dude, FE is back! :D how's it goin man? It has been a while since I've seen you. Missed you dude. what's with the roman numerals? Don't you guys know that Square didn't make an explanation for everything? :tongue:
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dude, FE is back! :D how's it goin man? It has been a while since I've seen you. Missed you dude. what's with the roman numerals? Don't you guys know that Square didn't make an explanation for everything? :tongue:
Your assumptions employ the grand deciever and extraneous, inevidenced- heck let's not bandy words MADE UP- elements to make them fit. Any time someone points out a flaw you make up something else to try and defend it. In short, you're trying to fit the evidence to fit your position, not the position to fit the evidence, and that is the height of irrationality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
alright, Ryu, we have already had a talk with him about this and he knows. Some of the things he said can be logical or even questionable, but yes he does seem to make more theories to testify his first. With that said(again) pls don't bag on FE. :D
i thought we were just going to let this thread die and everyone involved forget it ever happened... at least thats what i was planning on until someone posted in it again
*note to self "unsubscribe from all FE or FE related threads"
Ryushikaze everything you say has already probably been said in other parts of this thread or in other threads, but it doesnt matter cause FE wont listen. he just keeps going on and on making up more stuff to fit his little FF8 dream world
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53...anningZell.jpg
Here you have.
Squall is running from the robot but the photograph shows Zellīs running(he is already on the boat).
Strange phenomena like this only on Pravda.ru
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnislash07
Yeah...dream world...cool.....
ANyways, Future Esthar, where'd you get that photo from? Is that actually a screen shot from the game because I never noticed it that way....
-LYCHON
When Squall rans from the huge robot on the Dollet beach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
Yes, I know the scene. I was just wondering if it was really from the game or if it was edited. But I think you already answered that anyways :D
-LYCHON
Squall wears pants. Zell wears shorts. That figure is wearing pants. That is not Zell. It's Squall in Lo-res Grayscale.
Yeah, the screenshot was made at a bad time. It is Squall I have seen that cutscene many times and I know it is Squall. that poorly made screenshot makes you think otherwise. anyways, welcome back FE! :D
Óf course.Zellīs counsciousness is inside Squall.
During this scene the picture suddenly change to Squall at some time.
Go play it if you donīt believe me.
Or wait until I post another screenshot.
Considering that the resolution is so bad that Squall's hand isn't even visible and his entire left shoulder is missing, and that the boy actually does have quite lightly colored highlights in the right light, there is no reason at all to believe that that image depicts Zell.
IN FACT...
I have located a much better resolution shot.
http://www.ffshrine.org/ff8/fmvshots...m092/00011.jpg
Note the sleeves, which Zell is not wearing on his uniform. Also note the distinct lack of Zell's prominent headcrest, which would extend well above his head.
In short- NOT ZELL.
Did you read what I wrote?
I said the machine is taking a radiography of Zell inside Squall.
Black hair is not depicted white on black-and-white pictures.
I can take a screenshot similar to that were Squall appears.
Go see the scene and note the sudden change.
alright FE, have you ever looked through a camera in night shot? black can turn white. this is most likely the same principle to that. as we all know, it was night when they went Squall's group went up to the comm. tower. therefore, it was night when they fought Elnoyle and afterwards when they fought the giant robot spider. for the spider to see clearly, it must have had night vision on. so when it was dawn and the sun was rising during that cut scene, the night vision of the robot spider's eyes made Squall's hair significantly brighter.
Im at the Dollet tower part in the game. I will solve this once and for all...Bwahaha!
EDIT: I got the screenshots. I took them them using the ePSXe emulator and the original discs. Notice Squall never changes the whole time, and anyone can watch this scene in the game as it is indeed in there. I will give short descriptions pertaining to the photos.
In the first photo, Squall ( yes, Squall ) is running towards the ship
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...eforeScan2.jpg
In the second photo, Squall is encompassed by the robot's targeting recticule, and is scanned ( or something ). Yet Squall's appearance remains the same.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...llScanned2.jpg
In the third photo, This time the seed ship is targeted with the recticule and is scanned. Squall is blocked by the targeting recticule but again, he and the ship's appearance remain the same...interesting...
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ipScanned2.jpg
Squall finally reaches the ship and the robot is blasted by Quistis in the next scene, Squall's appearance remains the same.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...AfterScan2.jpg
Other notes of interest:1.) The “sudden change”, is the robot putting his targeting recticule on Squall and then the ship, whether it is targeting or scanning, Squall’s appearance NEVER changes, he looks like Squall the whole time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
2.) Black hair? Dude, Squall has BROWN hair, and it is light brown hair too. Light Brown would show up as gray in the picture, which it does.
3.) Zell's sleeves are rolled up, Squalls are always down. And Squall sleeves are down in the photos.
4.) Ryushikaze pointed this out, Zell’s headcrest is missing the whole time.
Conclusion: It is Squall running along the beach. There is no hint of Zell possessing him. Squall and the ship are temporarily targeted with the robot’s targeting recticule and are probably scanned ( though no one can truly know this ). It is possible the “scanning” was simply the robot targeting for attack. Anyone who wants to view the cut scene can play the game up to this point and view the evidence for themselves.
But even so, there is not enough evidence and the theory must be dismissed as false.
Firstly, Squall's hair is brown with very light brown, possibly sandy blonde highlights. NOT black.
Nextly, high intensity light on low light film (and other such low light techs) can cause brown hair and other shades that might appear 'dark' under normal light to become much brighter. The fact that Squall's hair has very light highlights VISIBLE elsewhen in this scene makes your 'radiography' less and less plausible and more and more illogical by the second.
Y'all think WAY too much!
And I've always assumed that the above screenshot was Squall. Just my two cents...
Did you guys see my screenshot evidence, I disprove once again. Like in mythbusters,
...this theory is pwned! :p
Well, I don't want to complain, but I think the same than Noj_R, are Scan effects, if you see a black hair in the light, it gets a shine effect, looking like gray or something similar, that happens to with brown hair, it's only the robot's scan, even the light effects gets in that type scans, you can try it to, take a camera, get a photo of black-haired people in the day, and see the shine in their hair
Exactly, Squall has gray hair in all the phots except the last one where the sun really shines bright on his hair. There is no evidence anywhere in the game even hinting to Zell possessing Squall. There isnt even evidence for propogators possession...I dont know where these weird theories come from...Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowcrono
FE, ever think about going into game development? I am :D We could make the best game together!
Yeah! I would like that, both have the capacities to make a good plot jajaja
This has probably been already pointed out by people but... Has anyone else noticed that in the Dollet FMV, when "Squall" is running away from the machine, in the machine's P.O.V., that it actually appears to be Zell? I don't have an image, but after seeing that same FMV several times, it's Zell, not Squall, being chased.
Key Points:
- Squall's uniform has long sleeves, the sleeves in the FMV are short, like Zell's shown when he's motioning for Squall to hurry.
- Squall's hairstyle is different than Zell's. Zell's points upward like what is shown in the FMV, not how Squall's hair is shown.
- You can sort of see the tattoos on the face.
I have RPGmaker XP.
But it is the time limit version.
I had also a level editor for Tomb Raider.
Go to www.tombraiderforums.net and invite Brooklin to create a project with you.
I had (some) experience so I can help you(you have to download the editor of course).
I would be very happen(donīt forget to tell me your username).
You are probably kidding but I am not.
Dear friends,on the second photo we can see Zell inside of Squall.Squall is taller than Zell.Donīt try to fool me.I played the game many times and know the back of Zellīs head very well.
I know Squall has a coat with a back-head dress.
But he donīt use it on this mission.
Believe-me.This robot was developed by Deling with the help of his engineers.
And we know who VinZer DElINg is,donīt we?
Which makes no surprise that the robot is advanced enough to make a picture after analysing the electric current going through Squallīs head and then add it to Squallīs picture.
By the way,Zell is using long pants on this mission as opposed to what you said.
It is good to know that I am not the only one.
By the way,what is a "Sleeve"(I am not American so I donīt know)?
Sleeves are still long, Not Zell's hair (the ultra prominent crest is missing), no tattoos.
I can't be the only one who that sounds wrong to. In any case, that's not Zell's head.Quote:
Dear friends,on the second photo we can see Zell inside of Squall.Squall is taller than Zell.Donīt try to fool me.I played the game many times and know the back of Zellīs head very well.
Relevance?Quote:
I know Squall has a coat with a back-head dress.
But he donīt use it on this mission.
You mean 'we all know who FE thinks Vinz is.'Quote:
Believe-me.This robot was developed by Deling with the help of his engineers.
And we know who VinZer DElINg is,donīt we?
Do you even realize how stupid and psuedosciency that sounds?Quote:
Which makes no surprise that the robot is advanced enough to make a picture after analysing the electric current going through Squallīs head and then add it to Squallīs picture.
