If you pick Magus, you are a loser

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01-17-2010, 07:46 AM
VeloZer0

While I will readily admit that much of my like of Magus comes from his character design, I think you are being a little harsh.

The advantage of the high magic stat is that the Fire/Ice/Lightning/Dark Mist attacks do a ton more damage than any other characters, as well as allowing him to exploit multiple enemy weaknesses to boot. This allows you nuke random encounters in a far more proficient manner. If I recall he also has the most/very high TP, though I could be mistaken. (Seeing as most of the post game my characters have 99 I don't think its really relevant)

Also, he has his own 'ultimate' equipment which is extremely easy and fast to acquire. You can easily run into the fort, grab it, and leave right after you get the Epoch back. Then do the other side quests in whatever order you fancy.

I don't think it really matters if he thought he could solo Lavos or not, it was more a consumed with revenge he was going to give Lavos everything he had or die trying. More of a personal score to settle, not a logical battle plan in the least. (I have soloed Lavos before with Magus, so it is possible. :) )

As for the ugly, I really liked his character sprite, however I did find his character portrait and FMV appearances to be somewhat lacking. As for the apathetic/quiet/loner archetype, in most RPGs I usually consider the bulk of the party to be idiots that I wouldn't want to talk to. If a character has the same attitude I can't say it doesn't enamor them some to me.
01-17-2010, 08:24 AM
RedPouch

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

While I will readily admit that much of my like of Magus comes from his character design, I think you are being a little harsh.

Yeah, I know I am. Truth be told, I'm probably one of the most ranty-ravy "I hate [blank]" people out there. Few people will flame characters unjustly as much as I will.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

The advantage of the high magic stat is that the Fire/Ice/Lightning/Dark Mist attacks do a ton more damage than any other characters

I wouldn't even say a ton, just more. Besides, almost everything non-boss dies in one bare Luminaire anyways [by bare, I mean no Prism Specs to enhance it dramatically].

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Also, he has his own 'ultimate' equipment which is extremely easy and fast to acquire.

You have to get it for him afterwards, but I think the aim here was lost. In the end, he needs your help to do so since for whatever reason, he doesn't think to do it on his own. Now of course, nothing's wrong with some character flaws or mistakes, but when it comes to characters that annoy me yet get a lot of hype, I tend to be harsher on them.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

I don't think it really matters if he thought he could solo Lavos or not, it was more a consumed with revenge he was going to give Lavos everything he had or die trying. More of a personal score to settle, not a logical battle plan in the least.

Yeah, but stupidity is stupidity. He was far too weak to be able to even be a match for Lavos at that stage, but he thought so anyways despite his past experience and knowledge about Lavos, which strikes me as silly.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

As for the ugly, I really liked his character sprite, however I did find his character portrait and FMV appearances to be somewhat lacking.

Hell, I'll admit that I like his sprite too. I think it looks damn cool. However the artwork of his face is just horrendous, but I'm sure he wasn't intended to look handsome. I can overlook that though. I've liked non-pretty characters before.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

As for the apathetic/quiet/loner archetype, in most RPGs I usually consider the bulk of the party to be idiots that I wouldn't want to talk to. If a character has the same attitude I can't say it doesn't enamor them some to me.

I actually can understand what you mean by this. I really can. Still... two "annoying"s don't make a "good". It would be less annoying if I hadn't seen this type of character so much, but for goodness' sake, there are Magus-type characters everywhere. I was just telling Wolf Kanno [who seems to know where I'm coming from, though he still adores Magus] in PM that I think it's lame how I'm seeing Magus-types all over the place. It wasn't even that bad back then, but now it's out of control. Almost every JRPG/anime has some Magus-like character. They all act the same way and say the same types of things. It just drives me nuts.

You're very intelligent and I enjoy your responses on these forums. Regardless, I needed something to rage about tonight, and I think I satisfied my rant-urge for now. I have a feeling I'm going to get shot by all the Magus-lovers though. I generally end up detesting the characters that people tend to fanboy/fangirl over, like Cloud/Sephiroth/Amarant/Magus/Arumat/Adray/Dias/etc.
01-17-2010, 09:04 AM
VeloZer0

Fanboys making you dislike the object of their affection is a perfectly normal reaction. Heck, they even make me like the games/characters I already like just a little bit less :D

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Yeah, but stupidity is stupidity. He was far too weak to be able to even be a match for Lavos at that stage, but he thought so anyways despite his past experience and knowledge about Lavos, which strikes me as silly.

