For you launchies, a month later

Many of the bosses in the game are simply stronger monsters. They're not meant to add to the plot or anything of that sort: they're simply like the rulers of their particular area of the wilderness. Do you want an explanation for every malborro or wolf you see? You shouldn't, because in a fantasy setting you come to expect to see monsters. The bosses in FFXII aren't significant (except in cases where you're fighting the Empire, other people, etc., obviously) because they're simply more powerful creatures residing in a part of the world you're traveling through. If they were more than that, they would certainly warrant some sort of explanation. But they're not.

I think you're confusing "RPG" with "movie".

Why do you think the characters are undeveloped, Timerk?

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Originally Posted by Roto13

The XII story is fascinating to me, even if it does lack the emotional attachment to the characters that games like IX and X have. It's a different kind of story and it's well done.

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I have said the story is weak, I take it back.

The overall plot idea is good. I don't want to do spoilers but it is a very interesting plot, with no easy villains and surprising twists as good as my favorite Final Fantasy game (FFX). The "plot arch" about nethicite kicks ass!

But it is very poorly "written": It uses way too many cheesy & cliched plot shortcuts like the cheesy fiction staple of having (SPOILER)evil twins. The characters aren't presented to you in a subtle and ingenuous manner that makes you gradually make your own opinion of them, they are "dumped" into you lap already defined: Balthier is the rogue pirate, Vaan is the surly young adult with a chip on his shoulder, Fran is the classic outcast that has no place to call home...

The main plot arc gets introduced in a forced way and furthered also in a "dump cut scene to explain plot" manner, which I hate on any work of fiction, and in a FF game then it is a crime. We have the autonomy to walk and explore their world, there is no need for the plot to be dumped on us game players, we can obtain it while exploring like X or while performing "missions" like X2.

All in all it is a very uneven game. Music is <<<<<<< Graphics (1,000 times less cool or of good quality), Summons <<<<<<< Quickenings, Storytelling <<<< World & races

It will be remembered as the pioneer of many excellent ideas but not as a "best" IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Roto13

I think you're confusing "RPG" with "movie".

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How so?

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Originally Posted by Zeromus_X

Why do you think the characters are undeveloped, Timerk?

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Well, Renmiri makes a good point ;).

There was a scene right as the party is leaving (SPOILER)Jahara where Vaan and Ashe have a really cool moment where Vaan states that he 'is ready to find some answers. He then spends the rest of the game not doing that, even though you would think he would, you know, at least ask Basch about some stuff or something, since Basch was, you know, there and everything. So, this subplot gets dumped, but we go right into a little of Fran's story, which was interesting and all, but then it gets dropped right when you leave the area and never gets picked up again. (SPOILER)Why exactly did Fran leave Eryut Villiage? I am not talking about some generic 'I wanted to explore the world,' I want to know (SPOILER)why she decided to leave her family and everyone she loved, including the Wood, to partner with a Hume, when, by all accounts, Humes are distrusted by the Viera.

There are a lot of things I would love to know about the characters and Ivalice, it makes it all the more frustrating the game didn't explore these things more.

So that is why I think the characters are underdeveloped.

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Originally Posted by Timerk

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Originally Posted by Roto13

I think you're confusing "RPG" with "movie".

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How so?

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The G stands for "game". RPGs are games. Hell, a game can have almost no story at all and it can still be an RPG. Look at Final Fantasy 1 or Dragon Warrior 1. Were they not RPGs because they threw bosses in there with no reason to exist other than to be fought? What kind of development did the light warriors have?

You're obsessing over the story like that's the reason the game exists. It's not.

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Originally Posted by Roto13

The G stands for "game". RPGs are games. Hell, a game can have almost no story at all and it can still be an RPG. Look at Final Fantasy 1 or Dragon Warrior 1. Were they not RPGs because they threw bosses in there with no reason to exist other than to be fought? What kind of development did the light warriors have?

You're obsessing over the story like that's the reason the game exists. It's not.

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You forgot the very first letters RP. This is supposed to not be just a GAME but a "Role Playing" game. Nowadays even fight games have a sketchy backstory with a cool plot arch. The stories have good ideas but the writing fails to develop them. Heck, Soulcalibur IV has as much story, and told as "skillfully" as FFXII: The character's story is "dumped" on you in those little cards you win after 10 fights. Take away the the superb 3D movie like animation GRAPHICS and this game is as plot poor as Soulcalibur or Mortal Combat. Talim on Soucalibur is pretty much "Fran", Rayden is a "Balthier" wannabe, abandoning his heritage to help others less fortunate.

