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Personally I don't care if Square come out on TV and say R isn't U. There's too much stuff in the game that doesn't make sense without it, and unless they remake, or bring out a sequel completely disproving it I'll think whatever I want of the blanks.
It all makes just as much (or as little) sense whether Ultimecia is Rinoa, Fujin, Cid, or just an evil Sorceress from way off in the future with her own goals and agenda.
Err, not really Big D. Rinoa being Ultimecia explains a lot, and is hinted at directly in the game (intentionally or not).
Other people might be Ultimecia, it is possible, but Rinoa not being Ultimecia means a lot of things are left unexplained/pointless.
k this is a birth of a whole new theories.
First of all lets try the
bite bug=cid theory.
both are weak and that is a big proof
U=U
most evidence,game fits nice
hexadragon=catrhipillar theory
eh they both look weird <.<
Like I said, that was heard on FFO, which, ask Mr. Graves, I gave him the rundown: it's a ridiculous spammed rule with no humor meant to stop annoying the mods.Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
Personally I don't care if Square come out on TV and say R isn't U. There's too much stuff in the game that doesn't make sense without it, and unless they remake, or bring out a sequel completely disproving it I'll think whatever I want of the blanks.
If they ARE the same person, then things are a whole lot more pointless. Squall's feelings for Rinoa. The way everyone fought to pretect her. The very final scene of peace and happiness.Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
Err, not really Big D. Rinoa being Ultimecia explains a lot, and is hinted at directly in the game (intentionally or not).
Other people might be Ultimecia, it is possible, but Rinoa not being Ultimecia means a lot of things are left unexplained/pointless.
Squall's main concern was that Rinoa could potentially 'become' Ultimecia by turning into the world's enemy. This just challenged his idea that good and evil are only matters of opinion and not fact.
Anyway, if Square says they're not the same, then I guess that seals it. Tolkiem said his works contained no allegory; therefore any allegory that people find will be purely a construct of their own minds.
I understand all the R=U evidence, in fact I know a few points that haven't been mentioned in this thread. It's strong, but not proof. There's no reason for any disbelievers to accept it, particularly in light of Square's announcement.
The principle of Sorceress succession can explain things just as well as Rinoa and Ultimecia being exactly the same person.
Believe it, or not - it doesn't make too much difference, since Square (and presumably the writers) say it isn't so.
Wheee... We get faith from the mods that we can do this without all tearing eachothers throat out. Yay us!
Anyway, one thing I think one needs to consider is that in the FF world, things happen because the game designers want them to. If Rinoa says she wished she could make time stop, and not too long later says she expresses the hope that, should she turn bad, Squall's gunblade will pierce her heart, that indeed gives no iron cast proof within the FF world that she is. But one can wonder why the heck the designers would have put it in, if not to hint at a R=U. Yes, it is a possibility that a succesor of Rinoa is Ultimecia, but that would make a whole slew of comments rather pointless.
And to say that the end loses it's meaning? I would say au contraire' (being a pedantic ass of course, ón the contrary'is too plebian for me) Squall's entire problem isn that he refuses to get close to people for fear of losing him. With Rinoa, he has overcome that fear. He KNOWS he will lose her, in the most painful way (that's what the tear at the end means IMHO) and yet he is still close to her. He has accepted that with love comes pain, and is now prepared to take the bad with the good...yay! The lesson: If you're only gonna get close to people that you're sure off are gonna be with you forever, you'll end up alone... makes a nice ending.
In other news, I've heard from someone over the intenet (now there's a reliable source for you) that Square said the theory is true, only that person was a non-believer and assumed it was just pacifying the fans. Or perhaps Square just likes to toy with our minds, and this is all part of their plan to conquer the world, because ALL coorporations want to do that.
I think Rand Al'Tor covered a lot of what was going to say so I'll just ask a few qeuestions.
Can you explain Griever, finding the Ragnorok in time, everyone living in the orphanage without using a theory?
