyone?). What ultimately does ruin my min/max joys is when the game offers something that makes it all seem worthless. This goes into my gripe of VI and VII where I would build elaborate set-ups and tell friends about it only to have them retort, "that's cool but I just Quick/Ultima on Kefka or I used KoTR on Sephiroth". Kinda kills the buzz and that is what real game breakers are for me. Just a little side rant I guess.
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Which brings me to my next point. I REALLY REALLY wanted to like FFXII. The game reeks of production value, the graphics are stunning for the PS2, the voice acting and character modeling all fit excellently with each other, and the fact that it is a numbered FF title to begin with. I was disparately playing through the game hoping for it to get better, I really wanted to enjoy it. This is one of the reasons that I get so upset about the title, if it was just pure bad I could write it off and be done with it, but (to me) the sheer amount of wasted potential was a crime. Anyways the reason I am writing what must appear such a vicious appraisal of FFXII is to convey that as I was playing I wasn't trying to write the game off, I was desperately trying to find something to like about the game. (For the record I'm talking about plot and game play here, even if plot is outside the scope of this discussion.)
I can't argue, I have similar problems with VII, VIII, and X... well no I've decided X is just bad :p
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Anyways, I don't think we have more to discuss on this, we are just going to keep rehashing our last page of posts in a cyclical fashion, though if you see some angle we haven't explored I am still game for continuing this.
I guess we have derailed the discussion long enough ;)
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On to another topic that has been suggested to me through the course of the last page of discussion. How do you make dungeons still feel dangerous? In the old days of FFI it was simple, just have monster encounters who could wipe out your entire party. Understandably having so many game-overs is not a way to move copies, and in order to become more mainstream you can’t really have the player getting the game-over screen too many times.
To me (I am far from an expert and I know others on th board can dissect the history of FF/RPGs with far more expertise than I can.) it seems like the danger of a dungeon came more in the form of resource management. Resource management was probably more important in FFI than later titles, but the threat of death from random encounters was considerably less in later titles, bringing the threat of running out of resources (I’m using this as a generic term for mana/items) to the forefront. In FFIV I never worried about running into a random encounter that would kill me, but I did worry about running into enemy encounters that would cause me to use to many heals or offensive magic to kill. That way there was still an edge to exploring the dungeon. Taking the side path felt like it was an actual risk, not just something to make the dungeon a little less linear. Fast forward, and when was the last time you felt like you were in peril in a dungeon in an FF title?
I feel they really need to bring this feel of danger in exploring a dungeon back. Obviously having to restart the dungeon numerous times keeps you on your toes, but I don’t think will be the financial success SE needs. Resource management appeals to me, but from what I’ve experienced from players in general, not so much to others.
Any thoughts on this?
Dungeon design is terribly tricky and I feel XIII has, if anything, brought this into the forefront of discussions for fans and lines are being drawn.
Item management is fun but it bugs me when its the core challenge aspect like in early FF games or the DQ series. I can't say I don't like it either since there is plenty of this in the Persona/SMT series. MP restoring items are like priceless artifacts that come from another age in those games and due to physical abilites costing HP from your characters, you will burn through items quickly so item management is imperative.
I feel the best way to make a dungeon more challenging would be to enact certain rules upon the player that limit their capabilities. Not counting overall stuff like level caps, I'm thinking more like the Dark Elf cave from FFIV where you suddenly found yourself having to weaken your party in a cave filled with creatures that really require you to have top gear. Its one of the more definitive dungeons for me cause I feel its the point in the game where you suddenly realize the strategy behind the class system in this game. You lose your front line tank and force him to become your squishy healer.
I got a kick out of this with the optional Esper battles as well when they began to enforce rules upon you that limit your options and force your to change your strategies. Losing the ability to use Fight or Magic commands don't seem so bad when you hear it but after experiencing it its another story. Imagine a swamp that has a thick mist that prevents magic from being used and its also poisonous, forcing you to plow through your items and have to manage them carefully. Lets also say you can't where heavy armor or your party will sink as well, forcing your heavy melee characters to take more damage than normal. What if the melee characters followed SMT rules and thus physical special attacks consume HP... Granted this scenario would probably be too much for scrubs and people who only want to play the game for the story but this is at least where I would go with it.
Course the dungeon would still have to be a maze cause it would lose its frightening effect if it were just a simple line. ;)
I would also maybe implement puzzles that change the effects of the dungeon for the player. Most puzzles simply involve opening a way to the next area or getting out of the dungeon but what if your choices changed the nature of the dungeon itself? Trying to take the easy way out makes the enemies much more powerful, your party may be forced to run a lot and lose valuable experience and items and thus the game becomes harder. You could cause an earthquake that transformed a simple dungeon into a massive labyrinth with dead ends but lots of loot and consequently lots of encounter. You could cut down the encounters or make the enemies weaker but this creates multiple new puzzles you must solve to get past the nefarious lair. Of course to make this seamless it will be a combination of factors and you may never know what choices you make will effect the place.
I feel their are multiple ways to do this that remain untapped, but if RPGs continue the trend of "interactive movies" this will never really come to pass.
