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Sorry, did you read the whole post? I'm judging them on their entire faces. Can you really look at those 4 photos and say that they are all of the same person? Because, if they don't look the same, then it's going to be quite hard to prove Rinoa is Ultimecia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Hold on, you said different for a sec I read that as "same" and you where using that as proof. xD
Carry on :P
Nah, I only try prove things which have solid facts behind them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Probably, but I cannot imagine what was Enix thinking when they added his tattoos, surely they could be confusing? Enix has stated that Zell's tattoo is nothing special, anyways.Quote:
I personally think the tattoo thing is a coincidence. They probably gave Ultimecia tattoos to make her look evil, and they probably gave Zell tattoos to a) make him look cool and b) because they thought getting tattoos was a very Zell thing to do.
Several things? Not exactly. The guide only stated one thing (life span) which significantly kills the R=U theory but that's still not enough because they didn't explain more and they don't want to. Why? You tell me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
R=U is not heavily relied on the 'Oh no, their life span is still the same as a human' fact, anyways.
2) The FF8 game portrayed the story of FF8. The only thing it would have been game over is that if you fail the game. Is there proof that the world of FF8 wasn't fully compressed? There are so many things that have never displayed in the game, so yeah.
((( this is the important bit! )))
In the compressed world, Squall travelled to the past; saw his little self being and told Matron whatever the hell he wanted to say (the garden ideas, etc).
So listen, if voices (like that example of what he said to Matron) and figures (like that example of Squall seeing his little self being and Matron) can affect a timeline from between the past and the future. Then what about other things like merging? e.g. merging powers or bodies. This can boost significance to the Rinoa and Ultimecia relationship. Will that happen after the game? Maybe.
I'm still not sure about the human life span thing though, I can't believe in saying this but Albert Einstein once said that if you start travelling via a spaceship AT a very fast light speed from Earth to millions of light away and then go back to Earth, your life span may BE STILL the same as normal BUT the people left on the Earth have aged faster (dramatically) than you have.
Ultimecia has powers like this. When she starts a Time Compression, does it change the light speed? Probably, but will Ultimecia be affected by the changed speed? No? This means that Ultimecia has aged just like a normal person and went through so many generations due to her powers (time travel). What I'm saying is that the human life span concept isn't important in such situations, because with Ultimecia power, you will age 1 year older and the world will age like 1,000 years older.
This gets more ridiculous with each post.
Yes, and if you look at my post near the bottom of page 4 (the one with the pictures), there's another fact that kills the theory, i.e. they don't look alike. And, if they don't look alike, they aren't the same person. There is no way one can get around that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
First off, I do not believe R=U in the slightest. However, some of what I'm going to say is against the anti-R=U arguments, because they are rather lame.
1) A complete personality change means they aren't the same? What? The whole Idea of the R=U is that she does change over time. A complete personality flip can be a great trick to use when writing, so using that as a basis to disprove this theory is lame.
2) Over time people change, so not looking the same is hardly a good reason. To the extent of the differences between Rinoa and Ultimecia there is almost a solid argument however, but due to the time between FF VIII's beginning, and Ultimecias time, many things could have happened to change appearance, especially since somehow she survived that long.
The visual differences coupled with the Ultimania guide saying that sorceresses have a normal lifespan is a pretty strong argument. Ultimecia does not look much older than Rinoa. Even if Rinoa fell into a time hole (or anything you want to bring her into Ultimecia's time), at a normal rate of aging, such changes would not occur. Especially when their eyes are completely different colours!
And a complete personality switch can be used, but normally, the writer will build up this personality change without an event. Do you think any half-decent writer would write a story with a sunny, bubbly, optimistic character, who lives in the moment, and then, without any warning or build-up, turn her into the complete opposite: depressed, pessimistic, so afraid of losing somthing that she's to scared to live, a loner.
Regardless, the burden of proof is not on me. It is on those who are wanting to prove R=U. What I'll say is that there are 3 questions that must be addressed before one can believe R=U, and these must be addressed from material in the game, or related to the game (Ultimania).
1) If Rinoa is Ultimecia, why do they not look the same? (And to say that a lot of time has passed is not a reason, because then Rinoa would be old, grey and frail).
