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Do you think so? You get to choose a class, equip a couple items as weapons, and maybe select a few secondary skills if you've classed them enough times to fill up the spots (I wasn't able to on my 60 hour playthrough).
But other than that? No armor, accessories, customizing actives and passives or multiclassing. It's really about the same as Shining Force and that was 20 years ago.
During the main story its fairly limited, but the customization doesnt come from accessories. It comes from the child mechanic, supports and pair up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
If you do enough research you can very nicely customize your future child characters depending on who you marry your female characters off to. Do I want this character to be an offense lead? A magic support? Do I want this character to be based around rallying and buffing my other units or perhaps using a few breaker skills to harm the enemies offense with a specific weapon that would otherwise be a huge threat.
Skills and reclassing is where the customization lies, and there are limitless options if you're not boring and go for the most optimal route (And even then, coming up with the most optimized skill sets can be quite fun). There are a ton of character and support options to choose from so you can make some very interesting teams.
The customization isnt that important on normal or hard, but once you hit lunatic(+) you can utilize some creative skill combinations to tackle problems in interesting ways that would have been unnecessary in the lower down difficulties (and probably impractical because normal and hard has far lower enemy density).
Interceptors playthrough on Lunatic+ over on serenesforest shows a great example of this as he utilizes a set of classes and weapons that were previously thought to suck as the key to his success.
Skills, supports, marriage, pair up and the reclassing system of this game provide quite a lot of customization if you're willing to dig your teeth into it and think outside the box.
This has been a very interesting discussion. I can see some of the flaws you guys are mentioning but I don't really care. This game is awesome. The sheer volume of content makes up for the lack of verticality or customization past the standard reclassing.
Until you guys revived this thread I had totally forgotten about the online component of this game. Today I finally went on for the first time and found a ton of awesome equipment, new maps, new battles, and a score of past characters waiting for me to challenge them. So much to do! :mwahaha:
I'm glad that the revival was successful. Thanks to skyblade for making me nearly derail the "what are you currently playing" thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
And I'm with you Del, the negatives of this game dont keep me from adoring it. I only review and criticize the crap out of games that I truly love. If a game bores me I dont typically spend the time to analyze it. But definitely, this game has an absurd amount of replay-ability and thats what keeps me coming back. And being a challenge run loving guy I can really customize some nice challenge runs given the options available. From something simple like no master seal runs to even LTC (lowest turn count) runs theres a lot that can be done here even ignoring the vast amount of post-game content. This game has taken over my life since I got it late December, and I'll probably be playing it for months to come.
This is the "major problem" I mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
There is actually a ton of customization in the game.
But it's hard to get to. Reclassing in a game like Final Fantasy Tactics is easy, where you can change classes freely. In Fire Emblem Awakening, you need to earn levels in each class before you can shift again. So reclassing and recustomizing is slow.
Then too, the Skills are another huge part of customization. And to get them, you need to level up in the various classes. So, again, there's a huge investment to the customization.
And the game itself, especially on the lower difficulties, doesn't really reward this customization. If you don't enjoy it for it's own sake (which I do), or take on the few fights and DLCs that require it (Apotheosis, Future Past, and a couple of the StreetPass Paralogues), you probably aren't going to engage in the customization.
It's why I said that there are almost two different games here. The standard game, with the leveling and combat that we're familiar with from the series, and the endgame, with the all-max-stat characters and variable skill and class load outs.
I'm not sure of the best way to correct this. Perhaps allow class changes to happen more freely (as in Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon or Final Fantasy Tactics), and only use Second Seals for reverting levels? Either that, or we need more of the game built to handle the customization that the game allows, at the current pace.
The issue is that being able to easily acquire many of the skills present in this game would completely destroy it in terms of difficulty. To work around this they need to build off of lunatic+ and its broken mechanics to make them work. As in, enemies you face should also have some pretty decent skills to match about what you should have so you dont steamroll everything, but it also shouldnt be so ridiculous that every core strategy simply turns into a turtle-fest.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeThis is the "major problem" I mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
There is actually a ton of customization in the game.
But it's hard to get to. Reclassing in a game like Final Fantasy Tactics is easy, where you can change classes freely. In Fire Emblem Awakening, you need to earn levels in each class before you can shift again. So reclassing and recustomizing is slow.
Then too, the Skills are another huge part of customization. And to get them, you need to level up in the various classes. So, again, there's a huge investment to the customization.
And the game itself, especially on the lower difficulties, doesn't really reward this customization. If you don't enjoy it for it's own sake (which I do), or take on the few fights and DLCs that require it (Apotheosis, Future Past, and a couple of the StreetPass Paralogues), you probably aren't going to engage in the customization.
It's why I said that there are almost two different games here. The standard game, with the leveling and combat that we're familiar with from the series, and the endgame, with the all-max-stat characters and variable skill and class load outs.
I'm not sure of the best way to correct this. Perhaps allow class changes to happen more freely (as in Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon or Final Fantasy Tactics), and only use Second Seals for reverting levels? Either that, or we need more of the game built to handle the customization that the game allows, at the current pace.