If you use a theory can you use one with many huge hints in the game, that doesn't require an insane coincidence in some form, and that can be looked at logically and still be taken seriously.
Even if Square said they hadn't intended R=U, why does that mean we can't see it as a likely possibility. Do Square control all of our thoughts on their games, and without putting anything in an FFVIII game that disproves it do we have to accept whatever they say about things that aren't included.
Big D, like I said dozens of times ^~, that information was from Final Fantasy Online Forums.
That... place...sucks. The mods were getting sick of the R=U threads, closing them all the time. Suddenly, not even two days later, that same mod says that all threads concerning R=U are banned because I'm annoyed with them. Oh, yeah, Square e-mailed "us" and said that the theory is false.
~.~ Dunno if I can take that to be true, ya' know?
Ah. Perhaps FFOnline got tired of endless, unresolved debates on R=U? It wouldn't be the first time the issue has been banned from somewhere. Some discussions always end the same way.
[q=PhoenixAsh]Can you explain Griever, finding the Ragnorok in time, everyone living in the orphanage without using a theory?
[/q]R=U hardly provides conclusive proof for all of these. Griever, though, is a good point.
However, let's look at a possible fact pattern.
Squall buys his Revolver gunblade, which is decorated with the winged lion icon. He also obtains some jewellry with the same icon. It's just a winged lion, nothing special, even though it's a prominent symbol that's re-used on a number of products. Now, Squall likes lions, so he decides to give a name to the winged lion on his stuff and calls it 'Griever' for no real reason. He gives his ring to Rinoa who later becomes evil. She knows she'll have to fight Squall, so she looks at the ring and decides to create a giant monster which looks a little like a winged lion, and calls it 'Griever'. This is somehow supposed to give her an advantage over Squall.
Not very plausible. As I've always maintained, evidence suggests the GF Griever always existed, and is reperesented by the symbol we know so well. Squall, because of his appreciation for lions, wears this symbol. Since Griever's so powerful, Ultimecia acquired it for her own purposes. It's highly unlikely that Griever was carried in the ring, since that ring is evidently part of the same 'set' as Squall's necklace and gunblade. Remember, lots of Christians wear a cross on a necklace, because it's the symbol of Christ who's very important to them. They feel an affinity for him and everything Christianity represents. They don't think that Christ's spirit lives in the necklace, nor do they wear it because they like everyone who was crucified. Cross jewellry exists because it's the recognised symbol of Christ and Christianity. I believe the same goes for Squall's stuff. It'd be strange for a gunblade manufacturer to brand all of its produce and accessories with a winged lion motif unless it meant something. It'd be even stranger if Squall just decided that this symbol should be named 'Griever'.
Now, here's something to consider...
When Edea was under Ultimecia's control, she had great insight into Ultimecia's thoughts, motives and intentions. Edea never once mentioned or even suggested that Ultimecia was in any way familiar to known to her or any of the others. A strange oversight, considering how important that information would have been.
Also, when Squall confronts Edea (who's being possessed by Ultimecia) she shows no glimmer of recognition or past love.
"So, you're the legendary SeeD who's destined to face me" is as personal as she gets. If Squall was that important to Ultimecia, whe'd have had a slightly more emotive reaction in my opinion.
FFVIII, like any FF, is filled with mysteries and coincidences which require conjecture or theory to explain them. PhoenixAsh mentioned the low likelihood of Squall and Rinoa finding Ragnarok in space. It was, as he said, a 'necessary coincidence', since it's known that Rinoa's powers will eventually become Ultimecia's. This is not proof of R=U, simply a necessity of the Sorceress Succession process. Besides, the game would've been pointless if they both just suffocated in space.
Surely you all know about the significance of "Fithos Lusec Wecos Vinosec" - "Succession of Witches" and "Love" anagrammed? The emphasis on "succession" is strong support for what the characters in the game say about the fact that Rinoa's powers will be passed on and eventually reach Ultimecia.
