Ok i would like to say that i never accused any one of being racists, Im just telling you guys to watch your remarks, saying things like "muslim led countries cant be trusted" is racists, and can offened, im just warning you guys.
second of all, where do i support actions that will lead to killing? And if you do find one, tell me how it leads to killing. Killing is never a FING answer, i found that to be a very harsh personal attack
I never like argueing on forums as post tend to be read differently there tends to be alot of subtext that is lost simply due to tone of voice.
Quote:
Why elsewhere in the world? Because some people don't like it? Then the Jews should give up their homeland, their dream for living there in their own state once more? Beside, what place IS there in this world that would 'accept' the Jews? None.
Why wouldnt the rest of the world accept them i dont see why every different religion or peoples cant live together, why does everyone need to be Xenophobic, why clutter the world with more nations, we should be trying to unite each other not fight each other, i FING hate the human condition.
Quote:
1929, more than 400 Jews were butchered by neighbouring Arabs. Only 400, you might say... but that was about 1/12 of the entire population, back then. That's like 25 million Americans killed, right now. Jews CANNOT live in Israel, or anywhere else, without the support of their nation.
I would never say a thing like only 400, once again i personally felt that the comment "Only 400 you might say" was a stab at me. and you say anywhere else, although as i recall Jews have been able to live here with out being threatened to the same degree.
Quote:
Who exactly helped the re-erection of the State of Israel? No-one. Nobdoy fought for the Jews. People came from extermination and concentration camps, weighing a third of their preffered weight, were given rifles - and off to fight the War for Independence. I heard many of them died mere hours afterwards, while their rifles were still locked.
Well since after WW1 it was british territory. And western countries have allied with Isreal on more than several occasions. And what was this "War of Independence" against?
Quote:
No State of Israel - no future for the Jews. How many country-less people do you know that live happily in this world? The Kurds, maybe? How about homeless tribes in Africa? Hell, the Jews were butchered by the millions befroe the re-forming of their nation in 1948! The Holocaust, you know, nasty business. No-body would DARE attempt genocide on a people with a country behind them - and those poor souls would always have somewhere to run off to. Jews had no-where to go after 1938.
Why cant Jewish people live outside of a mainly Jewish state? Is the rest of the world that scared that they have to keep these people seperated from them? Is every one that unforgiving that they would cast a blind eye to those in need? Personally it doesnt matter if these people have thier own country but whether there are compasionate people there who can give them aid when needed. Personally i never got the whole idea behind Genocide, i cant comprehend it why would people kill because of a persons ethnic/religious background?
Quote:
Nobody freaking gave the land! People fought and died for it! More than six millions, in-fact. Five subsequent wars, countless terrorist acts, dozens of thousands dead.... nobody gave the land. It was hard-earned by blood and valour. Also, what do you mean by 'someone else's land'? Are you insinuating something, something that might shed light on your agenda, mm?
Well that makes the whole concept of Isreal worse doesnt it, its a nation state that was born from blood, those people would have been spared if the rest of the world gave them a home, Anyways it was the british who split palestine up. Personally as much as i feel for those who gave thier blood, there are so many better solutions than fighting.
Quote:
Do tell me more of these rogue 'Israeli volunteers' who go about defying orders of the highest command, killing 'innocent targets'.
They dont kill innocents but when you are fighting constantly people are caught in the cross fire. Im not saying it was on purpose, but its still the tragic death of an innocent bystander for no reason. War smurfing sucks.
Quote:
Some would say God did, I say the Jews did it themselves. But we're talking ancient history here.
God didnt Tell the Jews to live in one place, he didnt tell any one to live anywhere, If you bring god into the discussion then god made people and gave them the world to live, so let people LIVE in the world. when we seperate each other thats when the hate begins.
Quote:
I'd say that as the Crade of Humanity, the Middle East has always been very much distablised. The re-forming of Israel was, if anything, a democratic and stablising factor.
Its the cradle of civilization, and how can you say the reforming of Isreal is a stablising factor when you have all these terrorist cells, and suicide bombings happening all the time.
Quote:
Don't try to bend it, then. Israel stands firm, with one of the most powerful armies in the world, and a the firmest determination you could find in human minds. That's really enough. Face it as a fact - Israel has always been there, and always will be, as long as there are Jews willing to live there and protect it.
Why cant they just live there and share it, instead of hoarding it and defending it with tooth and nail. You cant have a Culturaly significant place such as the holy land and just give it to one group of people, its unfair no matter a the birth right of those people (And the past has shown us what birth right can do remember all those crazy kings and emperors, maybe se should try something other than its yours because your father had it.)
Quote:
Was the border closed to everbody except who was initially placed there? I doubt it. It makes much more sense that the border was closed as a security measure after Israel started getting attacked.
it was closed for i think about 30 years.