I never complained about FFXII graphics or animation, they are superb. But graphics on RPGs were never the main selling point. Heck, FF only got some good graphics around IX. What it lacked on graphics it made up in plot and storytelling. Sadly FFXII went the wrong way on story telling and left me and others who like ROLE PLAY wanting more.

I may be being too harsh but don't forget, FFXII is competing against Grand Theft Auto and other genres of games that are also very enjoyable in terms of being "just a game". And the FF team spoiled us. We expect more character development and story telling from any RPG, particularly from a game on a series that excelled at it.

One RPG thing that FFXII excels at is the world. I just love all the places and races / culture that they populated Ivalice with. I would really love to play a FFXII sequel on the same world, with the same battle system and lots more story telling :D THAT would be the perffect game and an instant classic :love:

I bought it midnight on launch day and completed it with 70 hours a few weeks later... overall... just say I was disappointed. It didn't really feel like a final fantasy at all.

I LOVE this game... I'm just stuck on FFIII now. Damn that portable-ness!

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Originally Posted by Renmiri

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Originally Posted by Roto13

The G stands for "game". RPGs are games. Hell, a game can have almost no story at all and it can still be an RPG. Look at Final Fantasy 1 or Dragon Warrior 1. Were they not RPGs because they threw bosses in there with no reason to exist other than to be fought? What kind of development did the light warriors have?

You're obsessing over the story like that's the reason the game exists. It's not.

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You forgot the very first letters RP. This is supposed to not be just a GAME but a "Role Playing" game.:love:

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:D

I believe Fran left because she was like most of the Viera, and was curious about the world beyond. It's implied in the dialogue. Vaan is being an observer and doesn't need to ask annoying questions. I personally don't consider having a character explain every little damn nuance in the game to be called "story telling" or "a well written, cohesive plot" This is exactly why I hated FFX. It was a 50 hour infomercial about buying a time share in Spira. FFXII is a game where if you want those kind of details, you read up on it cause wasting a cutscene to explain it reminds the player they are playing a game.

Also, several bosses were explained and mentioned in FFXII, giving them backstory (Garuda, Belias, Elder Wyrm.) Most of the bosses have their backstory explained in the beastiry. Besides, in reality, if you were being attacked by a monster that came out of no where like a boss, then chances are you would not have the chance to say, "It's the great guardian beast of the land. Created eons ago to protect this land by the ancient ones." It makes more sense to do it that way.

As for the characters, they are well written and far more human than previous games. Ashe's conflict with the nethicite, Vaan's journey to mature and see the world around, Basch's redemption, Balthier's conflict with his father and past. I'm sorry the game doesn't stop every five minutes to let the characters share their feelings, they're too busy trying to restore Dalmasca and stop the Empire to worry about how this is all making them feel. I'm sorry that FFXII doesn't have any scenes where characters complain about their abusive parents as though that is an excuse for them being a total whiny %@#$!

Most of them are adults, or have had adult hood thrusted upon them. They are over their problems. Vaan resolves the issues of his brother's death early in the game. Now he's seeing the world. From some of the cutscenes, he seems well informed about the world already. Realistically, in these situations, these type of people don't need to talk about their lives. Most of them are proffesionals and both Balthier and Lady Ashe made it pretty clear to Vaan and Penelo that they were not allowed to cause problems early in the game. It's realistic.

If you want a character that has no personality, look no further than Yuna. She's a doorknob and prudish as hell. She has no personality, no real motive outside of thinking it's the right thing to do, and ultimately if she were real, she would be the type of person who can stand next to you and you would never notice her. She's a generic "I'm doing this cause it's the right thing to do" character. It's why most of FFX's plot was irrelevant. In fact FFX would have been a better game if no one talked.

Most of that games cast was irrelevant and had no real purpose. Lulu is the generic dark brooding character that supposedly is like a big sister to Yuna, which translated to her threatening Tidus once in the very beginning of the game. She also gets a few interesting tidbits revealed but she never talks about them and the story completely drops them. They seemed to have only been written in cause the staff remembered that she was there and needed to write some plot to her.

