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Then how do you think most of the sorceresses in the past way before Adel's time died? Do you really think someone hunt them down and slew all of them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
Or maybe they lived in seclusion after they passed their powers to others? But it is said that for a sorceress to die peacefully, she must pass her power to someone. It did somehow imply that sorceress pass their powers when near death. Edea's case is an accident.
Very true. This has been realised for quite some time, and is the most commonly used argument against the successor point. Naturally, this all rests on the question of "what's the deal with sorceresses dying?", which is what we will hopefully get settled through the Ultimania.Quote:
So just because Adel searches for a succesor, if she indeed DOES that, doesn't mean old age can take out sorceresses.
I believe it is more likely(and I'm pretty sure the Ultimania backs this up) that it is extensive use of black magic(ie. using sorceress powers to do evil) which physicall deforms the sorceress, not old age.Quote:
Hmm... a thought occured to me. Perhaps Sorceresses don't grow OLDER, but 'less human' as the inherent power transforms them? After all, Adel seems only vaguely human (and pretty male) But THAT is widldly speculating.
The fact that the god in question, Hyne, also was either immortal or had very long lifespan(he takes naps which lasts for hundreds of years) is really one of the better arguments behind sorceress ling lifespan.Quote:
Just something to keep in mind. The Sorceress Power isn't just 'whee, I can use magic' it's a fraction of power from a defeated god.
Who's to say there aren't still plenty of sorceresses hiding around the world. The tutorial tells us that most sorceresses hide away, so it's impossible to tell how many really exist.Quote:
Then how do you think most of the sorceresses in the past way before Adel's time died? Do you really think someone hunt them down and slew all of them?
Of course, if they merely have extended lifespan, they'd still die of old age sooner or later anyway. Others may have been killed. Others died in accidents. Who knows? And remember that since sorceresses avoid spreading their powers too thin, the amount of sorceress in the world grows smaller with time. In other words, if a sorceress has a choice, she will give her powers to an already existing sorceress. So with time, the amount of sorceresses are reduced, even if one only dies every now and then.
This is a point of discussion; does the body force the sorceress to 'cough up' the powers before dying(ie. the body cannot let go of life while containing the powers) or is it merely that the sorceress does not wish to die while still a sorceress. The most recent information from Ultimania(still unconfirmed, this is another mystery we hope to solve soon) suggests that a sorceress wishes to pass on her powers because it's like passing on her genes, or legacy. So just like animals strive to pass on their genes, a sorceress does not wish to die without passing on her powers.Quote:
But it is said that for a sorceress to die peacefully, she must pass her power to someone. It did somehow imply that sorceress pass their powers when near death. Edea's case is an accident.
Hmm, Ultimania would of course trump what I think, but if 'passing the powers' is just something a Sorceress WANTS to do, rather than NEEDS to do, why did Edea take Ulti's powers? Edea never seemed very fond of them, and if possible wouldn't she just have preferred the power to vanish? Ulti didn't exactly look in any fighting shape, so Squall COULD have just finished her off before any kinds happened to pass by. But she stops him when he draws his sword and actually says Ultimecia NEEDS to pass the powers IIRC. Unless she actually couldn't really die without passing the powers, and Edea volunteered. The 'passing a legacy' option explains why Ulti clings on a bit longer, but doesn't explain why Edea humors her.Quote:
This is a point of discussion; does the body force the sorceress to 'cough up' the powers before dying(ie. the body cannot let go of life while containing the powers) or is it merely that the sorceress does not wish to die while still a sorceress. The most recent information from Ultimania(still unconfirmed, this is another mystery we hope to solve soon) suggests that a sorceress wishes to pass on her powers because it's like passing on her genes, or legacy. So just like animals strive to pass on their genes, a sorceress does not wish to die without passing on her powers.Quote:
But it is said that for a sorceress to die peacefully, she must pass her power to someone. It did somehow imply that sorceress pass their powers when near death. Edea's case is an accident.
My point stated is how do most of the sorceress in the past died. I didn't really mention about sorceress is near extinction or anything....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
From my views that is, having a sorceress power is a curse.Those that see it as a curse hold onto their power so as no one will suffer from the curse. (Pretty much like what Edea said "I dun want my children to become one). Some other live with the curse and want other to face the wrath of the curse(abusing the magic) and suffer with the curse.When they are near death, those that is like Edea, passed on the curse to other so as to be finally free from the curse. While the other, wanted the curse to strive on, passed her powers to others hoping the successor will continue with her menace and also to be free from the curse as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
Both have reasons only to pass their powers when they are near death. Maybe I should rephrase my previous point as "usually" pass their power when they are near death.