2) How can Rinoa be Ultimecia when Ultimecia lives many generations in the future, and Rinoa, even as a sorceress has a normal lifespan?
3) How did Rinoa's personality do a complete flip? (Again, one cannot say: "Oh, many things could have happened. This discussion is based on a game, and therefore, all evidence must come from the game).
As for appearance, as I said, any number of things could have happened. It is a somewhat solid argument, but hardly a concrete one like just about everything else that disproves it, like you're number 2.
As for a complete flip, look at how much time has passed. Under the assumption it was true, a lot ofwas bound to happen.
1) Squall dieing, as obviously he wasn't alive in the future, and Rinoa was. (Under the stupid assumtion it was true) so there was the loss of a loved one involved.
2) As directly stated in the game, the discrimination and hate of sorceresses, which Rinoa was. AFter living through all that Ultimecia has, the whole Wars and such, that is definately bound to change a person.
Again, I don't believe R=U, but in the cases of Appearance and Personality, they just seem like weak arguments to use against it, especially considering the other evidence that damns the theory.
I loathe the R=U theory and disagree with is wholeheartedly, but I can still answer a couple of the questions you pose there:)The Ultimania explains that prolonged use of dark magic can physically distort a person - it's the reason Adel was huge and off-colour. It's also why Edea had odd eyes, long fingers and veiny growths on her temples. Those disappeared after she lost her powers and Ultimecia's possession. So in theory, if Rinoa turned 'evil' she might end up looking a bit different.Quote:
Originally Posted by champagne supernova
A popular 'theory' is that she turned bitter after losing Squall, and perhaps forgot her past because of GF usage. According to Edea, having a knight helps to keep a sorceress honest and good or something. But except for Ultimecia being associated with the GF Griever, there's nothing that even remotely supports these hypotheses about Ultimecia.Quote:
And a complete personality switch can be used, but normally, the writer will build up this personality change without an event. Do you think any half-decent writer would write a story with a sunny, bubbly, optimistic character, who lives in the moment, and then, without any warning or build-up, turn her into the complete opposite: depressed, pessimistic, so afraid of losing somthing that she's to scared to live, a loner.
Maybe we should start a thread on why R <> U, using these questions! I wasn't aware of the effects of the DARK SIDE. But, using the example of evil Edea and good Edea, their faces are both the same shape. And Rinoa and Ultimecia's faces are not the same shape.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big DI loathe the R=U theory and disagree with is wholeheartedly, but I can still answer a couple of the questions you pose there:)The Ultimania explains that prolonged use of dark magic can physically distort a person - it's the reason Adel was huge and off-colour. It's also why Edea had odd eyes, long fingers and veiny growths on her temples. Those disappeared after she lost her powers and Ultimecia's possession. So in theory, if Rinoa turned 'evil' she might end up looking a bit different.Quote:
Originally Posted by champagne supernova
Exactly! And the GF Griever association is tenuous at best. From the game, it is more likely that Squall will not die of anything short of old age, seeing that he managed to defeat everything in his path, including TWO almighty sorceresses (Adel and Ultimecia).Quote:
A popular 'theory' is that she turned bitter after losing Squall, and perhaps forgot her past because of GF usage. According to Edea, having a knight helps to keep a sorceress honest and good or something. But except for Ultimecia being associated with the GF Griever, there's nothing that even remotely supports these hypotheses about Ultimecia.Quote:
And a complete personality switch can be used, but normally, the writer will build up this personality change without an event. Do you think any half-decent writer would write a story with a sunny, bubbly, optimistic character, who lives in the moment, and then, without any warning or build-up, turn her into the complete opposite: depressed, pessimistic, so afraid of losing somthing that she's to scared to live, a loner.
Saying that a lot of things might have happened is not an argument. You have to state what the things are and the evidence that would lead to these things occuring. Otherwise, it is just an unsubstantiated statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
Also, these arguments are not supposed to stand up by themselves. For an argument to hold true, it needs quite a lot of supporting evidence. These are just additional reasons that make it less likely that U = R.
Well, if you look at Big D's posts, as well as my mention of why Ultimecia would be the way she was as Rinoa, they actually are backed by the UMG and what happens in the game, as it does state what happened to Ultimecia. :p
Serapy stated, "The FFVIII game tells the FFVIII story."
