the ira

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Originally Posted by War Angel

I could, possibly. However, it'd be much easier to find many armed organisations that do not TARGET civilians. And yes, planting bombs in commercial centres and what-not is considered targeting civilians targets. A stray shell from a cannon isn't.

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Please find me one, I'd love to know. I'm not talking about 'stray cannon shell', what is this? The Napoleonic Wars? I'm talking evaluating an attck, knowing civilians will die & going ahead with that attack for the 'greater good' or at worst, deliberately attacking civilians in a concentrated & deliberate effort. Go on, it'll be your little quest for the weekend, prepare to bck up your answers with fact or I will find the BS and call you on it with fact.

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Originally Posted by War Angel

Oh, but I always do. And no, I wouldn't want to get into THAT issue with someone that appearently supports terrorism.

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Excuse me? Lets not start making judgment calls on people, you don't know me & know little of what you label terrorism either. You can demonise what you like but just so you know, Israel's hands are bloodstained too. I know you hold on to this sleep-easy illusion that your country & it's forces are a pillar or good light that are totally blameless in this terrible war against terrorist demon-like halfbreeds. Sadly the only one you are fooling is yourself. People who have the ability to read and aren't afraid to utilise that ability know a bit more. You have this ability to post on a topic, ignore all points made by anyone killing your argument, repeat your blinkered argument with quotes you can make snide comments & repeat to fade. That hasn't gone overlooked either. Terrorist is just a word, it doesn't explain anything except tell people the organisation is not government run or official. Guerrilla's, Freedom Fighters, Partisans etc etc, each word explains the same label & the choice of word very much depends on the views of the brain behind them.
You say I support terrorism, I could stoop low and say you support a blood thursty, sanctimonious, murdering satellite army of the United States...but I don't.

Don't label me, or us, or even the Protestant population, you don't know enough, nor are you willing to learn enough. The bubble you call home just might pop.

*ignores all personal attacks on his country and people that have zero relevance to this discussion*

Right, now.

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Terrorist is just a word, it doesn't explain anything except tell people the organisation is not government run or official. Guerrilla's, Freedom Fighters, Partisans etc etc, each word explains the same label & the choice of word very much depends on the views of the brain behind them.

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Again, wrong. Except 'freedom fighters', these aren't buzz-words. They have a distinct meaning. A guerilla force is a non-governmental force that fights against an organised army to achieve certain goals, almost always political (such as independence). A terrorist organisation often strives for the same goals, but tries to achieve them in different methods - a terrorist organisation targets and hits civilians, in order to create pressure on the opposing government and\or people. The IRA does that, as far as I know (care to prove me wrong on this?).

I never attacked anyone, I merely stated what I could have said if i stooped as low as you in your 'you support terrorists' statement. Don't attack and then play the victim when someone counters with a stronger attack.

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Originally Posted by War Angel

Again, wrong. Except 'freedom fighters', these aren't buzz-words. They have a distinct meaning. A guerilla force is a non-governmental force that fights against an organised army to achieve certain goals, almost always political (such as independence). A terrorist organisation often strives for the same goals, but tries to achieve them in different methods - a terrorist organisation targets and hits civilians, in order to create pressure on the opposing government and\or people. The IRA does that, as far as I know (care to prove me wrong on this?).

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Certainly, give me an example where the IRA deliberately targeted civilians in an effort to simply kill civilians, i'm not ignorant enough to believe it could never have happened so give me one & I'll look into it. Don't ignore my quest either, you are missing my whole point by doing so. Every military organisation, legal or illegal has killed civilians. I'm not talking about accidental death or such. I'm talking either a calculated collateral or direct, deliberate attacks. Again, don'tm ignore this point, you seem to be doing so, so I've reitterated it.

Lastly, your overtly simplistic view on Terrorism & Gurrillas is complwtely off centre and wrong. Terrorist & Guerrilla Warfare stretch way beyond the spheres of Freedom Fighting alone. There are many reasons for both. There are Guerrillas in Colombia, Indonesia, Chile etc who's aim is drug related, political or even tribal. You cannot simplify those words to mere 'Freedom Fighters'. Lastly Al Queda, they are not freedom fighters, the PLO were, they aren't.