But it is a fact that Hyne might have an immortal body or a very long lifespan while the sorceress only had a normal mortal body and a normal lifespan before becoming one. Whether the power they received make their body immortal or give a longer lifespan is stil unknown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
Plenty of ways to die. Some embraced the evilness and became evil overlo...ladies, and went the way of all of those. A bunch of unlikely heroes with lots of megalixers and all the highest weapons that complain about how She sucks compared to that optional bosss ;) Others might end up being used in wars over the past and died there. Some of them just end up getting run over by a car or carriage. Plenty of ways to die beside 'growing old'Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknowns
Definately agree on the 'curse'thing. But it doesn't explain why 'good'sorceresses pass on their powers. If they CAN die and take the curse with them in the grave, why not do it? In Edea's case, it was by accident she passed her powers. But if she HAD died, in control of herself, would she pass on the curse to someone else unless she had no choice? So I think that the Sorcersess Power/Curse isn't gotten rid of so easily as 'death'Quote:
From my views that is, having a sorceress power is a curse.Those that see it as a curse hold onto their power so as no one will suffer from the curse. (Pretty much like what Edea said "I dun want my children to become one). Some other live with the curse and want other to face the wrath of the curse(abusing the magic) and suffer with the curse.When they are near death, those that is like Edea, passed on the curse to other so as to be finally free from the curse. While the other, wanted the curse to strive on, passed her powers to others hoping the successor will continue with her menace and also to be free from the curse as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
Both have reasons only to pass their powers when they are near death. Maybe I should rephrase my previous point as "usually" pass their power when they are near death.
True.... unknown. But I would say that 'all bets are off' and you can't just ASSUME that sorceresses keel over after normal human time without evidence that they DO, anymore than we can say they're immortal without evidence that they are. The Sorceresses' lifespan is a questionmark, and so I feel it doesn't make the R=U theory impossible.Quote:
But it is a fact that Hyne might have an immortal body or a very long lifespan while the sorceress only had a normal mortal body and a normal lifespan before becoming one. Whether the power they received make their body immortal or give a longer lifespan is stil unknown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
Oh, other note. Been digging through the script, and Dr. Odine says
Of course... that's two Sorceresses that Odine KNOWS off. So it doesn't really have to prove anything, but I'd bring it up as foood for thought. Also Seifer:Quote:
In order for Ultimecia to exist in this time, she must take over
ze body of a sorceress from ze present. But ze machine must have a
limit. Ultimecia probably needs to go back further in time to achieve
time compression. Only Ellone can take her back further into ze past.
Zat iz why she iz desperately seeking her. We must take advantage of
Ellone's power. There are 2 sorceresses in our time. Sorceress Rinoa
and Sorceress Adel.
He COULD mean 'the two sorceresses' or he could mean more importantly, and it SEEMS to be important 'all the sorceresses as one'Quote:
Seifer: Rinoa and Adel! The sorceresses as one! Watch closely, Squall!
Still, if there ARE other sorceresses, they're most likely irrelevant.
Yup, there is why I said most of the sorceress may have died in a natural way but some other died in an unnatural way. But if old age can't claim a sorceress, do you really think the rates of an accident happening to a sorceress is so frequently? So all sorceress died from an unnatural death?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
I will said it is already enough. Enough in a sense that they had lived with the curse for their whole life, and if they do have extended life span, means worse. And it is only a peaceful death that they wanted, why can't they have it? Taking the curse along with them to the other world mean them will be living with the curse for eternity. They had lived with the curse for a life time, why can't they have peace afterlife? This is like a normal humans having regrets before death and by fufilling the regrets let him die in peace. It is not selfish to give up the curse nor noble to take it with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
But whether they NEED or WANT to pass their power is still unknown.
That is why I am curious on whether they have extended life span after receiving Hyne's power. Because I have no evidence whether they do or not do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
But most of the stuff we are discussing here doens't have evidence or anything, that's why I said earlier on there won't be a good conclusion.....
They did merge as one didn't they? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
Anyway, it could mean Adel to receive Rinoa's sorceress power like how Rinoa is going to receive Adel's power after Squall and CO bump her off.