I made an error. My debunk was not reliant on this one claim. You're still up the creek without a paddle as far as this little postulate of yours goes since he's wearing short sleeves. Squall isn't. It is Squall in the FMV.Quote:
By the way,Zell is using long pants on this mission as opposed to what you said.
Where your arms are in shirts and jackets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
I can't say that I ever noticed that.
No.Donīt you know how a medical TAC works?Quote:
Do you even realize how stupid and psuedosciency that sounds?
The robot is advanced enough to study personality using electric currents (counsciousness),associate it with DNA and then create a picture of Zell based on Zellīs genoma.
i've done that bit about 12 times and I've never realised it
didn't you anything about the black-white, grayscale thing? also, we have played this game many times as well and we have beaten it before you did so I think we have played it enough to know who's who also. the fact still remains that you are using your Vinzer Deling theory to back up this theory.
I realized it the first time.
I noticed that. I managed to get my disc to freeze just at that point, gave me a great view.
No.Thatīs not the case.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53...llbettres2.jpg
I think on this picture is easier to see that it is Zellīs back.I know it well.
I finished the game many times.
The shape is not of Squallīs hair.
If you look at Noj_R second picture you will see that there really are two hair colors on the same picture.One brown from Squall which appears over another white from Zell.And there is not a smoot transition between them.
This means that the robot is scanning Zellīs counsciousness inside Squall.
A camera can not take a single color and split it in two very different ones.
hello? have you noticed that the piece of Zell's hair that is suppoed to be sticking up is not shown? it would be obvious to see but since that is not Zell, it is not there.
Not at range, not while moving, and it doesn't scan brainwaves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
Whee! Psuedoscience! ADVANCED! So, basically, you're saying it can read minds via electrical signals, make a genetic match based on these electrical signals (which assumes a constant set of signals for each set of DNA, which is complete bull), and then make an image on these signals.Quote:
The robot is advanced enough to study personality using electric currents (counsciousness),associate it with DNA and then create a picture of Zell based on Zellīs genoma.
You fail at parsimony.
Apparently not enough to distinguish between characters.Quote:
I think on this picture is easier to see that it is Zellīs back.I know it well.
I finished the game many times.
Closer to Squall than Zell.Quote:
The shape is not of Squallīs hair.
Say it with me now- HIGHLIGHT. Squall's hair has very bright, nigh blonde HIGHLIGHTS. That picture is totally consistent with HIGHLIGHTS.Quote:
If you look at Noj_R second picture you will see that there really are two hair colors on the same picture.One brown from Squall which appears over another white from Zell.And there is not a smoot transition between them.
Or it's Squall's highlights. Or it's a camera error. Only you would automatically jump to 'mind scanning'Quote:
This means that the robot is scanning Zellīs counsciousness inside Squall.
You assume it is a single color. However, the light is causing Squall's highlights to appear, meaning it is NOT a single color.Quote:
A camera can not take a single color and split it in two very different ones.
Wow.
And, if you consider the type of scan it uses, it gets a contrast effect from the image to get a perfect image of the specified object, and it looks like a surrounding light, and the photo it's showing WERE the scan (surrounding light) started to get around Squall
And also you say Squall's hair is one color, in ALL the game Squall's hair gets a shine effect.
In this image, you see Squall's hair shine because of light, now put it in black and white effects, and if you notice, it gets shining gray.
http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/6...ualls120rc.jpg
http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/7...leeding0lj.jpg
and the talk was because the game's year ubication , does'nt it?
The imaging in the video you are looking at is in black and white, so it's not going to be as clear as you might hope. If you have ever run with long sleeves, the sleeves sometimes go up a little on your arm when you pull your arm back, which is you you might be seeing. But I see sleeves:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...FF/sleeves.jpg
And in this picture, you can see Squall's sleeves and a better view of the silhouette of his hair, which in that lighting is too thick in the back to be Zell's:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...vesandhair.jpg
And in this picture, which is a little closer up, you can see Squall's sleeves again, a lack of hair sticking up, and you can also see the two SeeD cadets who are already in the ship, one with hair sticking way up:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...sandcadets.jpg
Now as for the hair sticking up, look at Squall's hair, which does stick up a little. Note that Squall is running, so his hair is bouncing up and down:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...squallhair.jpg
Now look at Zell's hair. That is considerably taller than Squall's hair, even if it bounces up. So yes, you do see the hair sticking up a little in the video, but never this much:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...F/zellhair.jpg
I'm not conviced that is Zell. Yes, the hair is a little light, but it's a black and white video, that happens. So, as with all the other videos in FFVIII, I say this one is done accurately and well.
The whole FMV can be found here. It's a 7MB .avi file.
Lou-Use the tan "Insert Picture" button to insert pictures. But, that's an awful lot of shots, so for everyone's eyes, would you just mind leaving them as links?
You have to put [IMG]
I'm doing that, I type in (without the spaces) [ IMG] *link* [/ IMG] and it just prints the link.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llednar Twem
Edit: Ok, I guess on this forum the link has to end with .jpg or something like that in order to work, so thanks. And Such Great Heights, you don't HAVE to use the insert picture button, you just need the VBB code. If you press the insert picture button, it just puts the code there for you. It's no different than if you type it in yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeDRankLou
You HAVE to use the insert picture button.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...all_header.jpg
See? All I did was click on the insert picture button, paste my URL and click OK!
Virtually undistinguishable between the two hair colors in B/W ( Squall's is a little darker in shadows ). And since Squall was the only one running, it must be Squall, there is no time where Squall's appearance changes, and there is no evidence that Zell can possess people.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...alls120rc1.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e231/Noj_R/zell1.jpg
The theory is false...
Believe-me.A shining effect would not produce that.It would produce a smooth transition.Squall looks like a punk on that photo.
Zellīs hair stick but in the front,not in the back.
And in the scene the character seems to be a littlle curved down.
But you could see if sticking up it you were looking at him from the back.
? I dont get it, whats a punk have to do with a lighting effect in a B/W photo?
What evidence do you have that proves Zell can possess people, anyway?
This is the craziest thing I've heard this week, not the comment but what it is addressing. This is going far too deep but if there is some really impressive explanation I'd be happy to hear itQuote:
Originally Posted by Noj_R
Lol I made an image too, before reading all this thread;]
http://www.snowy-day.net/stuff/squalldriving.png
Also:
this is not ff7, The graphics in this game are slightly more realistic, allow for *sharp* contrasts.
yes Zell's hair sticks in the front, but it is high enough to see from the back. what you mean by curved down?
You misunderstood me.I am not saying it isnīt Squall.I am saying that the robot is scanning Zell inside Squall.
By curved down I mean that the upper part of the character(over the legs) is down.
I had not words to explain.
You STILL don't have the words to explain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
Actually, this is one of the craziest things Ive heard all year. The robot is targeting Squall AND THE SHIP. Why is the robot scanning the ship? Is it being possessed by Selphie too and wants to say hi?Quote:
Originally Posted by Port Regulator mobiletype
I can imagine that when the robot scans Squall, and then scans the ship, that it is "thinking" that the ship is Squall's destination. That's all that is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noj_R
Yeah, I know. Everyone whos played FF8 knows that, except FE...Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeDRankLou
This is so obvious that im suprised no one pointed it out yet but how the heck can Zell posses Squall when Zell just finished running to the ship himself? I mean if Zell were possessing Squall then he wouldnt be able to run to the ship because his concisnouswould be inside of Squall leaving his body comepetly imobile.
ummm, if someones possessed they can still move. anywho, we have already said multiple times that Zell has already made it to the Ship.
My bad, I didn't read a few posts before. I didn't realize that a mod merged another thread into this one, for some odd reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noj_R
I pointed this out somewhere else in another thread ( or this one...I forget ). Anyway , FE said it was Quistis or something sustaining Zell or some other nonsense that is completely baseless. I cant remember all of his circular logic, so Im sorry I cannot quote what was said exactly...Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnislash07
This donīt refute the theory,anyway.Quote:
The robot is targeting Squall AND THE SHIP. Why is the robot scanning the ship? Is it being possessed by Selphie too and wants to say hi?
Anyway,we see Zell inside Squall on that picture.What better proof do you wanna,Noj_R?
You are the one using circular logic.You think it is crazy and donīt wanna to believe it so you try to fit what you see to what you think instead of the opposite.
We see Squall there and Zell inside him.Thatīs why we see two kinds of hair.It couldnīt be an highlight or shining because it would require a smooth transition.
So it didnīt matter the sleeves or any other thing.
Squall is taller than Zell and the hair subject is what matters.
This is becoming a subjective subject.
No, it is quite definitely you being incorrect. You'd think that getting told you're wrong by a few hundred other people would clue you in eventually...Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
There were two other members agreeing with me here.
As I said,this is a subjective question.
In the same way as some people like beans and others donīt some people recognize Zell and others not.
On subjective matters where people canīt had concrete proof it didnīt matter the opinion of the majority.