Don't say I'm wrong, please, I back up every word I say, you generalise in obne sentence answers explaining nothing about fact. Everything you say is mere un-learned view point, care to prove me wrong on that?

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give me an example where the IRA deliberately targeted civilians in an effort to simply kill civilians,

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA

"IRA was responsible for the deaths of 1,706 people... This figure represents 48.4 percent of the total fatalities in the conflict. 497 of the casualties were civilians, 638 of the casulaties were from the British army"

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/chronmaj.htm

This here is a list of major violent acts during some 30 years of struggle. It lists quite a few killings by many organisations, including the IRA. Plantings bombs in hotels, restaurants or in the middle of a street is what I'd consider the targeting of civilian targets.

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I merely stated what I could have said if i stooped as low as you in your 'you support terrorists' statement.

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I don't have links to virtual memorials for members of a terrorist organisation in my signature.

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Terrorist & Guerrilla Warfare stretch way beyond the spheres of Freedom Fighting alone.

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I didn't say it didn't. However, the fact remains 'terrorism' stands for the targeting of civilians, while 'guerilla' stands for the targeting of military targets, both by un-governed organisations\forces. This is all there is to it, really.

The IRA fights for the freedom of Northern Ireland from the British occupation. This is fine. However, the IRA's methods are not legitimate (or were not legitimate, since it's no longer active, hopefully). Had it only killed British soldiers, even by the thousands, it'd be fine and legitimate, since they are soldiers and death is part of their work. Civilians shouldn't die because of politics.

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Originally Posted by eestlinc

if you live in Ireland you should accept Irish rule.

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They don't they live in Ulster.

i listed a whole list of attacks the ira committed which targetted civillians. giving warnings does not repel guilt. it's not an excuse. 207 people in manchester were injured even though a warning was given.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

why was commerce a legitimate target anyway? why was blowing up harrods acceptable? the canary wharf bomb? manchester? it doesn't seem a correct target.

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The whole point of these very small organizations is to create a sense of ear to accomplish there goals. Which they are pretty much being successful in the fact that we all had to change our daily lives due to these attacks.

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Originally Posted by War Angel

"IRA was responsible for the deaths of 1,706 people... This figure represents 48.4 percent of the total fatalities in the conflict. 497 of the casualties were civilians, 638 of the casulaties were from the British army"

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Firstly that is mere statistics on Wikipedia (a dubious source at best, as anyone with any slant can basically write what they want). It's hard to argue against unlabeled numbers now isn't it. Numbers can fool, anyone who knows politics will tell you this. Let's just say those numbers are correct. Does it tell you how many of the 497 were Loyalist Terrorists? IRA killed a large number of them. Then there's the Informers & Supergrasses. This undoubtedly leaves a number of innocent people called 'collateral' or 'murder victims' pending on who did it. Let me say most lives that were lost here were a tragedy, loses on both sides. But be aware, both sides lost innocents, by freedom fighters, terrorists, British Army...It was a war and both sides lost counts of people. Personally I've lost people close to me, the fact you overlook the other side's crimes because they are not labeled 'terrorists' is quite mad indeed.

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Originally Posted by War Angel

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/chronmaj.htm

This here is a list of major violent acts during some 30 years of struggle. It lists quite a few killings by many organisations, including the IRA. Plantings bombs in hotels, restaurants or in the middle of a street is what I'd consider the targeting of civilian targets.

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Here we have a list. Notice the very first entry, the spark. Tell me, who was it targeting innocent civilians? (British Army killed 13, IRA 1) Then the second, who was it? You got it, the Loyalists, 15 Catholics dead, then the explosion of the third, the straw that broke the camels back, if you will.
Sunday 30 January 1972
‘Bloody Sunday’: 14 Catholic civilians were killed at a civil rights march in Derry. They were shot by members of the British Army.

Bloody Friday. Then we have the retaliation by the fledgling IRA. This knee jerk, whilst being retaliatory, was indeed an attack where collateral was not worried about. They were, though, targeting British Soldiers (2 died). these soldiers didn't just happen to be walking by & the IRA struck a fluke. Each bomb had warning which were ignored as at that time this was all new.

