XIII: The Flaw thread

But what makes FF great? I dispise X and love XII, don't think much of VII but love IX and like VIII. Should SE make FFs like those then? Then you won't like it. But if they make it like X or VII again, I won't like it!

So you can't really say they should make it like this or like that FF. There will always be someone to complain, and people who don't like this particular one just have to deal with it and move on to another game, because the game's out and nothing will change. Pray the next one will be more to your tastes, which is debatable since XIV is already hated purely for being MMO. Or look at other games out there. There are other RPGs on both PS3 and 360 by now, so it's not as if FF is the only choice.

Or keep playing the classics, if they're that fantastic and unsurpassable. *shrugs*
Thing is, some people will start with XIII and think of it as the best one in the series, just like some think VII is the best and like I think III (NES/DS) is the best. BUt you don't see me complaining the recent FFs aren't like III.

I want crystals, jobs and floating continents, damn it! :D

As for flaws... Getting gil is just too damn hard in this one. It was tough in XII, but XIII went way overboard with it.

What makes FF good?

1.Story
2.gameplay
3. Choice
4. graphics.

FF12 took away 2 and 3 a bit and didn't have 1. FF13 took away 2 and 3 almost completely.

Simple. Oh yeah and I was joking about 4.

>>> Biggest Flaw in the Game: No victory fanfare..:luca:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

FF13 took away (gameplay) almost completely.

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Says the guy who hasn't PLAYED the damn game. They didn't take away gameplay, if they did, it wouldn't be a game. This is not an argument. This is fact. Just because you don't LIKE the gameplay (despite not playing it, hur dur) doesn't mean there ISN'T any.

And to say that FFXII took away choice is amazingly wrong. Just terrible. It has, what, the most sidequests of any FF game... ever? And, again, just because you don't LIKE them (they were pretty bland, but hey, it's your CHOICE to do them or not!) doesn't mean they're not there. And if you don't mean sidequests by "choice" please direct me to an FF with said "choice" because I'd certainly like to play it. Hell, even as far as main game choice, FFXII still wins in that you can explore most of the world from the getgo (assuming you can run from all the monsters =p).

I can't believe I'm still arguing with you, you never seem to make any sort of sense at all.

He can watch youtube videos.Some sites have players playing the game and posting long episodes of their gameplay that you can watch.

So that's more than sufficient for him to get an opinion of the game.

As for FFXII..the hunts aren't sidequests in my opinion.
The sidequests were the silly fishing game, the silly running game, trying to recover those silly chicken like things that had run off, and a few others.
All of them of dubious value with not much return imo.

You can argue that FFXII gambits took away a lot of the choice as once you knew what to plug it that was it.

As others have pointed out there are limits in FFXIII on what characters you control and what they can do.

shrugs.If that's not limiting then what is ?

If people such as arcane are satisfied with the game then what's the point in posting in a thread about its flaws ? :confused:

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

You can argue that FFXII gambits took away a lot of the choice as once you knew what to plug it that was it.

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I don't know if XII is necessarily this straight-forward. Of course, I haven't played it since 2007, but I remember there were always Gambit tweaks to be made as the player leveled up characters differently, explored new areas, or learned new Gambits. I found there was often drawbacks with each gain, and crafting the perfect set of Gambit for a given region of enemies was immensely satisfying. There are, of course, easy Gambits to create (there must be in order for less patient players to make it through), but the biggest joy of it is balancing unorthodox strategies with efficiency - or at least it's a joy to my customization-loving heart.

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

He can watch youtube videos.Some sites have players playing the game and posting long episodes of their gameplay that you can watch.

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Which he has already admitted to not really doing either. :V

And the reason I'm posting in this thread is that, unlike our friend seifer, I'm willing to admit that this game, like every other, has its ups and downs. FFXIII has its flaws, sure. But don't think that doesn't mean I'm not going to defend it when someone is just spouting nonsense about it.

