You really don't know what are you talking about, do you? We don't hear about SL in FFVII for a reason. It is explained in DoC, play the game and you will know. It's not a plot-hole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charcoal
You really don't know what are you talking about, do you? We don't hear about SL in FFVII for a reason. It is explained in DoC, play the game and you will know. It's not a plot-hole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charcoal
I've played the game and the reason we don't hear about it in FFVII is because SE - who is milking the whole concept - want to add all kinds of stupid twists that has got nothing to do with FFVII, Deepground and Omega Weapon being another two examples.
SL was not mentioned in the original because it was not relevant at the time, besides it is a new concept by S-E, to further points of the series... as time passes people learn grow and obtain knowledge of their surroundings making new discoveries all the time, are you saying that these characters should not evolve and learn more about their world (or rather we learn more about their world conversely), that their science, technology, and understanding should be at a constant flatline in the evolutionary paradigm, do we not now know things that humans did not know 20, 30, 50, even 100 years ago? what you're saying is ludacrise, for if they stay at an evolutionary plateau then the story dies, and that is not what the fans want, no one (normaly no one) want's their favorite story to end and if it does they almost always want another story set in that same world possibly even with the characters they know and love... just because it wasn't explained in the past does not make it irrelavant in the present, if that was the case humanity would have ceased to exist aeons ago...
Maybe Charcoal expects our random collection of heroes in the original game to have complete knowledge about the world they live in.
It isn't (necessarily) relevant now either, the prequels/sequels were never part of FFVII in the first place. This is only something they've made up along the way and it causes plot holes. It is nothing but annoying, adding new characters and twists just to sell.
Is it just me here who can see that adding new characters and concepts into an already finished story is completely unnecessarily? Does no one else realize that SE is just using the opportunity here? Fine, they're supposed to make money that's their whole point, FFVII was made for that reason too, but haven't anyone noticed that these spin-offs are just here in order to milk the whole concept? I've said that several times now, but nobody seem to notice. I'll repeat another thing that seems to have passed people by here:
There is a HUGE gap between the release of FFVII and The Compilation.
SL is not there to further anything. SL is there to add some depth into a dull add-on based on FFVII fans' opinions (regarding Vincent in this case). Nothing in The Compilation is further explained it's being expanded but also altered.
No I don't. Us who play the game will eventually be able to understand most of it though, as long as you avoid certain obstacles.Quote:
Maybe Charcoal expects our random collection of heroes in the original game to have complete knowledge about the world they live in.
sure, you have the right to ignore the compilation outside of the Meteorfall chapter if you wish, as much as i have the right to ignore the law and break into someone's house (not advocating Burglary here), but you can not deny that which is canon when talking with others about the overall story, when someone mentions something out of the compilation you can't say it didn't exist just because you choose to ignore it, fact is only S-E decides what is canon, you can choose to ignore it if you wish, but ignoring it will not make it go away, and all your trite reasoning can not change it... the compilation is a product of supply and demand, fans demanded more of the FF VII Universe and S-E graciousely supplied it, they're trying to entertain you and you're like the guy that questions the commedian on every angel of the joke thus killing said joke. thus ruining the entertainment value by being over-analytical, sure S-E is making a fortune off of FF VII right now, hell they made a fortune off of the FF Series alone before VII, but wait that's what companies do, they make money off of other people, wow what a concept... as for the FF VII Universe being expanded and altered, that's the nature of an expanded universe, Knights of the Old Republic is part of the Star Wars Expanded Universe, but it is no less canon due to it not being part of the original trillogy, it is valid within the SW Timeline, just as the compilation is valid within the FF VII Timeline...
You seem to have forgotten one thing, I don't say The Compilation isn't canon, I'm just saying there are two versions of FFVII and so I can ignore The Compilation because when considered alongside the 1997 FFVII it can't possibly be canon. Yes you're right about it not going away if I do that, but I don't say it does disappear either. I say we can choose between two versions, get it? That does NOT make The Compilation go away, it means it's an alternative.