Quote:
Let me let you in on something. Change is not always progress. Just because they're trying to change things doesn't mean they're progressive -- the way they're going, it's quite the opposite, actually.
would you care to elaborate, as i thought that alternative fuels and greater rights and freedoms was progressive?
Quote:
Nobody said it was Christian. The point was that Islam forcefully took over.
Some one mentioned that the crusades were a re-taking. anyways the holyland was persian as well i forgot to mention that, so the Islamic took it from the Persains whos religion at the time was Zoraster.
Quote:
Some of both, but there was a reason it was ignored. Until Germany attacked another country, it was Germany's problem to deal with. Remember, there wasn't really any UN to step in and deal with it (like they would have anyway, hah), and the League of Nations really wasn't prepared to handle such an issue.
Thats sad millions slaughtered because of cowardice. its called initiative.
Quote:
There would still be a Jewish section of Palestine, which was created after WWI, if my memory serves me correctly. In the early 1920s, "Palestine" was split into two parts, which would become Israel and Jordan. (War Angel, I'm sure you know more than I do about this, please correct me if I'm wrong.) ... ... ... You know what, nevermind, just look here for the history behind it.
Acctually that site just helped my argument more, why coulnt they have keeped the whole country palestine, instead of splitting it up, it was mentioned that both Muslims and Jews were living together. And most of the culturally significant areas are in Isreal...
Quote:
Right, because we just carpet-bomb Islamic countries at random, right?
Im not saying you do that, but there are some people who think that thats the only way, there was chef at my work who wanted nothing except to "NUKE THE MOTHERsmurfERS SKY HIGH" needless to say that statement scared the [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] out of me. Those people are just like us, they are just people living thier own lives.
Quote:
Their presence alone initiates conflict, because the Muslims around there can't stand Jews having their own territory. And don't tell me you honestly believe, with no credible sources, that Israelis actually target innocent civilians in preemptive attacks? Please, please, tell me you're not serious. Or at least try to back up this outrageous claim. (And no, Al-Jezeera doesn't count as a credible source.)
I never said they target innocent civilians, but that Innocent civilians become casualties in these times of hate, the muslims dont hate the jews they hate how they cant visit thier own holy sites. And there are no credible sources, CNN, BBC, AL-Jezeera, all of them are just glorified propaganda, and dont be a fool and put all your faith in any of these news sources.
Quote:
Was it our fault the surrounding Muslims won't accept their presence? Are you going to blame us (well, probably Britain, really) because of that? We didn't surround them with anything, we put them back in their homeland. Their enemies surrounded them by themselves.
You say that we put them back in thier homeland, but if thier homeland was occupied by someone else, and that putting the jews back into thier homeland caused a rift between that someone else and the jews, then wouldnt it be our fault. as it would of never of happened with out us?
Quote:
Would they rather be somewhere other than their historical homeland and the area the majority of their religion centers around? It's where they belong, it's their homeland. They shouldn't be anywhere else, they should be able to live peacefully where they are.
Maybe someplace where they dont have to fear death? thats always a good place to live. im pretty sure most Isreali's dont visit thier holy sites all the time, and that they usually make a once a year trip to these areas, so my question is why is it important that the Isrealis get the land in which thier holy sites are situated, but the Muslims cant get the lands on which thier holy sites are located. it seems pretty unfair to me.
Quote:
I'm getting tired of these ignorant "racism" accusations. Tell me, when was the last time a non-Muslim country used WMDs? When was the last time a non-Muslim country supported terrorism? Killed hundreds of thousands, or hell even hundreds, of its own people? Used tactics of torture (torture, not abuse or mistreatment) for entertainment? Threatened to destroy another country? Threatened to wipe out every person of a certain ethnicity or religion? North Korea is the only one anywhere close to that. Face the facts, the Middle East is a problem, run mostly by extremist Muslim countries. As I've already said multiple times, truth is not racist. Name one Christian country, or any non-Muslim country apart from North Korea, that is as much of a threat to the world as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Yemen, etc. etc.
It wasnt an accusation, it was a warning to becareful of what you say. also as i recall no muslim country has used a WMD, infact the only MOABS used were used by the United States, and the only nuclear weapons used in anger were used by the United States, give me one example of a Muslim countries using WMDs. oh and timothy mcvay was a terrorist, and the United states funded Osama bin ladin so that he would fight against the USSR. The germans killed thousands of jews in WW2, and smoking kills millions yet its sanctioned all over the world. Also remember Abu Ghraib prison that looked like torture for entertainment to me. The US destroyed Iraq recently, and droped Millions of tons of munitions on a tiny little vietnam. North Korea hasnt invaded a country since the Korean war, and there isnt really any sources of active genocide in north korea. One non-muslim country that could be a threat to the whole world, how about... THE US, its invaded many countries on the emphasis of freedom, all these "radical countries" that we talk about end up doing nothing in the end, Only the US does anything, and it does alot. And how have these "Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Yemen" countries threatened the world, they have a hard enough time keeping up with the world.