Yes, Final Fantasy XIII is VERY limited and restrictive, I never argued that it wasn't. But honestly, the gameplay was fun. I enjoyed playing the game. To say that FFXIII has "almost eliminated" gameplay is a completely laughable notion and not a very good standing ground for criticizing the game. If the argument is that you only control one character, I point you to Kingdom Hearts, or Crisis Core, or, hell, most non-RPGs.

And yeah, the hunts in FFXII are, by definition, sidequests, though I'm definitely with you on them not having any real value other than elongating the game. Not gonna get into Gambits since that's another issue entirely, but I'll just say you can turn them off if it irks you that much, and that part of the gameplay comes from managing the Gambits, as you can't just set them up and walk away for most bosses.

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

He can watch youtube videos.Some sites have players playing the game and posting long episodes of their gameplay that you can watch.

So that's more than sufficient for him to get an opinion of the game.

As for FFXII..the hunts aren't sidequests in my opinion.
The sidequests were the silly fishing game, the silly running game, trying to recover those silly chicken like things that had run off, and a few others.
All of them of dubious value with not much return imo.

You can argue that FFXII gambits took away a lot of the choice as once you knew what to plug it that was it.

As others have pointed out there are limits in FFXIII on what characters you control and what they can do.

shrugs.If that's not limiting then what is ?

If people such as arcane are satisfied with the game then what's the point in posting in a thread about its flaws ? :confused:

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I'm so bored of the arguement "Gambits play the game for you". They are a tool to reduce tediousness. How much you use them is entirely up to you. My advice to people who whinge about them is to TURN THEM OFF.

FFXIII has two characters controlled by AI that you cannot turn off and have limited if any real control over. The stagger system drives the pace of the battle so much that it's really not feasable to use any command other than auto battle. Which means you only need to switch paradigms which is effectively deciding how the game plays for you.

Side quests are by definition anything which deviates from the plot so i'm afraid your arguement that hunts not being sidequests is wrong. Hunts in FFXIII don't open up until post game so therefore are not sidequests. FFXIII has no sidequests, the battles are played for you and you only need to walk in straight lines. This might appeal to you but at least understand that there are alot of people who don't want games played for them and are somewhat disapointed by the lack of actual gameplay in this "game".

When it comes to gambits vs. paradigms, I have no problem with a character acting autonomously in principle, what I have a problem with is that I'm playing Final Fantasy not Carnage Heart. Paradigms are simple; you set them up and then the other people act reasonably sensibly according to what you've deemed wisest. You make quick, tactical decisions in a rapid fighting system where your choices have immediate impact. You don't have to sit down and bloody well program the game.

With gambits you have to sit down and go through a whole load of different possibilities and it is boring. It's not tactical, it's micromanagement. I like micromanagement (hell I play Space Empires V) but it just bored me to tears. They don't reduce tedium, they increase it. Massively.

idk, FFXII was a better game in terms of its constituent parts but they added up to not very much. FFXIII's individual parts aren't as good but the whole thing works a lot better. (And I think this distinction is why seiferalmasy just doesn't get why we're bitching at him; you can see all these individual parts but you can't see how they all work together unless you actually play the thing).

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

Battles were fun in previous FF's because it wasn't about Buff-stagger-attack-win. But here, the only thing to do is win.

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True, I'm so used to that formula with Hope/Vanille/Fang as Syn/Rav/Sab to boost party/start damage, then switch to either Rav/Sab/Com or Rav/Rav/Com. Its the easiest way to win, most fights last less than 1 minute.
Also the only aim is too win, and as fast as possible, for me this combination is best for that... but god is it repetitive... every battle exactly the same thing, buff then switch to attack, finish.

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

Battles should be FUN, bosses should be challenging. When enemies start to appear that are impossible to stagger and have HP in the millions, battles can last upwards of 10minutes. Every encounter feels like a chore

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Is it only me that found the whole "buff-stagger-attack-win" aspect really restrictive on a party?
I wanted to change party members and roles for some fun, but in doing so made battles much longer, and much more boring (since I didn't have a dedicated synergist).
The party of Fang/Snow/Lightning just was horrible to play with, battles played out too slow, did little damage compared to my usual party... was just not fun at all... all because I didn't have any buffs, and Fang was only de-buffing enemies, but still not too helpful
To me this sucked a fair bit of fun out of the game....