If thats the way you want to play.
1. Where in the game does it mention time is fully compressed?
2. Where in the game is it hinted Rinoa got super pissed off after Squall died.
3. Where is it hinted that Rinoa could survive long enough to get to Ultimecia's time
The correct answers are, never, never, and never. There's nothing in the FFVIII GAME (using your own logic) that says R=U, without being dependent on some other theory.
Which is why this thread should be closed before mind-poison fools a poor unsuspecting lurker :spin:
And to show my reasoning that the game never mentions the plan being "attack her while time is compressed."
The plan is this.Quote:
Ellone will have to send Rinoa and Ultimecia
inside another sorceress she knows in the past. Edea or Adel... Zat's up
to Ellone. Once Ultimecia iz in ze past, she'll use ze time compression
magic. We will see some influence here. I don't know vat kind of
influence, but once Ellone feels it, she'll cut Rinoa and Ultimecia off
from ze past. Rinoa will come back to this world. Ultimecia also goes
back to her own world. Vat would be left is ze time compressed world.
Past, present future will all get mixed together. You will keep moving
through ze time compression toward ze future. Once you're out of ze
time compression, zat will be Ultimecia's world. It's all up to you
after zat.
1. Time Compression starts.
2. Ellone cuts off Ultimecia.
3. Party moves through compression while they still can.
4. Compression ends, party is now in future, they can kill Ulti.
Exactly! Yes, Rinoa could have become super-evil and twisted because Squall died. But, nowhere in the game is it hinted, suggested or explicitly stated that Squall dies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Same with the appearance. There are reasons why Rinoa's face looks like Ultimecia's, such as the dark magic. But, judging by the fact that Rinoa and Ultimecia are not very far apart age-wise, it seems unlikely that dark magic would have been able to change her to the extent that her face no longer looks alike.
So, R=U followers can go forth and bring out reasons why it is true, but at the end of the day, there is no evidence to back it up.
1) Ultimania explicitly states that sorceresses have a normal lifespan. The game explicitly states that Ultimecia lives many generations in the future. Then, how does Rinoa manage to
a) be alive in the future &
b) look, at most, 10 years older than she currently is.
2) Rinoa in the game is a upbeat, light-hearted, friendly girl. Ultimecia is an absolute loner. What evidence IN THE GAME or RELEVANT SUPPORTING MATERIALS suggests that such a change would occur?
3) Rinoa and Ultimecia do not look the same. Even with the constant use of dark magic, it would seem unlikely that Rinoa's entire facial structure would change to become Ultimecia's. Especially seeing that the age difference is not that large, and therefore Rinoa would not have been casting dark magic for a large portion of her life.
So, I'd like these questions answered. And I'd like them answered using in-game evidence, or from a relevant supporting document, such as Ultimania. Speculation does not count.
None whatsoever, with the possible exception of that scene where Rinoa frets about the possibility that she might somehow become "the world's enemy", and Squall silently vows that he'll be her knight even if that happens. But that's just idle speculation by a pair of frightened teenagers who don't know what the future's going to bring.Quote:
Originally Posted by champagne supernova
Rinoa had a vision about the future, and that was her dream of Squall getting lost and her running around the world trying to find him. This eventually happens, when Squall's isolated from the others during their escape from the future, though compressed time, at the game's end. She never had any dreams or visions about becoming a world-destroying evil force, nor was there a glimmer of recognition or familiarity when she came face-to-face with Ultimecia.To be fair, it's hard to say just how old Ultimecia might be. She's got a rather impressive figure, from what we can see of it (which is quite a lot really), but that doesn't necessarily mean she's youthful, merely well-preserved. Smooth skin could even be a side-effect, one of the mutations triggered by magic abuse. She's got completely grey hair, after all. Adel's proof that sorceresses can indeed mutate into something hideously inhuman, given enough time and dark magic. But again, nothing overtly suggests that anything similar happening to Rinoa.Quote:
3) Rinoa and Ultimecia do not look the same. Even with the constant use of dark magic, it would seem unlikely that Rinoa's entire facial structure would change to become Ultimecia's. Especially seeing that the age difference is not that large, and therefore Rinoa would not have been casting dark magic for a large portion of her life.