The very beggining of this thread is a good example.
FE, you see you are wrong. You see this in the cutscene and think, "Hey, that looks like Zell a little. I wonder how that could be? I'll make a theory that could possibly explain this." Sounds like what you would say. Zell can't be inside Squall. His mind, his conscious, anything. First off, why would he do it? Also, if Zell was inside Squall possessing him or whatever you call it, then how come we see him moving his own body motioning Squall to come on(the hand gesture in the cutscene). This theory has no basis besides bad screnshots that don't even provide proof as they are very subjectable, even though all of us(or at least most of us) know that that is Squall, nothing else, nothing inside of him.
The only way I could imagine Zell possesing Squall is if Zell were a Sorceress. Are you going to tell us now that Zell is a Sorceress?
wouldn't he be considered a sorcerer?
We don't see Zell in Squall, we see a robot scanning Squall's actual position and future destination, it is a laser scan, so the laser start usually in heads position to locate a person, and this laser is white to make the person have a contrast with the next world, it could have started in the middle of the back, but for some strange reason, it started at head.Quote:
We see Squall there and Zell inside him.Thatīs why we see two kinds of hair.It couldnīt be an highlight or shining because it would require a smooth transition.
And for the shining, we see smooth transition in ALL the game, in special in FMV
Possibly. But what do you want more, gender correctness, or Zell in drag?Quote:
Originally Posted by Heero Yuy NWZC
I would like some gender correctness pls. :D
Oh come on! You know you've dreamed about Zell in Quistis' outfit, whip and all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heero Yuy NWZC
you misunderstood me, i meant that Zell would be unable to move because his mind would be inside of Squall's body leaving Zell's body unable to move because there is no mind in his body to make him move (basically the same thing u said later on). sorry if my posts are confusingQuote:
Originally Posted by Heero Yuy NWZC
No u see Zell inside Squall and everyone else sees just Squall so that isnt proof. proof is something undeniable that everyone agrees on and cannot be disproven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
you say the hair is important but the sleeves are not... that makes no sense. if you are going to say that Zell's hair is shown in some scenes than other parts of his apperance would show up like his sleeves. also his height is hard to determine because Squall is running over uneven terrain so it may seem like he is getting taller and shorter as he goes over different land heights.
Correction-A lot.Quote:
Hey, that looks like Zell a little.
And I am sure that I am right.
Guys,letīs stop concentrate on the theory.
Letīs just concentrate in the subject of whether Zell is there or not.
Zell is shorter than Squall.Thatīs easy to see on the game.Quote:
also his height is hard to determine because Squall is running over uneven terrain so it may seem like he is getting taller and shorter as he goes over different land heights.
Canīt a robot have more than one task at the same time?Quote:
We don't see Zell in Squall, we see a robot scanning Squall's actual position and future destination, it is a laser scan, so the laser start usually in heads position to locate a person, and this laser is white to make the person have a contrast with the next world, it could have started in the middle of the back, but for some strange reason, it started at head.
For instance,to scan Squall and his destination and to take a radiography of who is inside Squall?
it is easy to tell who is taller or shorter when they are standing right next to each other but when looking at a blurry picture of one of them running away it is hard to judge exactly how tall the induvidual is so saying that it is one or the other based on height wont work
I only referred the height thing to show why we see Zellīs hair (White) below Squallīs hair(dark).
It is not below, it stays at the same level. There is no hair lower than Squall's since Squall is the only one there. Also, why would they have a robot do a radiography? and if they did, it wouldn't do a radiography on an organic being, only mechanical ones. It scans to see what or if there is something there. It scans to know what the objects/targets are.
The only way to porve this theory is to give examples of it happening elsewhere in the story. This cannot be a " one time " experience. What do you have to say, FE?
I know what I see.You are using circular logic now.Quote:
There is no hair lower than Squall's since Squall is the only one there.
There is no smooth transition between the hairs so it canīt be just brightness.
As I said,letīs just concentrate on the scene and not on the theory.We will be back to the theory later.Partiality is necessary.Quote:
Also, why would they have a robot do a radiography?
Odine is researching certain phenomena.But he only need to research it a few times.Quote:
The only way to porve this theory is to give examples of it happening elsewhere in the story. This cannot be a " one time " experience. What do you have to say, FE?
Dude, this whole thing is about the theory. You can't just push it aside, that's bull. I see smooth transition in the scene and I can see clearly the objects that are there. You do not see any other hair in Squall's area but his own.
I will not be able to reply to anything until several hours after this post due to a b-ball practice I must attend and dinner. See you all in a few hours. :D
See ya Heero. Well FE, about my point...
The earlier post was edited with the answer.
So...No one else possesses anybody else the whole rest of the game ( excluding sorceresses, of course )?
Of course they possess.But it isnīt scanned.
And Zell is not a sorceress.He is a knight.
Quistis knight.
Elloneīs ability is a property only a Propagator has.
A sorceress can sent the consciousness of her knight inside his father (or mother,it depends on the dominant gene).
But remember that a Propagatorīs consciousness can only be sent inside another with the same color.
You said the robot sees Zell possessing Squall because the robot used radiography to see him ( post #613 ).Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
But radiography is X-Ray...Which would show their skeletons, so whyQuote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
do we see them normally? The robot is targetting Squall and his destination, and is simply calculating robotic things. Zell cannot be in Squall, because propogators cannot possess things and the above contradiction.
I used the word "radiography" to describe the mechanism the robot is using to detect Zell inside Squall.
Itīs probably not the best word .
You had been misunderstood me.I have not been talking about the sudden light that appears around Squall and the ship.
I am saying that the robot detected Zell inside Squall ALL THE TIME.
How do you know this when it shows Squall part of the time? And how do you know it isnt Irvine possessing Squall since he has blond hair too?
Irvine hasnīt blonde hair.
FE u are the one using circular logic, this theory only works if your propogator theory works and that only works if all of your other theories about the WOTC are right and none of them provide compete proof provided from ingame reference. All of your proof is just more theories to back up your old ones
edit: FE is right about that Irvine has brown hair similar to Squall's
Ive been sayin that since the beginning, but Im glad you noticed this pattern too. Your both right, he has brown hair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnislash07
FE, how do you know that it isnt Seifer, who is in fact possessing Squall, and not Zell ( Seifer has blonde hair ;))...
Okay, now you're turning a sarcastic comment into a theory. Wow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
So. Zell is Quistis' knight. And a sorceress can send her knight's mind into a parental figure. Zell is possesing Squall, then Quistis must be behind it. So Squall is Zell's mother? Am I right here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noj_R
Oh, great, now Squall is Seifer's mother? HA! Take that, slash fangirls! SQUALL AND IRVINE WILL LIVE ON!
Well, FE told this:
andQuote:
I only referred the height thing to show why we see Zellīs hair (White) below Squallīs hair(dark).
The first, if the robot is making a scan of Zell in Squall, it would be all the body and not only the hair, also, it would be in more time than that just imageQuote:
There is no smooth transition between the hairs so it canīt be just brightness.
And for the second, I have to say it over and over again? there's EVER a brightness effect, specially in FMV, and it has Smooth transition, just take a quality image
Omnislash, guess what? We have said that since like page 1 or 2 of this thread. :p
So, uh... Time Cube, anyone?
Wow, just a neverending theme, it seems (including the Time Cube hehe)
wow...Theres a mouth full...:rolleyes2Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryushikaze
No,that is not the case here.
I am using a physical evidence to support my theory.
Although it seems subjective at all I think it is still objective.
It was people themselves who donīt wanna to recognize Zell inside Squall because that seems too crazy and contradicts what they think about the game.
Now,that IS circular logic.
Every open minded person and good observer will be impartial and recognize Zell was saw inside Squall.
I see I need to put a screenshot showing Zellīs back somewhere on the game.
It is not just the blonde hair.We can see lines and shapes on this hair which were from Zell.
Your 'evidence' consists of scraps of scenes analyzed in isolation, jumping to bizarre conclusion which assume only a single alternate possibility from the norm. Oh, and most of your 'evidence' is other badly supported postulates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
People don't want to recognize 'Zell inside Squall' BECAUSE HE ISN'T.Quote:
It was people themselves who donīt wanna to recognize Zell inside Squall because that seems too crazy and contradicts what they think about the game.
Learn what circular logic is before accusing people of it.Quote:
Now,that IS circular logic.
Yes they will, and no they won't.Quote:
Every open minded person and good observer will be impartial and recognize Zell was saw inside Squall.
Which will show, at best, that under certain lighting conditions, and while being observed by excessively lo res greyscale cameras, Squall and Zell's hair look kinda alike from the back. THIS PROVES NOTHING, and you STILL have the problem of the obviously missing headcrest, which should be visible, but is not.Quote:
I see I need to put a screenshot showing Zellīs back somewhere on the game.
It is not just the blonde hair.We can see lines and shapes on this hair which were from Zell.