Yeah... either that or even Sorceresses drop dead after, say, 600 years? Not that big a stretch. And 'unnatural deaths' can be nice and broad. Sorceresses don't age, but they DO get sick for example. Or get a heart attack. (their heart doesn't age but... hey, a sorceress could be shocked.... or just have bad eating habits) Or they can be surprised by a boar if they decided to go live in a hut in the woods. Plenty of them might have gone above the human life expectancy but... well... every day you roll the dice thousands of times, and over a long enough time, you're gonna roll snake's eyes... even if it means getting hit by lightning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknowns
Not to mention. Just imagine you have a great and awesome power would you just sit and be quiet and work a 9-5 job or sit in a hut in the forest? If you're evil, you're gonna try to rule people, if nyou're good you're going to try to help people, most likely using your power to stop evil people. Which means in either case you'll fight. And if you fight, you risk dying. Add that it's not unlikely that there's the occasional bout of Sorceress-Phobia and a Sorceress or two ends up getting lynched and... well... yeah, plenty of ways for Sorceresses to die without old age.
Quote:
I will said it is already enough. Enough in a sense that they had lived with the curse for their whole life, and if they do have extended life span, means worse. And it is only a peaceful death that they wanted, why can't they have it? Taking the curse along with them to the other world mean them will be living with the curse for eternity. They had lived with the curse for a life time, why can't they have peace afterlife? This is like a normal humans having regrets before death and by fufilling the regrets let him die in peace. It is not selfish to give up the curse nor noble to take it with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand AlTor
But whether they NEED or WANT to pass their power is still unknown.
Aaaah, good point. I didn't even think of Afterlife. (And since the gang DID run into a ghost, it's pretty likely there IS some kind of afterlife. In that case... yeah, even the most saintly of people would probably let someone else deal with the thing for a bit. I was thinking 'I die, I'm rid of it' thing. Still.... assuming you CAN die with sorceress power, some of them must have done so. I mean, either people would deliberately keep you away from girls/women, or you'd just end up dying somewhere alone. Of course, might be SOME of the Sorceress power has ended up 'lost' (or taken as a burden by some unlucky soul)
As you said, we don't really know. I like the idea of A sorceress just not dying but staying in absolute powerless and miserable condition till she can 'dump'. Maybe we'll get an answer soon.
Yeah... it could go either way. But as an R=U defender 'it could go either way' means it's not evidence AGAINST R=U. (it's not evidence IN FAVOR either)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
Yeah, again, this could mean either. And maybe not entirely relevant. Just something I ran into and said 'hey, food for thought'Quote:
They did merge as one didn't they? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
Anyway, it could mean Adel to receive Rinoa's sorceress power like how Rinoa is going to receive Adel's power after Squall and CO bump her off.
Maybe now dying of illness an old age had been seen as a natural way of dying? Since most people died from illness during old age.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
But let's look at this other way, if sorceress dun age, mean their body immune system is alway her prime?(since most of the sorceress we see in the game aren't old) or magic made her immune to illness?
So if her body is at her prime and her immune system shouldn't be so vulnerable to certain life threatening illness unlike people that have a certain age.
The chances of a youngster contacting diseases that can cause death like cancer..etc is pretty low compare to the elderly. But even if they do, it will usually be a small portion of them unless it is some infectious diseases like HIV or a plague or something. But all this have only small chances of happening.
And the chances of those accidents you mentioned happening is kinda small and when the victim apply to a sorceress make the chances even smaller.
Well, that is what Edea do. She did help others but without the use of her magic powers until the Ultimecia's incident that is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
Maybe you should see my pharse "taking in the other world" as an example. Since I pointed out about having regrets(those that really, really matters) before you die will result in a non peaceful death. So no matter where you go or what you become of you after death, the regrets will alway be a burden or something you cannot get rid of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
Could be true. Since it apply only to die peacefully and not be able to die.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
But maybe a person's final goal in life no matter who the person is or what the person do, the person will seek to have a peaceful death. You will usually want to wrap out unfinished business before you leave this world. But even if you are died from an accident or killed by others, you will still desperately use your last breath to finish something that had burdened you for life. Like Ultimecia' case, even she is done for, she still desperately wanted to finish her unfinished business.
But there will be really a lot of sorceress hiding in this world from the age of Hyne to Squall's time since they might not be able to die in a natural way. But like the tutorial said, their numbers is unknown. So who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
Well, I am actually more interested to know the truth and remain neutral until the truth is out. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
True... but even people at their prime die of illnesses. And don't forget, if we assume that the world of FF VIII went through history just like earth, quite a BIG part of history had LOW life expectancy, no modern medicine, no sanitation, etc. etc. So even while 'pepretually young' with an excellent immune system, you still can catch your death from disease relatively easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknowns
There's bandits, rampaging soldiers, natural disasters. of course, a Sorceress COULD use her power to resist that, but then she has the problem that she'll be sought as a weapon.
And then of course, there's just Sorceresses that, after the fifth century, just plain old had ENOUGH of life.