Like I mentioned earlier in the topic, I keep repeating myself because something always is forgotten. Maybe I've handled this wrong. I might have scattered my arguments too much. If there is any more confusion I'll try to collect all my arguments and present them as tidy as possible, maybe that'll clear some things up.
there isn't 2 versions, it's not possible for there to be unless you ignore the compilation and thus deny it's existance, but then that would make it only 1 version again, so that won't work, maybe if there was another game that was named FF VII but was not made by Square or S-E and not directly linked to the FF VII Compilation (S-E would have a field day in the courtroom over that one), then your argument about 2 stories existing may be valid but as it stands it is not... and i never forgot your arguments i just omit them because you keep contradicting yourself, your underlined statement above is a contradiction of itself (it's canon but against the original it can't be canon... contradiction much?)... in order for FF VII (1997) and the rest of the compilation to be 2 seperate stories would imply that all the compilation minus the 1997 game, and the original 1997 game itself to have nothing in common with each other, but as i see it the original game and the compilation all take place in the world of FF VII, they include the same locations, the same people, the same history, the same technology (less Mako and more Oil and other fuels now though), the only differance is that there is more of it (the FF VII Universe) now than there was in 1997... now you are entitled to ignore it but as long as you do your opinion on the mater of the FF VII Universe will always be invalid, when it comes to conversation with those that accept it for what it is and don't try to over-analyze it, and disect the pieces of the story... i've been playing the MYST series of games and in it the word D'Ni is pronounced in about six different ways, which one is right? who cares, the games were fun anyway, and that's the stance i take on all games if you pre-occupy yourself with all the little inconsitancies then you will go mad or just lose all interest in the game out of disgust because it's not what you remembered anymore, just go with the flow and accept the compilation for what it is entertainment; not religion, science, or mathmatics, it does NOT have to be absolute, for those few nitpickers out there out to find every little inconsitancy they can, leave that to the rabbid simpsons fans, they're good at telling people all the inconsitancies within the series, doesn't make them right though, Matt Groening is the one that makes that call...
Charcoal, just because Stagnant Lifestream was not stated in FF7, its existence ISN'T a plot hole. You keep bandying these terms about. Do you really understand what they mean?
I mean, by your terms, Naboo is a plot hole, because no one in eps IV-VI of Star Wars mentioned it.
Again, though I mention that there is only one version of FF7. The official version. In this case, official = canon. If the creators make an explicit or implicit change to FF7, the change is official and now stands.
There is only one canon.
You are advocating fanon. This is fine and well, except for the fact that you do not appear to comprend that your fanon does not mean there are two canons.
Again I'll bring up an old argument, Square Enix has never denied there being two versions of Final Fantasy VII and so the possibility is there. Its not official (yet?) though, so people have to make up their own opinion whether to regard The Compilation canon or not atm.
Some of you don't seem to fully understand what I mean by "two versions" of FFVII, perhaps this will clear that up:
You don't have to deny its existence, as I said you can consider it an alternative. Two versions mean two storylines. In one of them, The Compilation don't exist, adn yes in a way that erase it, but not from the now official FFVII.
Square Enix should create a remake with no Compilation material whatsoever. This would efficently erase all unnecessarily retcon and make The Compilation an alternative like suggested, they would even make a dime along the way too. See, the possibility is there :) .
I find it very obvious that SL is only there to add some depth into Dirge of Cerberus, a game with a story adapted what (apperantly) most people wish for. Unfortunately this means changes to both the original characters and storyline based on the common opinion around Vincent. This shows in the terrible-medicore gameplay too. The game got terrible critics the first time around and SE even had to improve it for its American release.Quote:
Charcoal, just because Stagnant Lifestream was not stated in FF7, its existence ISN'T a plot hole. You keep bandying these terms about. Do you really understand what they mean?