A blurry 2 sec video hardly counts as evidence, especially when Squall doesnt change appearnce and you dont believe in LIGHTING EFFECTS...Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
Yes, because it DOES contradict the game and it IS Squall that is running. I cannot believe you think it even remotely resembles someone else...Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
You are right, believing Zell is possessing Squall is circular logic because this whole concept depends on the TP ( They are Propogators ) theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
First off, I cannot believe anyone knows Zell's back well enough he can see it through another person. Squall and Zell are both wearing indistinguishable SEED uniforms ( except the sleeves, which you completely ignore ), NOBODY can tell their backs apart. That is simply ridiculous. And no, we cannot see Zell's hair shape either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
And after all that, it hasnt even occured to you that if this thing was remotely able to happen...It might be Seifer possessing Squall :eek:
I think there weres situations on the game in which we see Zellīs back but no headcrest.
Ok, but you cant tell Zell's back from Squall's when they wear the same clothes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
Also, tell my why Seifer couldnt be possessing Squall, Im dying to know...
Not reallt FE. Theres is alwasy a hint of it no matter what angle it's at(except for if you were look ing at his back from the floor but there is no shot of that anywhere in the game).
I had yet to research that.
The back of the head,I mean.Quote:
Ok, but you cant tell Zell's back from Squall's when they wear the same clothes.
They werenīt propagators with the same color.Quote:
Also, tell my why Seifer couldnt be possessing Squall, Im dying to know...
__________________
Squall is the orange Propagator on the air lock room.
Zell is the orange Propagator on the passenger room.
Seifer is the green Propagator standing on the elevator to the bridge.
I think you should prove this theory before making new ones up...Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
WHAT THE smurf?! Noone is a propogator! They don't send their consciousness to the other anyways! They send brain signals to the other to communicate, but they do not control!
Whoa! Where in the game does it say they send brain signals?Quote:
Originally Posted by Heero Yuy NWZC
Itīs quite simple to identify them.
Squall-Squall is someone who donīt like to express his feeling too much.
He likes his privacity a lot.
He is a lone wolf and a "Whatever" person who donīt like to carry others burdens.Itīs no surprise he stays at the air lock quietly with his back turned to the rest of the world.
Zell-Very energic,he acts before thinking.
A good example is when he tries to attack the robot on the Pandora without thinking.A very impulsive person.
Seifer-Seifer like to be the center of attention.He would stay at the elevator since people needs to use it to access the bridge.This propagator kinda resembles a product in a stand of a supermarket.
No, I mean, use actual ingame proof that says or equates the propogators to the main cast. Symbolism isnt proof.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
Itīs not symbolism.Itīs behaviour.
Now that I think about this,when we consider my proposed Centra Kingīs dinasty and my Character/Propagator relations we have:
Green+Grey=Grey.
Grey+Orange=Orange
Orange+red=red
red+green.
Which means Squall can send Rinoaīs consciousness inside Edea,Rinoa can send Squallīs consciousness inside Laguna,Quistis can send Zellīs consciousness inside Squall,Irvine can send Selphieīs consciousness inside Quistis and Selphie can send Irvineīs consciousness inside Seifer even though he is not Irvineīs father but grandgrandfather.But it didnīt matter.What matter is that the color is the same.
What matters is that all of this is pure speculation and none of it is proven fact. I suggest you prove one thing before moving on to something else...
i know that but FE often forgets things (like the obvious proof we provide to disclaim his theories) and so i figured i would point it out 1 more time... in fact someone will probably say it again before this thread is eventually closed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hero Yuh NC
also Nojr is right FE you have yet to prove with specific in game evidence that the propogators are the main characters so if you are using that theory to prove your Zell/Squall theory then your Z/S theory is automatically false
Noj_R, didn't that message in that one room in the ragnarok say that the propogators with the same color can communicate with each other? Well, if not, that is my thinking on the matter.
Exactly.If you think to relive needs communication of course.
No.I just think it is bull.Quote:
i know that but FE often forgets things (like the obvious proof we provide to disclaim his theories) and so i figured i would point it out 1 more time... in fact someone will probably say it again before this thread is eventually closed.
You are the one who forgot.
Quote:
No,that is not the case here.
I am using a physical evidence to support my theory.
Although it seems subjective at all I think it is still objective.
It was people themselves who donīt wanna to recognize Zell inside Squall because that seems too crazy and contradicts what they think about the game.
Now,that IS circular logic.
Every open minded person and good observer will be impartial and recognize Zell was saw inside Squall.
I see I need to put a screenshot showing Zellīs back somewhere on the game.
It is not just the blonde hair.We can see lines and shapes on this hair which were from Zell.
__________________
How can you say that there were lines and shapes that were from Zell's hair? If you didn't know, they both have smooth hair in the back. The only shape that Zell has on his hair is the headcrest. Lines have nothing to do with it since they represent strands of hair.
FE, I'm just curious; does this change the plot of the game any? What does it add to the plot? Just trying to see where you're coming from!
Future Esthar, on your Propagator theory. Where the frell did you get that cracked up idea from anyway? You have absolutely no in game evidence supporting it. Furthermore, you aren't basing the copmparisons on the behaviors, you're basing them solely on the placement of the Propagators in the ship. And you know what? I could give an explanation that makes a whole lot more sense than the one you did.
How about this: The Propagators were standing there because there isn't that much room on the damned ship. They spread out because they don't want to make it easier for them to get killed. That's all. There is absolutely nothing that indicates that they are related in any way to the main characters of the game, and even if they were, there is nothing that indicates that they have possessive powers of any sort.
That theory does makes sense because it is logical. I would agree with it.
Indeed. It takes the available evidence- and rather a lot of it, too- and attempts to explain it without invoking any extraneous qualifiers to make it work.
BTW, Esthar. If you want your theories to be taken seriously, you should pony up your overtheory. No holding stuff back, no occasionally pulling out new stuff to cover your mistakes, no vague claims. All the evidence you've got, the theories you are deriving from it, all arranged together for everyone to see, test, and falsify.
You are right.Quote:
Indeed. It takes the available evidence- and rather a lot of it, too- and attempts to explain it without invoking any extraneous qualifiers to make it work.
BTW, Esthar. If you want your theories to be taken seriously, you should pony up your overtheory. No holding stuff back, no occasionally pulling out new stuff to cover your mistakes, no vague claims. All the evidence you've got, the theories you are deriving from it, all arranged together for everyone to see, test, and falsify.
__________________
But since this is a unique thread I choose to post all my theories,sometimes I post others.
But the challenge to show that was Zell still remains.
Of course it changes.The very way the world of FF8 appears.Quote:
FE, I'm just curious; does this change the plot of the game any? What does it add to the plot? Just trying to see where you're coming from!
Yes,itīs on behaviours.Quote:
Furthermore, you aren't basing the copmparisons on the behaviors, you're basing them solely on the placement of the Propagators in the ship.
I just base it on locations,the one at the entrance and the one at the aisle.
Note something interesting:
1)
Propagator at air lock room-Squall
Propagator at passenger room-Zell
Propagator at bridgeīs elevator-Seifer
Propagator at hangar-Rinoa
Propagator at little room near hangar-Irvine
Propagator near locked door-Selphie
Propagator near entrance-Edea.
Propagator on aisle-Quistis.
I base this SOLELY on behaviour and physical details.
2)
Edea+Seifer=Rinoa.
Rinoa+Squall=Zell.
Zell+Quistis=Selphie.
Selphie+Irvine.
I base this solely on behaviour and feelings.
Now,I didnīt base 1 nor 2 on my "Propagator dominant gene" theory.I am telling the thruth.Believe-me.
But two days ago I made everything together and was amazed how everything fits together.
3)
Green+Grey=Grey
Grey+Orange=Orange
Orange+Red=Red
Red+Green.
Which means two Propagators always give birth to one whose color is similar to the one from one of the parents.
This is the "Propagator dominant gene" theory.
I developed this independently of 1 and 2 so it cames as an interesting coincidence which shows how everything fits toguether.
The Propagator theory?Quote:
That theory does makes sense because it is logical. I would agree with it.
Hm...Interesting and logical. I think I will agree with Future Esthar's theories.
But the Propagator near the entrance is red, so it may be Quistis.
Heero was referring to Skyblade's theory, Esthar.
And Ezer, have you read all of his claims? Make sure you do before agreeing with him out of hand.
I think Ezer already spot the behaviour character relation.
WRONG! Because the Propagators (except the one stuck on the lift) all behave exactly the same. They see you, they chase after you, they attack. That's it as far as Propagator behavior goes. They don't "behave" like the characters, they are just mindless killing machines. *Shock and alarm* That's amazing, isn't it, they are monsters and they act like every other monster in the game!Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
And where the hell did this come from?Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
They are different.
And not only in behaviours. I mean the one near the locked door is much smaller than the others.