Well, that is what Edea do. She did help others but without the use of her magic powers until the Ultimecia's incident that is.[/quote]Quote:
[QUOTE = Rand Al'Tor]Not to mention. Just imagine you have a great and awesome power would you just sit and be quiet and work a 9-5 job or sit in a hut in the forest? If you're evil, you're gonna try to rule people, if nyou're good you're going to try to help people, most likely using your power to stop evil people. Which means in either case you'll fight. And if you fight, you risk dying. Add that it's not unlikely that there's the occasional bout of Sorceress-Phobia and a Sorceress or two ends up getting lynched and... well... yeah, plenty of ways for Sorceresses to die without old age.
Edea did. She could probably have reached three hunderd or something. But even if she had spend her timetaking care of children of an oprhanage, never using her powers no matter what horrors happened, sooner or later laws of probability are going to nail you.
Yeah, I think I see what you mean. It IS a possibility, and I like the image, but I also like the one of the battered and ruined body straining and screaming in agony, the soul itself trying to get out of the body that became a prison rather than a home, but Hyne's curse keeping everything going, not allowing death before it is granted its next victim. That's kinda the image I got from Ultimecia. Which would explain why Edea took pity on her. Then again, Edea might feel even Ultimecia doesn't deserve getting stuck with the curse for all eternity.Quote:
Maybe you should see my pharse "taking in the other world" as an example. Since I pointed out about having regrets(those that really, really matters) before you die will result in a non peaceful death. So no matter where you go or what you become of you after death, the regrets will alway be a burden or something you cannot get rid of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
Yep, but sometimes 'wanting desperately'just isn't enough. 'Magically forced to' on the other hand... might just mean that if you have to be in constant dying agony for a hunderd years before you find a suitable replacement, you WILL pass on the power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
Might be.... remember. There are less and less sorceresses over time, as you can't 'divide' the Power but you can 'merge' them. Good Sorceresses would try to absord the Sorceress power of other dying sorceresses to keep others'safe, while evil Sorceresses would hunt other Sorceresses to acquire more power (Highlander anyone?) (Also, yet ANOTHER cause of death for Sorceresses. Hunted down by other Sorceresses. Plenty of 'immortals' die in Highlander, no?) It is POSSIBLE there are others.... but also possible they're near extinction. (And as powerful as Ulti is, it's not that hard to believe she got 'the whole set'. Any that lived after Squall's age might have been hunted down by Ulti)Quote:
But there will be really a lot of sorceress hiding in this world from the age of Hyne to Squall's time since they might not be able to die in a natural way. But like the tutorial said, their numbers is unknown. So who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
Heheh... A good attitiude, but I allow myself some luxuries for things like games ;) So I'm rooting for 'they DO grow very old'Quote:
Well, I am actually more interested to know the truth and remain neutral until the truth is out. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
So Ultimicia could actually be a colection of all these sorcerecess which could not pass on their power... (at least originaly)
If Ultimicia is the only Sorceress in her time, and Rinoa the only known one in hers, chances are that Rinoa's powers make up a lot of Ultimicia's.
Well, most youngsters that died from illness are mainly those that caught infectious diseases or a plague in the past. But plague dun happen often. And also in the past, it is mostly elderly or those weak ones that become victims of illness and it is still usually those that die from it. And like I stated before, who know if their magic make them immune to those illness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
And also as I mentioned the before, the chances of a random young person catching a diseases is not quite big but a sorceress catching the diseases make the chances smaller. Since out of 100 people, among them, how many sorceress will there be?
It is pretty true that Edea will be spending the rest of her time taking care of those children until the Ultimecia's incident. Maybe this is the horror you are talking about. But like many sorceress, she hide her power and live in seclusion, so I doubt people will just go look for her and kill her just for the sake of killing her. Then what of those sorceress living in hiding? Must they go use their powers to do something good or bad to survive in the world?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
Not really, if they can't die without passing on their powers, then how do those sorceress you fought during time compression die? True if Rinoa absorbed them. But what if Rinoa isn't in the party when you fight them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
No? When you are on a verge of death, just look for a suitable replacement or someone that is willing to be the replacement and pass on to the replacement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
But I reckon they will still die regardless of this but just might not be able to rest in peace.
But how will the good sorceress know when or where is there a dying sorceress since everyone is hiding themselves from the world. The chances are very slim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
You mean they hunt each other down to absorb each other powers? I dun think they will deliberately do it but might do it if they have a chance. Remember most sorceress live in hiding how much of a trouble to find them all. So why didn't Adel go look for other sorceress to absorb their power to turn the tables around after the first sorceress war ended? She can absorb all their powers and took on the Galbadian on her own.Instead she go look for a successor instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
If Adel is not possessed by Ultimecia at the point of the successor searching events, it is possible that she is also interested in using Time Compression to absorb all the other sorceress powers after Odine told her of his foundings.