So SL is a plot hole when considerd alongside the original storyline because there is no SL there. If you use your imagination enough then it can be there yes, same case with Deepground. However, how come Bugenhagen never mention this SL? How come we never heard anything of Deepground in the original game? Yes, both Deepground and SL are there to add more depth into a fan adapted story, nothing more.
Btw, since I don't know much of Star Wars I don't know how that series handle the apperant retcon.
i figured it out he's an old school rabbid FFVII Fanboy (just like the jaded old school purists out there) that is pissed because his beloved story got changed and expanded upon, thus meaning he had to spend money on other media that wasn't an RPG or direct playable RPG sequel and thus decides to ignore the compilation in favor of the old story, i believe this is where his 2 story theory stems from, just like the rabid Star Wars fans that choose to ignore anything that wasn't in eps 4-6... well, that's all well and good (or not so good when trying to convince others that they have no right to be entertained by said new media) but once again when it comes to conversation with others about the story you can not ommit what is there for the rest of the word just because you choose to ignore it for yourself, just because you choose to ignore it does not make your choice the right one, just mearly your choice, all i'm saying here is in conversations with others since you choose to ignore the compilation, you will never be right except on matters dealing with the Meteorfall portion of the story, it's like a mathamatician that only knows subtraction because he chooses to ignore all other mathamatic formulae, what good is he, the answer is simple he's not very usefull because he chose to ignore everything but one aspect, in short you're only right in this matter within your head, those of us still anchored in reality will continue to enjoy our entertainment while those few who try to tear it appart will find no joy in anything else but the ruining of said entertainment for others, which is what i think your true mission here is, truly sad, though i feel i should have no pitty for such a convoluted soul full of delusion, so your trying to ruin the story for others will not work on me, i'm above that, and thus this reply will go on ignored because it advocates enjoyment as opposed to over-dissection of the media... honestly if you can't enjoy it because you're pre-occupied with the little differances then you should just leave the FF VII License alone and find another game to worship, if you think they are slaughtering the story to make a quick buck (which coincidentaly is their job, to make money) then don't buy the media, you have the choice, don't read it, don't watch it, don't play it, don't buy it, but above all else don't say your oppinion is right, when you choose to ignore the bulk of the story, choosing to ignore the Compilation does not make it an alternative story, unless of course we decid to jump to a differant dimension where the compilation does not exist then there would be 2 stories but only for those that can dimension shift, which last i checked was impossible, so unless you have access to 2 different realities then the compilation does indeed fall into just one singular story along with the Meteorfall chapter...
i honestly think this guy is trolling now, i mean who hasn't heard of Star Wars or never even seen at least one of the moveis...
I don't say you have to believe me, I say make up your own opinion. If you think I'm wrong then fine, that's your opinion. You can't prove me wrong and I can't prove myself right, as there is no proof on either side of the case. That's why you have to make up your own opinion, it depends on how you see it.
And btw, I know what Star Wars is and I've seen one of the movies. I just don't have any interest in it and so I don't know much about it.