... The size,... it's just distance effect, you know... I also think they are all the same, how to say it?... JUST ANOTHER MONSTER
Not distance effect.
Attachment 20398
Attachment 20399
This entire 'theory' is reliant upon taking their placement and ascribing a deeper symbolic meaning to it, and calling that the propagator's 'behaviour', ignoring their actual, identical behaviours.
In short, it has ABOUT as much validity as a Cid= Omega Weapon theory.
Maybe less.
Has it occured to you guys that Future Esthar probably doesnt believe his own theories and he simply does it so he can laugh when people take it seriously. Because I dont think anyone could take this crap seriously, especiallu if they have played the game through.
Only about every other time I read his stuff.
But then again, as a decently long time participant in SW/ST versus debates and other such things, I've come to realize that a lot of people actually believe the ubelievable things they spout.
As has been stated previously in this thread by more than one Mod, if you are going to post only to complain about FE and his theories, then don't bother posting. No one is twisting your arm to come into this thread.
They didnīt behave the same.They change on things like attack willing and basic attitude.And yes,I believe my theories.
You had yet to explain the coincidence I came into.
I can show you that Edea is a Propagator.
I think you never note the special Propagator head changing into a human head when Edea undergone this transformation on Deling City.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53...Propagator.jpg
Note the Propagatorīs head there.
Firstly, please trim your screenshots.
Secondly, that's her headdress. Even if it were a propagator head, which it really isn't, it's not any more an actual part of her than the rest of the clothing she is wearing.
As for your coincidence- I assume you mean your propagator genetics postulate? I don't have to. It's completely and totally unsubstantiated. YOU have to substantiate it before we have to do anything.
Besides, like you said, it's only a coincidence.
I trimmed it, but don't have a place to upload it, so I just included it. Seriously, it's not that hard, Future Esthar, and it makes it much easier to look at.
Anyway, where the heck do you get the idea that that's a propagator head?! It looks nothing like a propagator head. The shape's wrong, the horns aren't there on a Propagator, and a Propagator's head has eyes. Seriously, what are you smoking?!
All of Skyblade's arguements on the headress are true, especially for the fact that the part that FE says is a propogator head has no eyes. Also if you look at it, it is transparent. Are propogator heads transparent? I think not.
Settle down children this isn't the Debate forum. Also, Future for all your theories make it into one big page.
I don't see a mod title under your name Jackpot so please don't moderate.
lol don't be so hasty to judge a person just trying make peace.
It's not your job to do so, I'm afraid. That's why we have the Warn button.
lol right after i said you were the awesomest mod. ever.
So, just because you complimented her it makes you think your immune to her tongue-lashings?
Ha
I wish. Unfortunately it's not that easy to manipulate mods like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Devourer Of Worlds
Besides, because she is a good mod, she has to do her job and that includes fussing at people who take moderating into their own hands. (I just hope that I won't get fussed at for these comments).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heero Yuy NWZC
Thanks for all the support, Heero. I just wish Future Esthar could see the logic in my ideas. Or at least attempt to give a somewhat logical reason as to why these ideas are invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heero Yuy NWZC
umm, now the fight is for who moderates? this gonna be funny :D
EDIT:
I agree with Skyblade and HeeroQuote:
I just wish Future Esthar could see the logic in my ideas. Or at least attempt to give a somewhat logical reason as to why these ideas are invalid.
Also FE, try to successfully prove us a Plothole before to take us to another one, please?
Nah. Leeza has everything well in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowcrono
Right now the only thing I can see us arguing over is what...odd...idea Future Esthar will present next.
For what I have been reading last week, it could be anything, he could even say that the one behind all this plot is a chocobo... (ow, monkeys, I give him an idea)
MMM.... Choconspiracies.
Yes. The Chocobo kid has been manipulating Ultimecia the ENTIRE TIME? WHY? Because he's HYNE! And he wants ALL THE POWER BACK! None of you can disprove this theory so it MUST BE TRUE!
1 word "Ridiculous"
You are wrong.Propagatorīs head are transparent and Edeaīs "head" has eyes.This is just the wrong screenshot to see them.
This is the right one.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53...aspropeyes.jpg
See the three eyes?
The third is difficult to see but not impossible.
You are right even though you are being sarcastic.Quote:
Yes. The Chocobo kid has been manipulating Ultimecia the ENTIRE TIME? WHY? Because he's HYNE! And he wants ALL THE POWER BACK! None of you can disprove this theory so it MUST BE TRUE!
Chocoboy is a Shumi possessed by Doc Odine (no kidding).
MOLV , the O in Roman Numerals was a useless number, used to represent a space between a skipped Digit, and therefore was eliminated, and squaresoft keeps things old fashioned
MOLV = 1055 period ~
No FE u are wrong, Edea's headress does not have any eyes on it and the propagator heads are not transparent. when you fight them on the ragnarok you cannot see through their heads so i dont know where u get the idea that their heads are transparent.
Also this was mentioned before and you never even noticed it but what about all the horns Edea's headress has? The propagators do not have any horns on their heads. Their heads are pretty flat too while Edea's headress is more curved and rounded.
*sigh* I'm getting sick of this, but it's funny, so I'll be here to see what else FE gets in his dreams and take a good laugh :)
Thank you, you put that very well. I was going to say the same thing, only I wasn't going to be nearly so polite about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnislash07
Future Esthar, that is not a Propagator head. It looks nothing like a Propagator head. It is a visor on her headress. Even in the first pic, you can see her face beneath it, since it doesn't even cover her entire head. Also, Propagators don't have hair, so if you argue that it is a Propagator head bacoming Edea's head, how come the long hair is there on the Propagator version, but it disappears when the rest of the headress?
No, FE, Chocoboy is not a shumi at all. HE IS HYNE HIMSELF! HE'S CONTROLLING ODINE! BTW, speaking of using forensic evidence over dialogue, your 'shumi' postulate violates that idea. You take one piece of dialogue and construe it into a no limits fallacy for which we have absolutely zilcho evidence.
And no, Edea's headdress is in no way, shape, or form, a Propagator head. It is also not part of her body.
Don't change the subject. We're not moving on to his next insane theory until he's admitted that he's wrong about this one. I'm sick of him getting off the hook this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryushikaze
Which was why I brought it back to Edea's headdress. I want the boy to cop to his error too.
Have your laugh without making any more posts of this nature. As I said just as few posts up from here:Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowcrono
...do not come in here for the sole purpose of posting what you just did. It's not on topic, it's spam, it's borderline flaming and just plain not nice. I don't want to see any more of that sort of posting from anyone in here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeza
Upss, sorry, my fault
In any case, I still want to know how Future Esthar will prove us how 1572 it's FFVIII year, how Zell can be in Squall in a robot scan and how the theory of the Propagator can be true, also I'm with Skyblade, first finish your first theory before take us to another one, FE, and for the plot of Edea being a Propagator, is'nt a Propagator head, it does'nt have eyes, and that visor-like thing is empty, like a "Gatchaman" helmet or something like that
I think I already showed the eyes to you.
1-No,sir,the Propagatorīs headīs are clearly transparent.
2-It is clearly a Propagatorīs head.It didnīt matter the curveness(look to my final comment on this post).
3-There is no evidence for it being a cloth.
4-Edea is grey here like in the Ragnarok(I am not even talking about her clothes but about her body part of which can be seen).
5-Edeaīs hands resembles that of a Propagator.
Did it even occurred to you that Edea is undergoing a Propagator-human transformation?
I never said Edea was in her full Propagator form.
I pretty much did this at the beggining.Quote:
In any case, I still want to know how Future Esthar will prove us how 1572 it's FFVIII year
I already gave three proofs for three different theories.
It just happens they were all subjective so if you donīt wanna to accept them it is up to you.
I already made my job.
1- No sir, the propogator head's are clearly not transparent. do you see their brain or the core of them that they use to function? i think not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
2- propogator heads do not curve to make a sharp point. their point at the end is rounded.
3- it is a visor. she used her magic to make it come out of the headress and then used her magic to put it back in.
4- it's called make-up buddy.
5- ever heard of long nails? and i don't recall propogator hands being so small and and the nails being so sharply pointed.
Did it ever occur to you that she has been married to Cid for quite sometime before this and that he would've found out by then and would've said something about that in the game? and the "humans were once propogators" thing is another one of your theories that has yet to be proven.
I agreeQuote:
Did it ever occur to you that she has been married to Cid for quite sometime before this and that he would've found out by then and would've said something about that in the game? and the "humans were once propogators" thing is another one of your theories that has yet to be proven.
No. You showed us a screenshot in which you claimed there were eyes. The screenshot shows differentlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
Incorrect. they're decidedly opaque.Quote:
1-No,sir,the Propagatorīs headīs are clearly transparent.
It is clearly not. Not only that, but that you have to dismiss factors weakens your position further.Quote:
2-It is clearly a Propagatorīs head.It didnīt matter the curveness(look to my final comment on this post).