Just my opinion. I'm personally not sure about R=U. I'd rather not believe it in its strictest sense. However, it's a matter of opinion. If you believe it, then it's true for you. If you don't believe it, then that's hardly a big deal.
TheAbominatrix made a wonderful contribution to this thread:Quote:
For the last time, this is not a thread for you people to yell at eachother and try to prove this theory. Go make one to do that. There's no way to prove it inconclusively, and there's always going to be someone out there to say "Hey, that's stupid and I dont believe that because..." We answered edczxcvbnm's question. Heck, close the thread.
But if we're only goinna go after the easy debates, what's the fun is that. Whaddaya prefer. A R=U debate for the umpteenth time, or having everyone agree YET AGAIN, that Squall is Laguna's son.Quote:
Ah. Perhaps FFOnline got tired of endless, unresolved debates on R=U? It wouldn't be the first time the issue has been banned from somewhere. Some discussions always end the same way.
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Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
Can you explain Griever, finding the Ragnorok in time, everyone living in the orphanage without using a theory?
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Not very plausible and not possible either. Squall himself names the lion Griever IIRC. In another debatethe point was raised whether HE named the Lion Griever, or if he named it Griever, AFTER a GF. I find the first possibility the most probably, since if it was the second, Square WOULD have mentioned this GF before I think. Squall: "I named my ring after the mythical Guardian Force Griever, blablabla...whatever." instead of "It's a lion, known for it's strength and Pride, it's name is Griever."Quote:
Squall buys his Revolver gunblade, which is decorated with the winged lion icon. He also obtains some jewellry with the same icon. It's just a winged lion, nothing special, even though it's a prominent symbol that's re-used on a number of products. Now, Squall likes lions, so he decides to give a name to the winged lion on his stuff and calls it 'Griever' for no real reason. He gives his ring to Rinoa who later becomes evil. She knows she'll have to fight Squall, so she looks at the ring and decides to create a giant monster which looks a little like a winged lion, and calls it 'Griever'. This is somehow supposed to give her an advantage over Squall.
One, how good would Edea know thisQuote:
Now, here's something to consider...
When Edea was under Ultimecia's control, she had great insight into Ultimecia's thoughts, motives and intentions. Edea never once mentioned or even suggested that Ultimecia was in any way familiar to known to her or any of the others. A strange oversight, considering how important that information would have been.
Two: Would YOU tell them if you were in her shoes? Oh, Squall, Rinoa. That evil Sorceress from the future? That's Rinoa. You can't escape fate. Have a nice day.
Gf's, memory loss. Yes it's a tad lame, but it's been used in the game before. All she knows is that in the past there were some SeeD who travelled to the future (her present) so she goes to the past to get rid of the pests ASAP. (An interesting note is that in HER future, she would KNOW they left victorious. But she could assume that IF she would succeed in surpress time, fate would become irrelevant)Quote:
Also, when Squall confronts Edea (who's being possessed by Ultimecia) she shows no glimmer of recognition or past love.
"So, you're the legendary SeeD who's destined to face me" is as personal as she gets. If Squall was that important to Ultimecia, whe'd have had a slightly more emotive reaction in my opinion.
True, the presence of the Ragnarok needs not mean anything to me either. But plenty of things are said, done and shown that are NOT neccesary to help the plot. And don't forget that there IS no coincidense as such. Everything that happens, happens because some guy in far away Japan decided it had to be so. That can be for one reason, that can be for another reason.Quote:
FFVIII, like any FF, is filled with mysteries and coincidences which require conjecture or theory to explain them. PhoenixAsh mentioned the low likelihood of Squall and Rinoa finding Ragnarok in space. It was, as he said, a 'necessary coincidence', since it's known that Rinoa's powers will eventually become Ultimecia's. This is not proof of R=U, simply a necessity of the Sorceress Succession process. Besides, the game would've been pointless if they both just suffocated in space.
