Gay marriage legalised in Spain

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Originally Posted by fire_of_avalon

Bush is a Methodist, and who are any of you to call someone else an idiot for what they believe?

Concisely, talking about the stupidity of someone's religion or ethics is just as bigoted and narrowminded as someone finding homosexuality wrong. You can't fight fire with fire.

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I think Bush is an idiot, but not because of his religion... I think he's an idiot because he brings up his religious beliefs as if they have any legal bearing. I also think he's an idiot because he's cast America into an illegal war and has spent over $60,000,000 on it.

Also, speaking of the stupidity of someone ethics or religion isn't that close-minded... if you target the points that are close-minded. In example: if I were to say that the Bible is sexist and outdated, I'd be stating a flaw, which is hardly close-minded. If I were to say that Christians who are ignorant enough to use their religion as a mask for their own insecurities give their religion a bad name, I would not be being close-minded. If I were to say that religions that are selective in their salvation are no better than cults or Nazis... I would not be being close-minded.

See the pattern?

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Concisely, talking about the stupidity of someone's religion or ethics is just as bigoted and narrowminded as someone finding homosexuality wrong. You can't fight fire with fire.

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If you can't judge someone's ethics, what exactly do you judge?

I didn't say you couldn't do it. I said discounting something as stupid because it's not what one believes in is just as bigoted as people accuse the religious right of being.

I never said you shouldn't judge someone's ethics, I said discounting them as idiocy is just as wrong as someone discounting homosexuality as morally abhorrent.

There's investigation and discussion about why someone behaves the way they do, which I think is a good thing. Any opinions drawn after that fact are valid, I believe. Saying that all religion is awful, bad, narrowminded, bigoted, evil, etc. etc. without any reason behind it except for what mainstream, highly "celebrated" figures tell you it's about is wrong.

But you don't have to agree with me, I think a lot of you are just being meanies for no reason.

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he's cast America into an illegal war and has spent over $60,000,000 on it.

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It's way, way, WAY more than that, my friend.

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Originally Posted by fire_of_avalon

I didn't say you couldn't do it. I said discounting something as stupid because it's not what one believes in is just as bigoted as people accuse the religious right of being.

I never said you shouldn't judge someone's ethics, I said discounting them as idiocy is just as wrong as someone discounting homosexuality as morally abhorrent.

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I believe that murder is wrong. If someone suggested to me an ethics in which murder was right, I would discount it immediately. If someone suggested to me an ethics in which homosexuality is evil, I would discount it immediately. Some things are obviously abhorrent to any moral standard that values life.

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There's investigation and discussion about why someone behaves the way they do, which I think is a good thing. Any opinions drawn after that fact are valid, I believe. Saying that all religion is awful, bad, narrowminded, bigoted, evil, etc. etc. without any reason behind it except for what mainstream, highly "celebrated" figures tell you it's about is wrong.

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So..."people are homosexual because they devil made them that way" is a valid point in a logical discussion?

Yes - basing your opinion on the media or "celebrated figures" is wrong. By that logic, so is basing your opinion on any religion or "celebrated figures" of the church.

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But you don't have to agree with me, I think a lot of you are just being meanies for no reason.

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Probably. I haven't read most of the thread. :)

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Originally Posted by nik0tine

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he's cast America into an illegal war and has spent over $60,000,000 on it.

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It's way, way, WAY more than that, my friend.

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Wait... maybe it was $60,000,000,000

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Wait... maybe it was $60,000,000,000

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Nope, it's still more, although your getting closer. I don't know what the exact number is at the moment, but it is quite a bit more than 87 billion dollars.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

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Originally Posted by fire_of_avalon

I didn't say you couldn't do it. I said discounting something as stupid because it's not what one believes in is just as bigoted as people accuse the religious right of being.

I never said you shouldn't judge someone's ethics, I said discounting them as idiocy is just as wrong as someone discounting homosexuality as morally abhorrent.

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I believe that murder is wrong. If someone suggested to me an ethics in which murder was right, I would discount it immediately. If someone suggested to me an ethics in which homosexuality is evil, I would discount it immediately. Some things are obviously abhorrent to any moral standard that values life.

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There's investigation and discussion about why someone behaves the way they do, which I think is a good thing. Any opinions drawn after that fact are valid, I believe. Saying that all religion is awful, bad, narrowminded, bigoted, evil, etc. etc. without any reason behind it except for what mainstream, highly "celebrated" figures tell you it's about is wrong.

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So..."people are homosexual because they devil made them that way" is a valid point in a logical discussion?

Yes - basing your opinion on the media or "celebrated figures" is wrong. By that logic, so is basing your opinion on any religion or "celebrated figures" of the church.

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But you don't have to agree with me, I think a lot of you are just being meanies for no reason.

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Probably. I haven't read most of the thread. :)

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Alright, I'll concede. There are some things you CAN discount immediately as being out and out wrong based on any set of sane, logical moral standards, but that still only gives you the right to call it WRONG, it does not give anyone the right to call it stupid, because you have no idea how that person came to that conclusion.

And no, saying people are homosexual because the devil made them that way is not a valid, logical point of discussion. However, not all Christians use that argument.

And when I said celebrated figures, I was referring to both left and right extremes. You can't judge me as a Christian based on what the Pope says about Christianity, because faith runs far too deep in every individual to be summarily described by any other individual.

Basically what I'm saying is that I'm very tired of members here calling ideologies stupid and touting theirs as correct because it's insulting to both those of us with similar ideologies and those who have conflicting ideologies. I believe you can say "I think this is wrong, and here's why" and you can even say "I think this is stupid and here's why" but you can't justifiably say "This is stupid because I say so."