There is EVERY evidence for it being clothing. At NO point does it actually touch her skin. It only touches the other parts of her headdress.Quote:
3-There is no evidence for it being a cloth.
PSSSSST! Most of her visible skin is IN SHADOW. When devoid of light, most things appear grey. However, some of her skin IS in direct light. This skin is normal fleshtone.Quote:
4-Edea is grey here like in the Ragnarok(I am not even talking about her clothes but about her body part of which can be seen).
No. Edea's hands were sharp and tapering. Propagator hands are blunt and do not taper. Besides, they're shorter, and joint in the wrong places.Quote:
5-Edeaīs hands resembles that of a Propagator.
Nevermind that she neither begins nor ends the FMV in any form resembling a propagator. Or the fact that she for some inexplicable reason has more hair as a 'propagator', hair being something they don't have.Quote:
Did it even occurred to you that Edea is undergoing a Propagator-human transformation?
I never said Edea was in her full Propagator form.
No... You say you did, but you've actually failed to do so.Quote:
I pretty much did this at the beggining.
I already gave three proofs for three different theories.
Oh, so you admit that these little flights of fancy are subjective, IE- not objective. I believe we have a tacit concession, folks.Quote:
It just happens they were all subjective so if you donīt wanna to accept them it is up to you.
I already made my job.
1-Propagatorīs heads were transparent.Theyr eyes are INSIDE their head.
2-Quote:
(look to my final comment on this post).
I know this was not the final comment but this is what I was referring to.Quote:
Did it even occurred to you that Edea is undergoing a Propagator-human transformation?
I never said Edea was in her full Propagator form.
:rolleyes2
3-I saw the video again.We canīt see it touching her skin nor we canīt see it touching her clothes.It is impossible to tell.
4-A makeup?That is an a-priori unfounded postulation.
5-.Quote:
Did it even occurred to you that Edea is undergoing a Propagator-human transformation?
I never said Edea was in her full Propagator form.
:rolleyes2
By the way,what is the meaning of the words "tamper" and Blunt?
Do you even thought were the word Seed came from?Quote:
id it ever occur to you that she has been married to Cid for quite sometime before this and that he would've found out by then and would've said something about that in the game? and the "humans were once propogators" thing is another one of your theories that has yet to be proven
Thatīs simple.
Propagatorīs heads resemble some kind of seed(wheat seeds,I think).
Anyway you canīt prove that Cid is not a shumi possessed by Doc Odine(while I have lots of evidence for it).
There is no problem in backing theories with theories as long as fhe final ones are backed up by evidence.
Ever heard of transitional forms?Quote:
Nevermind that she neither begins nor ends the FMV in any form resembling a propagator. Or the fact that she for some inexplicable reason has more hair as a 'propagator', hair being something they don't have.
1-Edea transforms mouth and foot first(what we donīt see).
2-Edea transforms hair(donīt see also).
3-Transforms hands a little(donīt see).
3-Transforms head making hair short(what we see).
FE, you cannot use theories as proof if they have not been declared true or infalsifiable. You have no evidence of Cid being possessed, Edea does use make-up to make her skin less bright(the make-up they use on actors and actresses so their skin doesn't glare up on the screen), the propogator heads are not transparent(if one part of their body is transparent than the rest of it is, which it's not and our eyes are inside of our head as well FE), no that is not subjective since you can prove this through the game by looking at the tip of their head in the front(most ppl would call it rounded in the real world), we do see the red visor protruding from her headdress and then see it go shrink back in(it does not touch her skin becuase it is not a part of her, but we can see it go back into her head piece),already answered your #4, don't you roll your eyes at me when I have already made a counter point to that.
the word blunt means not sharp; dull.
their head do resemble seeds but that is irrelevant. why would propogators even say that their heads look like seeds? and why would they use that for a reason of the making of the name for the SeeD. also, they are not called seed, they are called See-D(the name of the letter D for the last part of the pronunciation).
You also have no proof of her transforming. In the game we see Edea(or matron) in a full human form before this even happens(the orphanage flashbacks), and don't start telling me that was a disguise. Besides, you say we only see one of the transitions for the transformation. We have counter-argued that and you can't say ashe transforms if you only see one phase. that would be ridiculous.
Heero already addressed this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
Which you have yet to prove.Quote:
2-I know this was not the final comment but this is what I was referring to.
:rolleyes2
No. It's rather easy to tell, we do see it touching her clothing, and the curvature and hollow interior means that it does not touch her skin, nor does it contain anything.Quote:
3-I saw the video again.We canīt see it touching her skin nor we canīt see it touching her clothes.It is impossible to tell.
The fact that YOU are saying this just makes me want to hurt something. Firstly because THAT'S WHAT MOST OF YOUR STUFF IS, and secondly, because it's not. Do you even look up the meaning of the words you use?Quote:
4-A makeup?That is an a-priori unfounded postulation.
In any case, her skin appears grey because of the reduced light values. It is fleshtone where light strikes it.
Did it ever occur to you that Squall is a Moomba?Quote:
5-.
:rolleyes2
TAPER. And it means to grow thinner along a length. Blunt means not sharp.Quote:
By the way,what is the meaning of the words "tamper" and Blunt?
NOOOOO... The word comes from a temporal paradox when Squall told Edea what SeeDs were, and then she and Cid started SeeD, raising Squall as one, etc.Quote:
Do you even thought were the word Seed came from?
Thatīs simple.
Propagatorīs heads resemble some kind of seed(wheat seeds,I think).
Firstly, we NEVER need to prove a negative assertion. It wins by default unless the positive assertion can front the enough evidence. Secondly, no you don't have lots of evidence for it. You have EXACTLY ONE LINE of evidence, which you ignore the meaning of and rewrite into a no limits transformation ability for the shumi.Quote:
Anyway you canīt prove that Cid is not a shumi possessed by Doc Odine(while I have lots of evidence for it).
Incorrect. While you can base a theory on an ACCEPTED theory, this new theory must ALSO have evidence to support its position. You're attempting to support a theory with completely inevidenced, horrifically tenuous postulates.Quote:
There is no problem in backing theories with theories as long as fhe final ones are backed up by evidence.
Basically, your theory rests on the idea that Edea was transforming, when the FMV does not show anything of the sort (the visor, as mentioned, is NOT part of her body), when she was human before and after the scene, and that she decided to grow and then retract several feet of hair for no good reason. Oh, and that she was a Propagator before this transformation when we actually see her as a human before the scene, making any transformation totally redundant.Quote:
Ever heard of transitional forms?
1-Edea transforms mouth and foot first(what we donīt see).
2-Edea transforms hair(donīt see also).
3-Transforms hands a little(donīt see).
3-Transforms head making hair short(what we see).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
You have no proof of these other forms, throught the game Edea is shown as a human and all of your proof is being drawn off of one short FMV which only shows her headdress being retracted so that the people can see her face. There is nowhere you could possibly get the idea for the other transformation forms other than just making them up.
[QUOTE1]-Propagatorīs heads were transparent.Theyr eyes are INSIDE their head.
][/QUOTE]
By inside,I mean deep inside,not at the surface.Since we can see them we conclude it is transparent.
You call that spiral thing a cloth?Quote:
No. It's rather easy to tell, we do see it touching her clothing, and the curvature and hollow interior means that it does not touch her skin, nor does it contain anything.
Canīt it be part of Edeaīs body as well as the horns?
That was not the evidence I was referring about.Quote:
Firstly, we NEVER need to prove a negative assertion. It wins by default unless the positive assertion can front the enough evidence. Secondly, no you don't have lots of evidence for it. You have EXACTLY ONE LINE of evidence, which you ignore the meaning of and rewrite into a no limits transformation ability for the shumi.
But donīt worry,I will not change subject without give my best evidence to this one.
Thatīs what I said.Quote:
Incorrect. While you can base a theory on an ACCEPTED theory, this new theory must ALSO have evidence to support its position.
I donīt wanna to proof anything with this.Quote:
You have no proof of these other forms, throught the game Edea is shown as a human and all of your proof is being drawn off of one short FMV which only shows her headdress being retracted so that the people can see her face. There is nowhere you could possibly get the idea for the other transformation forms other than just making them up.
I am just posting possible alternatives which explain why the heads and hands are SIMILAR although not equal.
It thus refute the concept that if they are not tottaly equal they are not the same thing.
Itīs not like if she is transforming for the first time.She can perform transformations many times.Quote:
the game we see Edea(or matron) in a full human form before this even happens(the orphanage flashbacks)
Guys,the fact that Edeaīs head and hand were SIMILAR to that of a Propagator donīt tell you much already?
Thatīs the best evidence I can give for the characters being Propagators.