Quote:
You've also been watching too many movies, haven't you? It wouldn't happen anyway, so you don't have to worry about it. Nobody is going to give up their nuclear weapons, especially if it ever comes down to just a few countries left with them and they're an even bigger bargaining chip.
What are you talking about it already happened a Sovereign country was invaded and its leader imprisoned (although he did deserve it) with no credible reason and with no reprecusions.
Quote:
Only the ignorant familes. Not all families of soldiers are like Cindy Sheehan, you know.
I bet you wouldnt say that if your son was nuked just so some political leader could leave his mark.
Quote:
It would be a counterattack to a nuclear strike anyway, so I'm sure most countries that mattered would at least understand. The initial nuclear attack would be much more devastating to world views than the counterattack would.
I agree that the first nuclear attack would be more devastating, but a nuclear retaliation would kill thousands of innocents (the first nuclear attack being only against combat forces), This would be a warcrime at best.
Quote:
Nuclear weapons would probably just strengthen the resolve of the soldiers and the "invading" forces, resulting in them being more "careless" to protect innocent life.
I fail to see how thier resolve would strengthen after learning that many of thier comrades are being indiscriminately killed with no way to defend themselves, only some of the people on the home front would have a greater fighting spirit.
Quote:
Or, rather, more accurately, the rest of the civilized world descends on the country that used the nuclear weapon and beats the hell out of them, controlling them for centuries into the future, and supports the victim country.
The victim country? oh you mean the country that was invading a smaller less easily defended nation that had no other choice. And the rest of the "Civilized world" would be angry at the nation that used the Nuclear weapon, but what could it do? invade? but that was disasterous. bomb into submission? thats never worked.... what do you do?
Quote:
It's well-known. Using a nuclear weapon is a no-no. Not only does it assure (especially against somebody like the United States) that you'll get your ass handed to you, to put it lightly, it also provides the entire world with a reason not to respect you. If India or Pakistan used nukes on each other, I'm sure America would be bombing everything that country has that has anything at all to do with nuclear technology, and I'm sure we wouldn't be alone in doing it.
Yes i never said using nukes was a good idea, using Nuclear weapons is retarded.
Quote:
Israel was re-formed where Israel should have been, and used to be. It's the only logical spot for it.
I dont see why, unless logical means the place that pisses alot of people of and ends up in the deaths of hundreds.
Quote:
Yet you argue for things that lead to killing, and support those who kill as often and as brutally as possible.
Where have I argued for things that lead to killing? and i have said before i dont support terrorists, would you smurfing read my disclaimer, why the smurf would i want anyone dead? sorry about that but seriously Ive done humanitarian work through out the world, i never wanted any one dead.
Quote:
The Middle East was destabilized for centuries, the creation of Israel didn't do anything but give them something else to be mad about. Another excuse.
So why give them that excuse, it just added more fuel to the fire. from the way things were going it seemed that the area was calming down, but then Isreal is formed and it all goes to pot again.
Quote:
"then you give them no choice"? So what, it's our fault if somebody uses nuclear weapons on us now? Like I said before, no country in their right mind would use nukes, but an extremist country (such as Iran) might provide nuclear weapons to terrorists.
Well if you give them a reason to use a nuclear weapon on you then yes, it is your fault, and terrorist wouldnt use a nuclear weapon as a weapon the would use it as a bargaining tool. Thats why they want the bomb. put the bomb in an undisclosed location and demand.
Quote:
That's right, forget all about history, it doesn't matter in today's world. [/sarcasm]
Im not saying to forget history, but to not apply it to todays world. Everything is different we have to adapt to changing circumstances.
Quote:
That is an extremely ignorant statement. There is nothing wrong with general organized religion, it's the extremism that's the problem. And when the majority of an entire region is controlled by extremism, that's a big problem.
I dont see why not as many religions end up fueling wars, Religion was probably formed as a way of making a general way people should act and whatnot. (dont kill people, and live a good life, as there are rewards). And thats fine and dandy, but with crusades, and jihads, and wars on islam. thats when organized religion goes wrong, and sadly thats pretty much a large part of religion, "we're right and your wrong."
and if i offend anyone because i feel that we should over come our overall stupidity as humans and should live in the world together as one, then fine im sorry. (for what i dont know, i just want people to not have to be worried about thier lives.)
and anyways this arguement is pointless as neither of us will relent in our views, but hopefully it would consolidate our own views so that we can find a greater sense of self. and personally i wish i could talk to guys inperson as it would be easier to get my points across. Damn you webforums.
i have really enjoyed this debate so far. :)
