Why do we Western gamers always seem to like such "big, bad, and edgy" characters?

You're not doing much for your cause by comparing one fictional character to another when we're discussing believability and realism. That said, Aladdin has a magic carpet and an all-powerful genie as best friends; he's not exactly the pinnacle example of a self-made man.

Not all young or effeminate characters are wusses are pansies. Sweeping and general statements like this only make you look further out of touch with the discussion. I do appreciate the effort to bring up another point instead of admitting defeat on the previous one, though.

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Originally Posted by Proxy

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Originally Posted by kotora

lol your premise doesn't make much sense with linkin park and hannah montana being underground and edgy


Anyway, the Japanese like them girly dudes so they won't have to feel as bad about their wieners being so small. Which of course was caused by the radiation of them bombs the white man dropped on their asses.

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coming from the guy with justin bieber for the avatar...

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hey kotora, you must've missed the memo. Bieber has the smallest dick in the world!

On topic: I don't know about "cutesy", but I like Cloud as a character and most other sites (after the release of Advent Children) consider him a shemale femine character! I don't mind, but that's not how I would describe him. At the same time I also like Kratos from God of War series. He's not as deep as a character, but he was something like an inspiration back in highschool to me and my friends to get all beefy and muscular lol. Both characters look cool to me and are extremely appealing in different ways I suppose. So i guess I don't fit the stereotype that's enforced on western gamers.

I don't really think Cloud is the type of character that SuperMillionaire is referring to, though. Recent incarnations of Cloud might be effeminate, but he's still a muscle-bound genetically enhanced super-soldier who wields a sword almost as big as he is. He may not have a permanent five o'clock shadow, but he's still what I'd call a badass.

I think he's talking more about the preteen and teenage leads like Vaan, Hope, and such.

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

I don't really think Cloud is the type of character that SuperMillionaire is referring to, though. Recent incarnations of Cloud might be effeminate, but he's still a muscle-bound genetically enhanced super-soldier who wields a sword almost as big as he is. He may not have a permanent five o'clock shadow, but he's still what I'd call a badass.

I think he's talking more about the preteen and teenage leads like Vaan, Hope, and such.

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Oookay I get it. Yeah I hate both Vaan and Hope. God awful addition to both games. Here's hoping Versus and XV won't have any of those types.

It still seems like you're simply comparing Vaan to Kratos. Yet your argument alludes to comparisons between the likes of Sora, Link, or Locke as wusses, compared to the likes of Prince of Persia, the hero in Fable, or Zevrand from Dragon Age as big bad and edgey. Bare in mind, Japan has Akuma and Chris Redfield (now in one game, too!). And people love them. And Vaan is still a pansy compared to them as well. The generalization doesn't even hold that much water if you speak just about Japan. Granted, people can't usually relate to Akuma the way they can Vaan. But myself, and many others probably don't even want to relate to Vaan. I'd much prefer Locke, or Cid Highwind, or Balthier. Its not a hatred of Japanese characters as a whole. Its just a hatred of that one Japanese archetype

The thing is, I've seen YouTube videos comparing cutesy characters with "big, bad, and edgy" characters on YouTube. They compare them for the sake of bashing the cutesy character.

And it doesn't just go for boys, either; I've noticed that a large majority of gamers on many forums (including this one) also tend to hate "perky young girl" archetype characters such as Vanille.

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

I've noticed that a large majority of gamers on many forums (including this one) also tend to hate "perky young girl" archetype characters such as Vanille.

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I'm sorry, did you like Vanille? I completely agree with the hatred towards her, but for other "cutesy perky girl" archetypes are okay as long as they fit the context of the story. If the female lead in the game was like that, it would have to fit the game's arc (lets say it was a story based in highschool or something). just my 2cents

1. YouTube is never a good source; it's full of trolling rants in both the videos and the comments.

2. The "perky young girl" archetype is usually synonymous with the "obnoxiously energetic and borderline retarded" archetype. It can be done well, but usually it's just annoying.