FE, how about you argue against more than one thing is my response. The fingers are long due to Ulti possessing her, that is all and that is the reason. Also, if she was a prop then she could only transform once since you say that humans were from propogators. Who said their eyes were deep inside of them, where is your proof? In every screenshot there is no good image that is close enough to show how deep the eyes are embedded. Also, I have more on thye transparency thing on my post before. READ IT!
Burden of proof to show that they are deep inside. They do not appear so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
No, I call it clothing. And yes, there is a bizarre off chance that Edea has had it grafted onto her body or grown via magical corruption, but such an assumption flies in the face of the far more parsimonious view that it is attached to her skullcap, not her skull.Quote:
You call that spiral thing a cloth?
Canīt it be part of Edeaīs body as well as the horns?
I look forward to this evidence when we make it that far, then.Quote:
That was not the evidence I was referring about.
But donīt worry,I will not change subject without give my best evidence to this one.
Not quite, but I'll let the slipup slide since you've mentioned previously that this is not your first language.Quote:
Thatīs what I said.
They're not all that similar, though. To be honest, Edea in a headdress looks more like a Red Chocobo than a propagator.Quote:
I donīt wanna to proof anything with this.
I am just posting possible alternatives which explain why the heads and hands are SIMILAR although not equal.
Hasty generalization fallacy, and even then that would only be if you could prove all this to be true.Quote:
It thus refute the concept that if they are not tottaly equal they are not the same thing.
But why? No, seriousy, what does it benefit her to waste energy in transformation?Quote:
Itīs not like if she is transforming for the first time.She can perform transformations many times.
The only similarity is length. All other aspects, including proportion (the joints are far, far too soon along the total finger) are entirely incorrect, and the length can easily be explained by having needlessly long nails.Quote:
Guys,the fact that Edeaīs head and hand were SIMILAR to that of a Propagator donīt tell you much already?
And it's not enough to prove it, however.Quote:
Thatīs the best evidence I can give for the characters being Propagators.
Meanwhile, I do have something to say- If the characters are the Propagators, then why do the propagators attack 'themselves' and why don't the other characters die via paradox by killing themselves?
Agree, even so,if the Propagators kill Rinoa and Squall, then they would be destroying themselves, and in other way Rinoa and Squall destroy them, they would destroy the team, including Rinoa and Squall, so they could'nt destroy themselves, then creating a complex paradox ending where anyone could destroy their other "selves".Quote:
If the characters are the Propagators, then why do the propagators attack 'themselves' and why don't the other characters die via paradox by killing themselves?
So my questions are:
If Propagator are the characters past form, then why the characters can kill the Propagators?
If the characters are the Propagators past form, then why the Propagators can kill the characters?
these are my own answers
You have played Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, or maybe watched "Time's Machine" movie or read the novel? there explains all this crap over and over again, but I'll make my own theory (sorry theories's haters)
A person cannot kill himself in the past, because he would end existing, then in the future wouldn't be a himself to destroy his past himself, so the first thing then would never happen really, then there would be a complex paradox.
There could be the parallel universe, but here, if you kill yourself in past, your universe would end, the history taking another path, where there is not another you to kill your past, destroying that path too, also with all other paths, creating the end of all the times.
(I had to take a little time to understand myself, if you cannot understand too, just take your time)
Theres also the history of the original FF, where the legend the young ones hear where really themselves, but here they DIDN'T mess with his own lifes.
You cannot really change your past, but if you do, then you would already remember it :choc:
Just so you know, we are not theory haters. We just disprove theories that we know through knowledge of the said topic of the theory are wrong. And as for your theory, it makes a lot of sense.
This doesn't make sense. Either you can change your past or you can't. There's no such thing as "not really" changing the past. And the statement about remembering changing the past makes no sense either, unless you mean that they remember AFTER they've actually changed it.Quote:
You cannot really change your past, but if you do, then you would already remember it
Further, what exactly is Future saying. Is he saying that the Propagators are Squall, Rinoa etc. in the past, or is he saying that the Propagators are Squall, Rinoa etc. in the future. Because those two questions you asked said both, so it's a bit confusing to understand what question you're actually answering (although you didn't actually answer either, no offense meant). This is the breakdown on both situations though:
1) If the Propagator's are the party in the past, then killing them is not possible. The only way it could work is if you assumed that alternate universes are at play in FF8. Then whoever did the time travelling (ie. the Propagator's arriving from the past, or Squall and Co from future), they came from an alternate universe, so no paradox arises.
However, alternate universes are highly implausible in FF8, as there is absolutely nothing indicating they exist, making it far more plausible that you simply cannot change the past, like Ellone says.
So basically, if Future is saying that the Propagaotrs are younger versions of Squall and Co, he'll have to be assuming alternate dimensions, thus weakening the strength of his 'theories'.
2) If the Propagators are Squall and Co in the future, then nothing happens if the Propagators are killed. As for the Propagators killing Squall and Rinoa, that doesn't ever happen, so it doesn't matter if a paradox would arise.
No, the past future thing was just a theory that shadowcrono thought up. It has nothing to do with the propogators or even the discussion at hand. Just drop it and read some of the posts before.
What I tried to tell there was "If you change your own past, making a relation with yourself, then you would remember it" also "you cannot change an already made past", and for that of the Propagator could be from other dimensions, then we would be messing to much with a thing we already know "FF VIII is about past, present, and future, not from relationships through parallel universes"Quote:
This doesn't make sense. Either you can change your past or you can't. There's no such thing as "not really" changing the past. And the statement about remembering changing the past makes no sense either, unless you mean that they remember AFTER they've actually changed it.
:), I was talking of other people, not you, sorry if I confused youQuote:
Just so you know, we are not theory haters. We just disprove theories that we know through knowledge of the said topic of the theory are wrong. And as for your theory, it makes a lot of sense.
Oh...i thought you were making a general statement.
This thread makes me feel all tingly inside. Tee hee. Oh is there any real proof to make me believe this FE or is this another addition to the downfall of society
Well, read the Topic's title, now imagine around 4 plot holes still not proveen, plus one guy trying to build his own FFVIII world, plus a great group trying to break that confusing plotholes and save player's mind, and what do you got?...
Addition to downfall of society
Now it makes so much sense
The Propagators are from a time before the events on the orphanage.
People think they are killed when they kill two of the same color consecutively but that is not the case.A good observer can see their eyes blinking.
And it seems they supposedly breed on the ship again after being exterminated.
Counter argument debunked
Personal attacks will absolutely NOT be tolerated. If I see much more of this, you will be banned.
~Void.
What are you talkin about there never was an argument
PROVE IT!!!Quote:
The Propagators are from a time before the events on the orphanage.
And if they are, then if the team kills them, and they really are the past form of the characters, then there would be a Paradox, like I already say in my "Time Change Theory"Quote:
The Propagators are from a time before the events on the orphanage.
First of all if the propagator's eyes are inside their heads the way you say then they can't blink. unless you mean blink as in flash. if this is true then post a screen shot because no one else has ever seen what you are talking about. Plus you have no ingame reference of them ever breeding in the ship after killiing all of them so that is comepletly false.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
Uhh... Moderator, I keep this here for one reason. I did not copy past this. It was autoselected by the quote tag. Basically, this exists as a note that you may wish to correct this problem, since I don't know who to contact about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
Addendum: Ah, now I see how it works. But you can still see it via quoting the post, so it might be better just to delete it.
Though one point to Future. I again repeat that we do not have to prove you wrong. YOU have to prove yourself right.
Burden of proof. Show that this is so.Quote:
The Propagators are from a time before the events on the orphanage.
They'd have to be good. Propagators don't sit around once you kill them.Quote:
People think they are killed when they kill two of the same color consecutively but that is not the case.A good observer can see their eyes blinking.
REALLY? I don't recall ever having to smack them for infesting the head. Burden of proof that they reproduce.Quote:
And it seems they supposedly breed on the ship again after being exterminated.
No, sir, it wasn't.Quote:
Counter argument debunked
You have NOTHING to suggest that Propagators aren't random aliens. I know you point to the Edea FMV, but she doesn't look anything like a propagator in it.
I think he is referring to the note left by the Ragnarok's former inhabitants. They say that they thought they had wiped them out previously, and left the instructions on how to kill them in case the infestation started again. However, there is no proof that they did actually succeed in wiping them all out, nor any proof that they reproduced. Think about it. Sure, the crew was able to leave the note, but they weren't able to get back to Earth. They probably killed most of them, but were finally overpowered by the last ones, who you later have to fight when you board the ship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryushikaze
They say"In case they breed again",not "the ones left".
These guys know they can breed again.To this argument you can add the fact that the Propagators eyes flash and voila.
:s I'm so confused I always thought that the date of ff would be more like probably 10 000 year... but the O should be smth like that, although we can't forget that being a different world maybe it has also different time, so when it's the 16th century there they are more advanced than us!
Future, you still have the problem that they never come back after you kill them, meaning that you now need to show that Squall and Rinoa didn't wipe out the infestation.
And you need to prove the eye flashing.