The staple of FE, that being the permadeath makes things quite difficult to work with. In a game like Disgaea it doesnt need to be afraid of throwing insane enemies at you because of how the character system in that game works. In FE its hard to balance the enemies to be just enough of a threat to kill you if you're stupid, but not so hard as to just permanently kill off your favorite characters in a couple hits (or it turns in to an elite skeleton crew turtle-fest like Lunatic+).
I love the perma death so I dont want to see it gone, but it definitely makes balancing more of a challenge, especially when new mechanics are added to the game. Heck, one could even possibly argue that FE was better off in its more simple times. I'm not sure if I would agree with that notion, but there is definitely some validity there.
I should say that like Del, I don't let these things get in the way of my enjoyment of a very solid and polished game, I only get this deep into the critique because this is my favorite genre and I could talk for days about it.
I think we may be speaking past eachother a bit... You guys talk about mixing classes and skills to produce roles and maxing stats but most other SRPGs have that and so much more built on top of it (and from the get-go), from full equipment loadouts to an array to actives and passives that vastly exceed the 5-max slots of Awakening. I understand if you intend on playing the game for hundreds of hours you have to put a lot more thought into how you take advantage of the systems, of which I admit that marriage and pairing up does add a dynamic to. But for the standard 60-hour playthrough of a typical SRPG, it is very mechanics-lite for this day and age and I can't put it in the upper echelon of its peers.
Actually, allowing free class changing wouldn't change much in terms of abilities. Since you only get new abilities upon leveling up, each character would still only be able to get 4 abilities before hitting the max level and needing to use a Second Seal to reset. One at level 1, one at level 10, one at level 5 promoted, and one at level 15 promoted. Allowing free class changes would just allow more freedom to set up characters for particular fights (or for particular growth bonuses), and more freedom to experiment (which the current system punishes by not letting you revert changes easily).Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollHunterThe issue is that being able to easily acquire many of the skills present in this game would completely destroy it in terms of difficulty. To work around this they need to build off of lunatic+ and its broken mechanics to make them work. As in, enemies you face should also have some pretty decent skills to match about what you should have so you dont steamroll everything, but it also shouldnt be so ridiculous that every core strategy simply turns into a turtle-fest.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeThis is the "major problem" I mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
There is actually a ton of customization in the game.
But it's hard to get to. Reclassing in a game like Final Fantasy Tactics is easy, where you can change classes freely. In Fire Emblem Awakening, you need to earn levels in each class before you can shift again. So reclassing and recustomizing is slow.
Then too, the Skills are another huge part of customization. And to get them, you need to level up in the various classes. So, again, there's a huge investment to the customization.
And the game itself, especially on the lower difficulties, doesn't really reward this customization. If you don't enjoy it for it's own sake (which I do), or take on the few fights and DLCs that require it (Apotheosis, Future Past, and a couple of the StreetPass Paralogues), you probably aren't going to engage in the customization.
It's why I said that there are almost two different games here. The standard game, with the leveling and combat that we're familiar with from the series, and the endgame, with the all-max-stat characters and variable skill and class load outs.
I'm not sure of the best way to correct this. Perhaps allow class changes to happen more freely (as in Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon or Final Fantasy Tactics), and only use Second Seals for reverting levels? Either that, or we need more of the game built to handle the customization that the game allows, at the current pace.
This may make balancing more important, but I don't think it makes balance any harder than most other games. Most Tactical RPGs can kill a character if you're stupid, but very few are unfair about it.Quote:
The staple of FE, that being the permadeath makes things quite difficult to work with. In a game like Disgaea it doesnt need to be afraid of throwing insane enemies at you because of how the character system in that game works. In FE its hard to balance the enemies to be just enough of a threat to kill you if you're stupid, but not so hard as to just permanently kill off your favorite characters in a couple hits (or it turns in to an elite skeleton crew turtle-fest like Lunatic+).
No, Fire Emblem was definitely not better off in the older days. I'll point out again: Weapon Weight. We are well rid of the dark ages of the series.Quote:
I love the perma death so I dont want to see it gone, but it definitely makes balancing more of a challenge, especially when new mechanics are added to the game. Heck, one could even possibly argue that FE was better off in its more simple times. I'm not sure if I would agree with that notion, but there is definitely some validity there.
Balance is not a problem because of perma-death, balance is a problem because of the game's other new mechanics. The complete revamping to the Rescue systems, skill systems, class systems, class stats, Support bonuses... There were a lot of changes in this game, and accounting for all of them is not easy.
I must have misunderstood what you meant by free class change, but im not sure how I misunderstood. I'm on the same page as you now though, so its fine. Completely agreed.
I actually liked the idea of weapon weight, though it wasnt handled super well. Many units just had unusably low con, and thats what made it suck so much. If it had been handled better it would have perfectly fine.
I will concede on the matter of permadeath. You're right, it was the inclusion of so many new and revamped mechanics that just overwhelmed the game. I can definitely imagine that in the future these mechanics will become more cohesive.