Then we have a the IRA killing British soldiers & after that Friday 17 May 1974. Suspected collusion with RUC & Army, the Loyalists kill 20 in Dublin then in Monaghan. You need to live & know the Loyalists here understand why everyone suspected, and now know infact, there was collusion. They were not bomb makers by their own admission. Had not the materials to or the know how. Members of the Ulster Defence Regiment were well known to be Loyalists aswell (the UDR was absorbed by the Royal Irish Regiment in the 80s). Even as lately as today RIR soldiers are STILL Loyalist members. In the Sunday World newspaper stated one of the RIR soldiers on uty at Garnerville to keep the UVF & LVF factions apart was a well known LVF member. This Rewgiments is finally being disbanded but that leaves us with the problem of thousands of ex soldiers who double as Loyalist Terrorists on the streets unemployed. Trained by the British Army to kill & they won't be happy.

I could go on to be honest but any later and it's like reading my childhood. Every bomb had a coded warning, they were not always adhered to. This does not excuse it, but what excuses Bloody Sunday? Or the 13 on Monday 9th? What excuses the Dresden Bombings? Or the Israeli Gunships wiping out 4 blocks of housing for one Hamas leader? Or their killing of Palestinians throwing stones? Even some of America's conducts during WWII, Vietnam, Iraq. It is war and it happens in war. It always has happened. While the IRA didn't always worry a great deal about collateral, civilians were not the target of the bomb. You did a 5 minute google search and came up with what you thought suited your argument the most. Now try google searching & this time read the whole thing, from various view points. Only then will you understand just what exploded here in the early 1970s.

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Originally Posted by gokufusionss1

They don't they live in Ulster.

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That's the funniest thing I've witnessed thus far, tell me you were joking.

Ireland is made up of 4 provences, historial provences, Ulster, Munster, Connacht & Leinster. In Ulster there are 9 counties, 6 of which are under British Occupation, Antrim, Down, Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry & Armagh, 3 are free, Cavan, Donegal & Monaghan. Just what on earth was that half brained statement supposed to accomplish other than prove that despite your obvious strong views, you know little to nothing of the situation? That's summed up the opposition of my points in this thread.

is informing reason to be killed?

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

is informing reason to be killed?

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It was enough during WWII for the Allies, turning on your comrades for no other reason other than to save your own skin from prison is low. Low enough to kill? I cannot answer that, I can say it's an unsavory part of war that happens all the time.

but is to inform a crime or somthing to be praised? to risk your own skin to try and hinder an illegal organisation. is that a bad thing? should these people not be listed with the "innocents"?

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

but is to inform a crime or somthing to be praised? to risk your own skin to try and hinder an illegal organisation. is that a bad thing? should these people not be listed with the "innocents"?

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Um, why? They are far from innocents. Most were members of the IRA who got caught & flipped. Whether it's a crime or an act of heroism very much depends on which side of the fence you are on. Illegal or not, IRA were a military organisation. If someone flipped & gave information which cost volunteer lives are gutter rats. Same goes for agents who flip for 'legal' armies. Treachery is treachery in any language. Because an organisation is deemed illegal, it doesn't make the cause bad. The term & staus of Illegal is given by the people writing the law, who in turn may have unpure interests.

Cuchulainn has basically said almost everything I have to say aswell to be honest, only in better wording.

Yes, Informers, no matter where they come from must be dealt with. It's not as if they didn't know what would happen if they where to be caught. :rolleyes2

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They don't they live in Ulster.

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Do me a favour and do some deep research into the Irish history and culture before the British invasion. Ulster has been a part of my history and my culture and language for as long as the English people have existed, :mad2: it's Irish, on an Irish island, on Irish soil, and no treaty, or document will change it. Modern laws won't change history. I've lived in Ulster all my life and I see it how it is, not how the BBC or ITV, or Sky news, or CNN, or the newspapers tells it.

Even the majority of the Protestant people want thier own government, learn the situation please or don't give a say at all.