Go play the game to see the eye flashing.I am not saying they appear when they are all defeated.I am saying the eyes flash when you kill two couples by the same color(without killing them all).
See post 781,782.Quote:
Future, you still have the problem that they never come back after you kill them, meaning that you now need to show that Squall and Rinoa didn't wipe out the infestation.
The very fact that bodies disappear donīt prove they are dead.
That is for game beauty purposes.
EDIT
FROM ANOTHER THREAD
The Garden is a remodelation of DSRC after the flood dried and it get attached to the clock tower and master room of Ultiīs Castle (as known as excavation site).Quote:
I'm just really curious when Balamb Garden actually time traveled.
Definition: the hypothetical process of moving between past and future; also written time-travel
Elleone can send your mind/spirit back through time, and in the future Dr Odines Junction Elleone machince can send Ultimecia (and its said shes the only one that could handle it). But just humor me with when the gigantic garden which Cid and Norg created jumped through the fabric of time??? and I can fly the garden for 13 hours in the game if I wanted so apparently the beast has plenty of gas(or steam units, whatever you wanna call it) to go around
Of course at this time Ulti had already made some changes on her castle.
We know that it is possible to refill the gas tank somehow from what we learn on DSRC.
But then the door unlocking sequence has to be done again.
This by itself is strange and indicates DSRC can time travel.
By the way,it is RSP (reserve steam pressure).Not reserve steam points.Sorry for that mistake.
Let me explain more.The Garden has some kind of GPS system.It was programmed to time-travel when it pass through certain regions.Of
course no one besides Odine (and probably Laguna) knows how to manually time-travel Garden.
Of course,it goes back to Ultiīs castle.The CLOCK TOWER was a primitive version of a time-machine.Quote:
Actually, the flying system the Garden has was made before the creation of the Garden, maybe relationed to Centra people
Aside of this, the Garden didn't go through time, it stayed in the team's time, and the part where Seifer, Fujin and Raijin see the Garden, is after time restoration, it really happens in present.
The GPS system is also there.The big clock is a giant map.
The clocks central gauge represents FH.One of the pointers points toward Esthar(this one I donīt understand) and the other pointīs towards Edeaīs house.
I've played it lots of times, and I've never seen the eye flashing. Could you give a specific point that we should look at to note this imaginary activity?Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
Tell me, if there were Propagator survivors, where on that little ship are they hiding so well from both the team and the CC members?Quote:
The very fact that bodies disappear donīt prove they are dead.
That is for game beauty purposes.
Um, prove this, please. In fact, give any evidence at all supporting this idea.Quote:
The Garden is a remodelation of DSRC after the flood dried and it get attached to the clock tower and master room of Ultiīs Castle (as known as excavation site).
Of course at this time Ulti had already made some changes on her castle.
We know that it is possible to refill the gas tank somehow from what we learn on DSRC.
But then the door unlocking sequence has to be done again.
This by itself is strange and indicates DSRC can time travel.
By the way,it is RSP (reserve steam pressure).Not reserve steam points.Sorry for that mistake.
Let me explain more.The Garden has some kind of GPS system.It was programmed to time-travel when it pass through certain regions.Of
course no one besides Odine (and probably Laguna) knows how to manually time-travel Garden.
Of course,it goes back to Ultiīs castle.The CLOCK TOWER was a primitive version of a time-machine.
The GPS system is also there.The big clock is a giant map.
The clocks central gauge represents FH.One of the pointers points toward Esthar(this one I donīt understand) and the other pointīs towards Edeaīs house.
Future Esthar, these theories you explain are indeed empressive, but is there more proof or explantions?
FE, you are trying to tell us that the place where Garden was build, is a part of Ultimecias castle?
I remember a post where someone talks about the orphanage, In past is a complete, cute place, in present is a damaged place, and you then talk about the place where Ultimecia's castle is attached... If I'm right, there was a huge chain attached to ground and to the castle, if the castle is from the past, then wouldn't one part of the chain still in the ground, or in the surroundings of the orphanage?
[sarcasm]The chain was metaphorical. It was binding the castle to that time period.[/sarcasm]Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowcrono
Good one :DQuote:
[sarcasm]The chain was metaphorical. It was binding the castle to that time period.[/sarcasm]
ok, so balamb garden has a time machine as FE says, but what about Galbadia and Trabia, perhpas Galbadia does but that is the most modern yet it was still able to fly. Trabia on the other hand did not fly away from the missles and got blown up. But Trabia was built in the mountains thus should be ancient, further moer have the flying controls, but maybe it was TOO OLD, and i think we would all agree that Balamb Garden is in the middle of Trabia and Galbadia having ancinet and modern technoolgy.
Most nonsensical argument ever.Quote:
I remember a post where someone talks about the orphanage, In past is a complete, cute place, in present is a damaged place, and you then talk about the place where Ultimecia's castle is attached... If I'm right, there was a huge chain attached to ground and to the castle, if the castle is from the past, then wouldn't one part of the chain still in the ground, or in the surroundings of the orphanage?
I thought Ulti would made the chain disappear for the purpose of not letting traces back for the sake of the Estharians.
Did you ever saw the James Bond film in which there is an evil journalist?
Compare this guy to Doctor Odine and many doors will be opened for you to understand FF8īs secrets.
On the same place lying on the ground pretending to be dead.Quote:
Tell me, if there were Propagator survivors, where on that little ship are they hiding so well from both the team and the CC members?
Come on, Estharians sake? Ultimecia only cared for herself!Quote:
Most nonsensical argument ever.
I thought Ulti would made the chain disappear for the purpose of not letting traces back for the sake of the Estharians.
Did you ever saw the James Bond film in which there is an evil journalist?
Compare this guy to Doctor Odine and many doors will be opened for you to understand FF8īs secrets.
I leave, I'm sick of this, I don't care I you want your own FF VIII world, but I will say something first:
We the players play the videogames for a joyfull moment (I do, I really don't care for others), we play the games to enjoy the characters, the history, the music, the gaming experience over all.
Every one builds his own videogame world, and have our own ideas of what really means a game, but I don't try to take others to my world, I just enjoy it.
Live your world, let me die in mine
Skyblade, Ryushikaze, Heero, see you in others threads.
I'm still waiting for thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
Maybe its all more compicated though, maybe odine "time traveled" with Laguana to the future and Odine got Ultimecia pregnant and she gave birth to Edea, Kiros, and Ward but the Space men tried to take them away so they went back to the past and dropped them all off in hopes that Ulti could reembody hereself in her daughter in hopes that they could get Ellone to take them all back to the past to have pancakes. This is the true story of FF8. I will follow the trend here of providing ZERO evidence from the game and tell you all that this is right
I have no Zero evidence.I have lots of it.
If I had none I would not post it.
Your evidence has been only theories you have made yourself and pieces of information that is overly examined(you have a different meaning for it than the game actually has) and out of context. Many ppl here are getting tired of you not giving the evidence that you are obliged to give. You are sending bits of evidence that is not fully reasonable and are falsifiable through in-game evidence that we supply. FE, i would think over your strategy about this if I were you, but I'm not and it is your decision to do whatever.
Wrong. What you have is a big, lengthy explanation that tells us how your theory could be possible (a lot of it makes no sense, but that doesn't matter right now). Show us one thing in the game that actually indicates at all that your theory is true. Not possible, but actually true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
The picture of Edea,which looks like a Propagator,Zellīs picture inside Squall,the year gravings on Raineīs tomb,etc...
What have been happening is a little like this-
"Future Esthar,Show us that Fujin was on Galbadia Garden.There is no basis for that"
Future Esthar-Here it is.The screenshot were she asks about Seifer and Squall says he was dead.
"That is Ulti,not Fujin"
F.E-No,it is Fujin"
The only difference to this story is that I posted screenshots with "hard to note" details.
Quote:
a lot of it makes no sense
It is impossible to make sence of my theories when one considers them independently.
To make sence of them a knowledge of the overall theory picture is needed.
And you seemed unable to do that.
No FE, now you are downgrading us. I will not tolerate that. You say that we have to look at your evidence independently, but you can't do that. If you look at it independently then you are seeing something that does not go with the game entirely. You are telling us to forget what the game says and to see what the evidence is without the knowledge of the game which is used to actually set the whole idea in the game. You can't look at it seperately. If you do then it is not looking at something that is included in the game. You need the knowledge in the game, all the information it tells you, to know what is fact and what is fiction and sir we have proven countless times that this evidence and these theories that you have been using and have stated true are in fact, fiction.
Also, your example of what is happening here is also a crock. Everyone knows that Fujin was on Galbadia Garden because you see her there many times. That is in-game proof. You, however, state things that, through in-game proof, are invalid, but you make it so hard on yourself that you give evidence that is very falsifiable. We do not have to do anything different, but it is you that needs to think things over and have a new approach on this.
The examining of evidence in isolation from context is not an examination of evidence at all.