Most people don't even remember Kimarihi, Rikku had no real role in the game except to fill in the role of annoying spunky female that has been a mainstay since FFVII. She's supposed to be there to stop Yuna but she never really does anything.

This leaves only Tidus, Wakka, and Auron. But two of them are disqualified for being annoying and whiny and never making a damn decision for themselves. Which leaves only Auron, as the only descent character. This is of course my personal feeling of that game, if you can even call it that.

FFXII, at least has a good story of political intrigue. Sure it's not as good as the standard set by FFT and Suikoden V but it's still better written than most RPG's. Everything has a reason to be there and I never felt like something happened cause the writer's just threw it in without any thought. I'm also grateful that there is no love story. Most of the love stories in RPG's are terrible. Even FF has only been capable of doing it well a few times (FFVIII). That's why it has always been relagated as just a side story in the game. Besides, it's unrealistic to assume that people are going to always "hook up" while they are on a mission to save the world, or get revenge.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I believe Fran left because she was like most of the Viera, and was curious about the world beyond. It's implied in the dialogue. Vaan is being an observer and doesn't need to ask annoying questions. I personally don't consider having a character explain every little damn nuance in the game to be called "story telling" or "a well written, cohesive plot"

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AHA!

You hit the nail in the head about what bothers me about FFXII storytelling. Like you: I personally don't consider having a character explain every little damn nuance in the game to be called "story telling" or "a well written, cohesive plot". Every little nuance of FFXII plot is said out loud by a character, "telegraphing the plot" which, btw, is considered very bad writing.

On XII Vaan comes and says flat out the issue he has with the death of his brother. (SPOILER)I guess I was running away from it The Emperor of Arcadia during the Senate meeting where Vayne's deeds are discussed does the same: Tells you exactly what the Senate is asking him to do in a loud voice. (SPOILER)You ask me to decide between my son and my Kingdom Well DUH! I didn't need Vaan and the King telling me that, did you ?

See the point I'm making about XII's weak storytelling ? The plot itself is good, political intrigue, several father / son conflicts, a fallen knight, etc... But the way it gets presented to the gamer is very cheesy and forced.

On X Tidus doesn't come out and say "My dad was abusive and that is why I feel ambivalent about him". The writers make us know that by subtle clues and flashbacks. This is good writing: Assume your reader is intelligent enough to figure out things for himself, don't patronize him by "telegraphing the plot".

I also dislike the idea of leaving parts of the story in the Bestiary. A matter of taste I suppose. But still... Again, this is Role Playing, and one of the best RP franchises ever. Soulcalibur, Metroid and Mortal Combat which have a very rudimentary world for players to explore, making their strong point the battles or shooting might need to resort to those "Story Cards" but an RPG ? An FF rpg ? Pu-lease!

You know, people, exposition does not have to be 'annoying and whiny,' it can be interesting and add a lot of story depth. The quality of exposition is determined by the writers of the game, so there is no reason to assume the exposition scenes in XII would be anything like the exposition scenes in X, thematically or otherwise.

:twocents:

I'll admit that FFXII telegraphs the plot a few times but what I meant about

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explaining every damn nuance in the game to be called "storytelling" or a "well written plot"

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concerend the idea that we have to explain every place we go like FFX did. Just about everytime you entered a new area, a cutscene would start where Yuna or Wakka would explain that we are in "such and such place" it was only made annoying by the fact that a good three quarters of the area's explained were irrelevant and had no real bearing on the plot. It would have been more entertaining to watch Jecht's journey cause you know he would have told Auron and Braska to "Shove it, I don't need to know where the hell I am, I just need to be pointed to where I need to go. Leave the tour till after we beat Sin";) My grammar takes a dive at 3 in the morning. Sorry for the misuderstanding.

As for the storyline, if you really pay attention, most of the FF's telegraph the plot by your logic. (SPOILER)The fact that Tidus had to be told that Yuna was going to die even though the entire game screams it out at every possible moment. If the player had been kept in the dark the scene would have had a greater impact. Even if you were to justify it by saying that it had to be made obvious for the players to see the scenes in a different light. It was still poorly done cause the game goes out of it's way to make it obvious. (SPOILER)Most of Yuna's dialogue concerns the idea that she is going to die.