I would think the Ultimecia-Edea-Rinoa (yes, I know Edea has some powers of her own outside of Ulti's and there's Adel) is plenty of succesion to explain the beginning. Someone even gave a nice explanation that their names, together with the succesion thing are in SUPPORT of R=U. Have to dig that up again.Quote:
Surely you all know about the significance of "Fithos Lusec Wecos Vinosec" - "Succession of Witches" and "Love" anagrammed? The emphasis on "succession" is strong support for what the characters in the game say about the fact that Rinoa's powers will be passed on and eventually reach Ultimecia.
The day I find things as this a big deal is the day I should stop playing video games. However, I remain convinced the designers DID mean it this way. But as you say, to each their own.Quote:
Just my opinion. I'm personally not sure about R=U. I'd rather not believe it in its strictest sense. However, it's a matter of opinion. If you believe it, then it's true for you. If you don't believe it, then that's hardly a big deal.
I also reserve my own oppinion about abinomatrix post. Of course we should not yell at each other. But if we're only gonna do discussions were we can be absolutely sure everyone will agree at the end, this place'll get real boring REAL fast. The discussion isn't half the fun, it's all the fun, any of you suddenly become enlightened ;) , that's an extra.
Rand Al'Tor again covered a lot of what I had to say. Though I have to disagree that coincidences are unimportant, they're the entire basis of R=U, giving a more likely explanation to a series of insanely large coincidences. Oh and she went back for Ellone, not SeeDs.
Big D I'll concede to the space thing, it could mean either, though I can't remember if a Sorceress had to be near anyone to pass on powers when they died for certain, or if it just happens.
That still leaves the orphanage. Though like I said before I just came up with them, I'm the only person so far to use them for R=U that I know of so they're fairly unimportant.
Griever was never thought to have made to fight Squall. It's actually one of the most common counter examples, which I have several times pointed out makes no sense when thought through.
I had quite a discussion on TheAbominatrix's post, and explained why that was wrong too, but that's beside the point.
One: Edea knew about the rest of Ultimecia's plans, her personality and some details about her life.Quote:
Originally posted by Rand Al'Tor[q=Big D] Now, here's something to consider...
When Edea was under Ultimecia's control, she had great insight into Ultimecia's thoughts, motives and intentions. Edea never once mentioned or even suggested that Ultimecia was in any way familiar to known to her or any of the others. A strange oversight, considering how important that information would have been.
[/q]
One, how good would Edea know this
Two: Would YOU tell them if you were in her shoes? Oh, Squall, Rinoa. That evil Sorceress from the future? That's Rinoa. You can't escape fate. Have a nice day.
Two: She'd have a tough time not hinting at it, even unconsciously. She might have been reluctant to help Rinoa get to Esthar to find treatment when she was in a coma, she'd certainly have been very cautious around Rinoa later, rather than just giving a few words of advice. As for fate... the future is malleable, some believe. Prior knowledge could potentially be used to change the future and prevent a tragedy, although the subtleties of temporal mechanics are open to debate.
I don't understand if Ultimicea is Rinoa, why would she fight herself in the last battle?
I can explain finding the Ragnorak:Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
Can you explain Griever, finding the Ragnorok in time, everyone living in the orphanage without using a theory?
Square employee 1: Ok, we need some ideas for the outing in space, people.
Square employee 2: Ooh, let's have Squall and Rinoa floating through space together and about to suffocate.
Square employee 1: Good idea! And then they could come across the Ragnarok, the airship of the game.
Square employee 2: No way! That's too much of a coincidence! Do you know what the chances of them coming across the Ragnarok in space are? There's more chance of winning the lottery!
Square employee 1: What do you propose then?
Square employee 2: Well if they die it would be more realistic.
Square employee 1: So you want to kill off the two main characters of which the majority of the plot is based upon?
Square employee 2: Yes.
Square employee 1: You're fired.