wow no interest in Star Wars, then you've missed a lot and i mean a lot of wonderfull SW referances throughout the FF Series of games as it is the most used pop culture referance in the series... anyway while i was in the shower a minute ago i thaught more about the idea of not accepting the compilation and how those principles would apply to all media, now if everything after the original is just filler junk to sell the product and not valid within the line of the story then that would make every television show, book series, and movie sagas completely pointless since everything after the pilot, first book, or first movie that was not mentioned in those said firsts are invalid junk filler to sell product and have little to no bearing on the overall story, since you don't like SW i'll referance Star Trek, in the original series episode Trouble With Tribbles, by your logic (this is referancing your logic on SL and why you think it's invalid) the tribbles should not exist since they were not in or mentioned in the pilot episode, but then by the same logic, no other planet or species encountered after the pilot episode should not be there due to them not being in or mentioned in the pilot episode... now my point is simply because it was not mentioned in the original does not make it any less valid, it is the nature of entertainment media to grow, add, and expand upon their products in order to keep the fans entertained, sorry but a stagnant product simply does not sell... and i refuse to form an opinion when faced with facts, fact and opinion are completely opposed to one another... on another matter S-E does not have to explicitly say that the compilation is not an alternate telling, it's implied by common knowledge that it is infact part of the story, if it was not they would have done like the creators of Gundam Wing and post a notice on their website and merchandise saying "this is an alternate telling of the story you already know", they don't have to tell you it is not but normaly they do tell you if it is an alternate telling... just because S-E did not say "this is not an alternate telling" does not mean that it is or even could be, just face that what is is and all your ignoring of the compilation will not change it, your voice will not be the one that makes S-E come out and say yeah it's not directly linked, when the packaging says it is, and the timeline poster in the DoC Strategy Guide says they fall in the same timeline as well, thus meaning it's all one story and not intended to be told as an alternate telling of the original Meteorfall chapter... as for you fear of them having to change things IF (thats the hugest if in existance) they ever did a remake of Meteorfall to include stuff like SL and the new orginizations, they will not because it was not relavent in that part of the story, it's only relevant later after the threat of Meteor is over, 3 years later to be exact, that's good enough time for new orginizations to crop up, and new discoveries to be made, re-making VII does not have to include putting AC and DoC (and the other canon provided by S-E) on the same disc as the Meteorfall Chapter...
Oh, is that so? Well then, can't you explain to me how its possible that AVALANCHE - started by Barret in the original game, suddenly turns out to have been a huge organisation a couple years back in the FFVII timeline? Can that be canon without using the term retcon - no it can't. Can SE still implement referances to Before Crisis in a remake - yes they can.
In response to what you said regarding other media, it isn't the same. Before Crisis came years after the original and brought along retcon. Star Wars, Star Trek, they may all have retcon in them but some stories got to be able to handle it better then FFVII did, correct? FFVII has only become retcon due to milking; Star Wars etc. may actually have suited an expanded universe.
I'll put up an example - the Harry Potter books (yeah I read them, sue me). Seven books are planned and so I don't ignore every book exept for the first one, despite your example suggesting you believe me to have that kind of perspective. If another three books showed up years after the original ones though, with retcon in them, of course some people would want to have two versions. And if J.K Rowling then said "forget the original Harry Potter, it's the three new books that really count" then of course we would have to stick with that. Note that if she didn't say anything like that though, that leave us with the possibility of two versions, and so some of us would hope for something restoring the Harry Potter saga back to its original state. Much the same way I look upon a potential FFVII remake.
so you're saying FF VII isn't suited for expansion, sure it's not an entire galaxy like SW & ST, but we as humans should know a lot can happen on one planet, and that's what the majority of fans want, is more of the world of FF VII and everything on it, but to give us more S-E has to make more, much to the disdain of those opposed, which is the minority, S-E isn't gonna give up on the FF VII world, just because a few people aren't happy with it, that loses proffit, so they're gonna cater to the fans that want more, the ones willing to pay for it, those that love the VII world enough not to disect it into it's smallest parts but accept it as a larger piece of entertainment, and from the numbers many of us are entertained... as for Barret, if you played through the Cosmo Canyon part, Barret talks around the fire of how he formed Avalanche there several years before Meteorfall and from the way he talks about it and the way Shin-Ra reports it ingame on the T.V.s and stuff Avalanche is a large orginization, but due to limited space on the CD-ROM format they couldn't animate in every member of Avalanche, heck why do you think towns seem empty except for the few ppl you can talk to in RPG's, the programers are not gonna animate streets full of people, it would seriousely slow the game down with some hella bad lag (yes it can happen in offline games, happened often in older games on carts) it's up to the player to assume the streets are full of people and the only ones the players see are the ones that can be interacted with, that's prolly why they didn't show more members of Avalanche than you needed to see, not to mention the members you do get to interact with are Barrets closest friends, it's implied throughout the Meteorfall chapter that Avalanche is a huge orginization...