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

FFXIII has two characters controlled by AI that you cannot turn off and have limited if any real control over. The stagger system drives the pace of the battle so much that it's really not feasable to use any command other than auto battle. Which means you only need to switch paradigms which is effectively deciding how the game plays for you.

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Yes! auto-battle makes me feel like I'm less involved since the AI is smart enough to pick the right spells etc... well mainly as a ravenger.
The only times when I didn't auto-battle when I wanted to see a prettier version of a spell, firaga opposed to the AI using 5 fires....

I doubt that would change his arguments or those of the people who disagree with him.

I haven't played FFXIII and I haven't watched everything available online...I did watch one person on a site play a portion of the game.

To me you want sidequests during the game.To provide you with items you can use in the game and allow you to do something else you find entertaining if you want to take your time finishing the game. For sidequests to be delayed until after the game seems counterproductive to me.

I still don't feel FFXII's hunts were sidequests despite what others who post here may think.:roll2

shrugs.

We hear there's isn't going to be any DLC...because Kitase and Toriyama feel the game is good as it is and doesn't need anything else. Here's one of several interviews available online with Square developers confirming there won't be DLC:

No Final Fantasy XIII DLC Because It's Already 100% Massive - PCWorld

IMO that in itself is a flaw...that there won't be an DLC...:mad2:

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

I still don't feel FFXII's hunts were sidequests despite what others who post here may think.:roll2

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But they are, by definition. You can do them during the main storyline to take a break from the narrative, you get rewards for doing them... I don't see how this is an issue. D: Even FFXIII's, to my knowledge, can be done during the main storyline (once you get to Pulse)

I don't know what to say about the complaints against the battle system. If it's that boring, then skip as many battles as you can like I did so that bosses were actually challenging and you did have to stay on your toes to prevent losing. And hell, is pushing auto-battle really any different than pushing attack like in any other Final Fantasy? You're still basically doing the same thing, it just doesn't have you choose your target. And hell, this entire argument ceases to make sense when you can SET THE BATTLE SPEED ON LOW AND IGNORE THE AUTO-BATTLE!

What is peoples' problems with having the option(!!!) to have the game take some of the tediousness away for you? It's not like you enter a battle and CAN'T do anything. And you know what? As far as I'm concerned, if you haven't PLAYED the game, your arguments against the battle system are pretty much null and void. I really don't care how many videos you watch, you can't know how a game plays if you don't play it yourself.

In terms of story the biggest flaw for me was the lack of any development for the NPCs, except maybe Serah, and lack of a true antagonist.

For gameplay my biggest gripe is that there was not very many side things to do. You don't get any extra quests until Chapter 11 and most of it is just hunting marks. It pissed me off that there was this giant gaming city (Nautilis) and YOU CAN'T EVEN PLAY THERE. Imagine going to Gold Saucer and seeing all this fun stuff happening and you can't even do any of it. So mad.

Also the areas lacked variation in terms of progression through them. They were mostly 'go straight until the next CS', (except for Taejin's Tower, which was my favorite).

arcane. As it is I won't debate it.
If you feel the way you do that's fine.It's a matter of opinion.

I felt the FFXII hunts were onerous and weren't worth the effort.

I did suggest in the general FF thread a few moths back that Square bring in some PC RPG people, maybe from Bethesda, maybe former Black Isle employees, people like that to help with FF and that idea was quickly shot down by others.
I think it would help rejuvenate the franchise though.:greenie:
just my opinion.:redface:

Fun Final Fantasy Fact: Nobody can ever agree on which are good and which are bad.

Suggestion: let each other like or dislike whatever they want - nobody owes anyone an explanation of why they feel either way about it. This also means that even those of us who kind of liked this game are fully entitled to pick holes in it when posting in a clearly marked 'flaw thread' :)