Its also extremely over done. And it again involves an immature and really young character, typically. I moved on from that. I don't need an edgy girl to take its place. But someone who isn't struggling with ADD and a crayon addiction would be nice. I'm not a 12-year-old. The character itself usually isn't a 12-year-old. I don't want to play someone who acts like a 12-year-old. Especially when they aren't. Vanille's like 20 years old. Aeris and Tifa are the same age. They've got way more maturity than her, and I like them a lot, and they're hardly anything close to edgy or bad-ass. They're also from another Japanese game. So again, the comparison can stand, even in the country of origin. Some games just have annoying characters. And unless they star Jar Jar Binks, its very likely those games are from Japan. Because for some reason, Japan is in love with immaturity in certain regards

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

And it doesn't just go for boys, either; I've noticed that a large majority of gamers on many forums (including this one) also tend to hate "perky young girl" archetype characters such as Vanille.

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I liked Rikku... >.>
perky indeed O_o

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Originally Posted by Vyk

Its also extremely over done. And it again involves an immature and really young character, typically. I moved on from that. I don't need an edgy girl to take its place. But someone who isn't struggling with ADD and a crayon addiction would be nice. I'm not a 12-year-old. The character itself usually isn't a 12-year-old. I don't want to play someone who acts like a 12-year-old. Especially when they aren't. Vanille's like 20 years old. Aeris and Tifa are the same age. They've got way more maturity than her, and I like them a lot, and they're hardly anything close to edgy or bad-ass. They're also from another Japanese game. So again, the comparison can stand, even in the country of origin. Some games just have annoying characters. And unless they star Jar Jar Binks, its very likely those games are from Japan. Because for some reason, Japan is in love with immaturity in certain regards

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Number one, ADD is an adult problem too.

Number two, Vanille doesn't have a "crayon addiction."

And number three, in my opinion, acting like a child and being immature are two different things. Acting older than you are and being mature are also two different things.

You're right, acting like a child and being immature are two different things, and the former is constantly more obnoxious than the latter. I would argue that immaturity lends itself to allowing a character to function as some comic relief. Zidane, for example, consistently acts immature. His immaturity is appropriate to the context of the narrative, however.

Vanille, Yuffie, Selphie, and Rikku are all often considered obnoxious because their "moments of levity," (if you want to give them that much credit) are poorly timed and without cease. When they're happy they're too happy and it's annoying. When they're sad, they whine and moan dramatically and it's annoying.

I think you are confusing cause and effect. Women like men who know what they want and stand their ground. So America is more open about it with their non-existent role models like Rambo and Rocky and Van Damme characters. Japanese culture is vastly different and I wouldn't be surprised if the younger generation developed this sort of softer male persona as a reaction to female pressure.

But I don't know. That was just conjecture.

A little immaturity is pretty healthy in my opinion. Acting like a spoiled or mentally handicapped child is not, however. And it really doesn't matter who struggles with ADD in real life. The problem is the game characters. You can have someone who isn't child-like who has ADD and not have them be annoying. Its a lot harder to think of game characters like that though. Roman from Grand Theft Auto 4 seems to have ADD. I'm pretty sure Joker from Mass Effect has it. Neither of them are really annoying in my opinion. Nor are they edgy or badass (though if you define badass as awesome, then a case could probably be made from Joker-adoring fans). And I didn't say Vanille had a crayon addiction. I can't think of any fictional characters who do, let alone ones from specific gaming genres :P I was emphasizing my stance. As in she may as well have one. Though I don't feel all that comfortable using her as a sole example since I've never played that game. A lot of it has to do with the characterizations, hers seemed like it would be the most annoying however (and Hope). Rikku was the last hyper-active childish character in a Final Fantasy I had to endure. And I actually enjoyed her. Everyone pegs Yuffie into that category as well, though I don't see it, myself, and I didn't hate her either. But they've always danced along the line of what's annoying for those types of characters. Selphie annoyed me

My point however is that Aeris (for example) has a definite child-like appeal. And yet I don't find her annoying. Moderation in all things I suppose. Its a good mantra to live by. And especially good to create fiction with. You don't want to over-do anything. Especially character traits which grate on nerves. But I know the Japanese are fully capable of creating believable, amusing, interesting characters

People need to stop bitching about ADD and :bou::bou::bou::bou:. Pretty much most fictional badass soldier dudes have it and it's probably pretty common among real ones as well. Attention deficit disorders are not disorders when society wants you to run around and shoot at stuff instead of sitting behind a desk all day.