Adel absorbed Rinoa cause she is just in front of her. But seeking each other out will take centuries since the good sorceress will know the evil sorceress will be after her and constantly be on the run or go into hiding.
Ultimecia tried to get the whole set by using time compression which will absorb all sorceress' power into one instead of seeking them out one by one. If she had the whole set, she is just another or might be a "Hyne" which will question why will she use time compression?
See Below:
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/7...ecia8kb.th.png
I personally feel like they do grow old but I am not rooting for anything. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor
There is a time in the game which Rinoa said that her power will sooner or later be passed on the Ultimecia. I believe it is in the Ragnarok.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePheonix
A few things I will point out:
1) Edea says she got her first set of powers at 5. This implies that she has aged since she was a child. Although it's possible that a sorceress might grow to adulthood and then stop aging, there's not really anything supporting that claim. So I'd say the most likely thing is that if a sorceress has a different lifespan, it's merely extended, not infinite.
2) We don't know how many sorceress there were to begin with(ie. how many Hyne gave his powers too). We also do not know how long ago it was since this happened. But odds are that he didn't split his powers into hundreds of fragments, and odds are that it happened a very long time ago.
Based on this, the problem of a sorceress not dying while in hiding and all that is solved, simply because over long enough time, they will die eventually anyway. Sure, in the course of 1 year, chances that a sorceress might catch a disease and die are slim, but over two thousand years or so, the chances are significantly larger.
3) Sorceresses may not always have been so deep in hiding as they are in FF8s era. As such, sorceresses might still have known about eachother so they could give eachother their powers. As before, given enough time, the amount of sorceresses would be reduced.
4) Ultimecia could never have gotten all the sorceress powers without time compression. The only other way is to hunt them all down and kill them, but since Junction Machine Ellone is limited, she could only get the powers of the sorceresses Edea, Adel, Rinoa and any other sorceress between them and her own time. Any sorceress before that, and in Ultimecias future, she would not be able to get.
So even though Ultimecia may have hunted down and killed the sorceress of her time, she still has every reason to use TC.
NOTE: If Odine is correct that Ultimecia will really be the only sorceress of her time, then there will be no sorceresses after Ultimecia. Naturally though, Ultimecia does not know this, so she still has every reason to compress time for any future powers.
5) FYI, the japanese FF8 has Edea saying "A sorceress cannot die while she has her powers", which seems to make it straight forward, but analysed in it's context, it still seems like the meaning is similar to the one in the english version.
But as I said, this is unsolved until the Ultimania gets here.
Not quite. But if it is meant that a sorceress grew old and caught an disease and die, then I must agree to that. But if a sorceress stay in her prime and catch a life threatening disease, it is then most likely to be a plague or something but the chances which I think is still pretty low. Considering there is still a handful a sorceress and if all them in their prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
I dun really see it this way. Those that are not hiding usually will keep their identities secret or make a big ruckus like Adel and Edea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
I dun really think they will reveal their identities to just anybody and if they happen to, what are the chances that the person that heard the news is also a sorceress.
Like what was stated before, evil sorceress might hunt good sorceress for their powers, so it made mutual trust among them questionable.
And if sorceress do get together, then the role of a knight might not play such a big role. Since sorceress themselves will be able to form a group or such to protect themselves and support each other.
One of the reason of rogue sorceress is that suffer loneliness and condemnation from the world without anyone to accept her. And also, what are the chances that the sorceress that give Edea's her power might know other sorceress. Then why didn't she give her power to her sorceress' friend?
Or maybe there is something like the black mage village like in FF IX but in this case, then there is this place where sorceress get together?
The main reason is that she wanted to gain every possible sorceress' power throughout history and the future. So if she is the "whole set" like mentioned, then that will defeat the purpose of time compression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
Then I must admit to the fact that a sorceress can't die unless her powers is passed on. So regarding the sorceress that was fought in Time compression, I reckon that they passed to Rinoa or they just got absorbed into time? Or their powers got absorbed by Ultimecia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
Edea could easily look like she's in her thirties, she doesn't have to be the same age as Cid. Wait, does it say somewhere that she's 35? Or does my memory make up stuff?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo-Nercy
Rinoa? Young for her age? She's seventeen, I think she looks pretty seventeen-ish. Maybe older.
And we don't know exactly how old Ultimecia is, do we? :)