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You know, people, exposition does not have to be 'annoying and whiny,' it can be interesting and add a lot of story depth. The quality of exposition is determined by the writers of the game, so there is no reason to assume the exposition scenes in XII would be anything like the exposition scenes in X, thematically or otherwise.

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I wrote my feelings on FFX to get this point across. That and I am sick and tired of fanboys and fangirls doing side by side comparisons of FFXII against FFX. Escpecially since most of their complaints about FFXII are my exact feelings about FFX. Obviously, we all have different feelings about how a story should be told. FFXII did it for some and did not for others. Though I still do not understand how you feel as though FFXII is not a cohesive world. We have more details about this game's world than any other in the series. Even more amazing is how everything actually blends together in the game. About 98% of the game's world has a logical reason for being there.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I'll admit that FFXII telegraphs the plot a few times but what I meant about

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explaining every damn nuance in the game to be called "storytelling" or a "well written plot"

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concerend the idea that we have to explain every place we go like FFX did. Just about everytime you entered a new area, a cutscene would start where Yuna or Wakka would explain that we are in "such and such place" it was only made annoying by the fact that a good three quarters of the area's explained were irrelevant and had no real bearing on the plot. It would have been more entertaining to watch Jecht's journey cause you know he would have told Auron and Braska to "Shove it, I don't need to know where the hell I am, I just need to be pointed to where I need to go. Leave the tour till after we beat Sin";) My grammar takes a dive at 3 in the morning. Sorry for the misuderstanding.

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Actually, I think the opposite would be true, because in the game, Auron has to tell Jecht 'this is not a pleasure cruise' on at least one occasion. Didn't Jecht make them stop to film a blitzball match? Most of Jecht's story, in fact, was him solving the mystery of how to get home, as we can see through his spheres, so I don't think the storytelling would have gone like you think just because of the nature of X's story (that of an outsider in a strange land). More on this below.

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As for the storyline, if you really pay attention, most of the FF's telegraph the plot by your logic. (SPOILER)The fact that Tidus had to be told that Yuna was going to die even though the entire game screams it out at every possible moment. If the player had been kept in the dark the scene would have had a greater impact. Even if you were to justify it by saying that it had to be made obvious for the players to see the scenes in a different light. It was still poorly done cause the game goes out of it's way to make it obvious. (SPOILER)Most of Yuna's dialogue concerns the idea that she is going to die.

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See, the key line there is 'if you really pay attention,' unlike in XII where plot points are just dumped out in the script but never followed through on. For example, you can see Yuna carry the weight of what she is about to do in almost every scene she is in, and you can sense her conflict. Compare that with Vaan, (SPOILER)who says he is running away from his brothers death, but we never actually see it in any of his actions. This is a problem every character has except Ashe and maybe Balthier, motives are mentioned but never expanded on, and we are being constantly told things instead of being shown.

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Originally Posted by Timerk

You know, people, exposition does not have to be 'annoying and whiny,' it can be interesting and add a lot of story depth. The quality of exposition is determined by the writers of the game, so there is no reason to assume the exposition scenes in XII would be anything like the exposition scenes in X, thematically or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I wrote my feelings on FFX to get this point across. That and I am sick and tired of fanboys and fangirls doing side by side comparisons of FFXII against FFX. Escpecially since most of their complaints about FFXII are my exact feelings about FFX. Obviously, we all have different feelings about how a story should be told. FFXII did it for some and did not for others.

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Actually, your complaints about X are almost the exact opposite of the popular complaints about XII.

It sounds to me like you have a bigger problem with the characters in X than you do with the narrative, and those are two different things. There are FF's I don't like, but even in those I can appreciate the story being told. If you think Tidus and Rikku are annoying that is fine, but it doesn't mean that Square should just stop giving their characters personalities.

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Though I still do not understand how you feel as though FFXII is not a cohesive world. We have more details about this game's world than any other in the series. Even more amazing is how everything actually blends together in the game. About 98% of the game's world has a logical reason for being there.

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So we have more details about Ivalics than we do about Spira, or even the FFVII planet? We don't even get to see (SPOILER)Rosaria, or even meet anyone from there other than Al-Cid.

If story is unimportant to you and you want to defend XII on that level, it makes sense, but to say this world is more developed than any other....it just doesn't make any sense.