Completely unrelated to this discussion though... I just beat lunatic/classic. Oh yes. It took 2 attempts to down the final boss, mostly because I had no forged weapons on my first attempt.
Dat 1HP http://i.imgur.com/CFLXjvu.jpg?1?7030
Oh, quick question. How do you feel about the lack of a magic triangle in this game? I kinda miss it honestly. The lack of light magic in this game made me a bit sad.
When do you guys recommend to promote or reclass units? I've been playing under the 'old FE' approach and waiting until level 20 to use the Master Seal. I haven't really used Second Seals all that much. Now I'm reading something about 'internal levels' and 'cumulative levels' that may indicate it's better to promote/reclass as soon as you can, or as soon as you learn the abilities for that class (at level 10 or 15). :sweat:
Nope. That was initially suspected, but testing and data mining have both confirmed that the only thing the game keeps track of is how many times you have changed class (though I don't remember if it tracks Master Seals for that purpose as well). So the diminishing returns for Experience don't care whether you get to level 10, or level 20, it only cares how often you reclass. Thus, unless you are at max stats for a particular class, it is better to keep going for the maximum level, as that will reduce the number of times you have to reclass, and therefore ensure you get maximum value for your Experience points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
So, lunatic+ is ridiculous.
After like 20 retires and even more resets I beat the prologue in 72 turns.
Chapter 1 was easy though, beat it in like 3 tries and less than ten turns.
Currently have a Lv.9.98 avatar with some decent stats, and chapter 2 is just ruining my night. This chapter is not going well. On lunatic its scary but consistent, here its utterly terrifying and there is no consistency. Putting this down for the night because i dont want to have nightmares about Luna+ and hawkeye.
So, I was wondering if anyone wanted to list their "ideal" match ups. Who do you pair up, and which units do you give priority to when aiming for child units? Do you go for min/maxing stats? Abilities? Or do you just pick pairs you like?
Also, if anyone would be interested in reading, reviewing, and helping improve my Awakening self-insert fanfic, send me a PM.
I don't really have many ideal matchups beside maybe Inigo!Lucina and Owain!Femorgan (though the latter was done on a previous file where Owain was a dread fighter and lets just say Grandmaster + Dreadfighter works very well as far as pair up stat bonuses are concerned).
I tend to pair up my units with people that they can fight well with, though I tend to try and get supports with as many people as possible to give me some flexibility.
As for child units... I give priority to Owain Inigo and Gerome. I would say morgan, but morgan is impossible to mess up so that hardly counts.
On my recent file Im shooting for characters to end up in their base classes, so that has a ton of bearing on my 1st generation pair ups. They need to have the skills to get the job done in their respective class.
For example, on my lunatic post-game file im currently working on I'm going Frederick!Owain to make him a solid Swordmaster. He's best as a VVW Sage or sorc... but that just doesnt fit his character to me.
I tried to optimize ending classes on my previous post-game file, and since I value aesthetics over utility I just didnt enjoy it as much and my team sort of homogenized and became boring. Sure, it was devastating... but whats the point if its not as enjoyable?
Also, why cant flavia and basilio S rank? They're such a good team and its a shame that they cant maximize their support bonuses (though the difference between A and S isnt super far off).
EDIT: Also, Lunatic+ is still deserving of my undying hatred.
The problem is, there is no solid way to implement it. The system just doesn't hold up once you take it out of the conceptual level. Faster but weaker characters (such as myrmidons) tended to be less bulky, and therefore have lower strength and constitution. This meant they couldn't handle the heavier weapons, and only attacked once per attack instead of twice, negating the very thing that was their class focus, speed. It also raised the meta game concerns of "why does this book weigh more than an iron sword" or "why is this character's constitution so high when the individual is as thin as a reed", not to mention the entire mess that Constitution made of the Rescue and Shove systems.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollHunter
It sounds like a neat concept, but I can't really see any way to implement it well. Weaker characters can't wield heavy weapons, and are therefore even weaker when compared to the stronger counterparts, and this is pretty inherent to the way the system operates.
Yep, I think things will be more polished and better integrated in the next game. There is going to be a next game, Nintendo, RIGHT?!Quote:
I will concede on the matter of permadeath. You're right, it was the inclusion of so many new and revamped mechanics that just overwhelmed the game. I can definitely imagine that in the future these mechanics will become more cohesive.
I miss Light Magic. Light Magic is frelling awesome, and Light Mages are typically among my favorite units in the games (at least, from a thematic and combat-usage state). Even without the Trinity of Magic, I miss my Light Magic. Lucius, Renault, L'Aracel, Athos, Micaiah... You guys were awesome.Quote:
Oh, quick question. How do you feel about the lack of a magic triangle in this game? I kinda miss it honestly. The lack of light magic in this game made me a bit sad.
I'm actually going to bring Light Magic back in my fanfic, as well as give a pretty decent explanation as to why there isn't any in Awakening, if anyone is interested.