People bent on revenge don't always act in ways that normal people would consider to make the most sense. Also, he only ever saw Lavos as a little kid. Sure his power must have seemed insurmountable, but then again his power had grown immeasurably since that point as well. From my take on it he was basically living his life for his personal revenge against Lavos. He had a chance to fight him, and from his mindset there was no way he couldn't take it up.

Also, storyline wise Magus is a lot stronger than any party members, and he also had no way of knowing how much they had grown since they faced him in his castle. Factor that in with the them barging in to his castle trying to kill him and you can see why he didn't consider teaming up with you. Only after his revenge and his death were robed of him has he sunk low enough to fall in with you.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0 ^
Also, he has his own 'ultimate' equipment which is extremely easy and fast to acquire.

You have to get it for him afterwards, but I think the aim here was lost. In the end, he needs your help to do so since for whatever reason, he doesn't think to do it on his own. Now of course, nothing's wrong with some character flaws or mistakes, but when it comes to characters that annoy me yet get a lot of hype, I tend to be harsher on them.

Your coments seem somewhat non-sequeter. What I meant to say that in terms of party utility he can become equiped with his ultimate (moon armor is better, I know) gear within a few minutes of having access to the flying Epoch. This makes him much stronger defensively than the other characters are before you get all the quests done.
01-17-2010, 03:09 PM
RedPouch

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Also, storyline wise Magus is a lot stronger than any party members

Even though you defeat him once and then [since the portal is well-open to you] potentially being defeated again, by Frog fighting solo?

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Only after his revenge and his death were robed of him has he sunk low enough to fall in with you.

Well, yes, of course. This was my original point. It took some major sense to be slapped to him for him to realize that this was his best option [aside from it being his only available option at that point]. As I recall, in the original timeline he was meant to be destroyed by Lavos at the time he summoned him [which your interfering prevents].

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Fanboys making you dislike the object of their affection is a perfectly normal reaction. Heck, they even make me like the games/characters I already like just a little bit less :D

Me too! I used to love certain characters, but their images were tarnished because of all the kiddie hype over them. I hate letting the opinions of others indirectly taint mine, but I can only preserve so much patience against annoying hype before I start to get irritated by the subject.
01-17-2010, 03:43 PM
VeloZer0

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Even though you defeat him once and then [since the portal is well-open to you] potentially being defeated again, by Frog fighting solo?

Well, to be fair the first time you fight him it is three on one, and he is busy summoning Lavos at the same time. It also states in the game that Lavos drains Magus's power when they fight. that is why he is easy pickings if you chose to fight him. (not to mention can't use all the snazzy attacks he used on you earlier.)

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As I recall, in the original timeline he was meant to be destroyed by Lavos at the time he summoned him [which your interfering prevents].

Magus wasn't in Zeal on the original day of Lavos to be destroyed by him. And Janus was gated to 600 A.D. (less however many years it was) before Lavos showed any of his true world destroying power. So it is understandable that Magus can't get an accurate read of how strong he is.
EDIT: Oh, you mean he was destroyed by Lavos in 600 A.D when he summoned him. I don't recall hearing about that one way or the other. It would make sense that he became Lavos chow, but usually summoning Lavos has other catastrophic events accompanying it. For him to actualy summon Lavos and fight without the world noticing seems unlikely to me. More plausible was that he was gated like when you fought him, though to whereabouts unknown. (OMG, maybe he's the entity! ;)) Although it is entirely possible he is too strong to be pulled into a gate by Lavos when he is at full health.
This is something I've never thought about before.

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It took some major sense to be slapped to him for him to realize that this was his best option

In my perspective, for Magus, teaming up with the party is a fate worse than death. However, he was denied death and so he is consigned to this fate. I don't think he actually thought the party would defeat Lavos when he joined them, though I don't suppose I can back this up.
01-17-2010, 06:41 PM
RedPouch

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

It also states in the game that Lavos drains Magus's power when they fight. that is why he is easy pickings if you chose to fight him. (not to mention can't use all the snazzy attacks he used on you earlier.)

I just played through the game three times [two new game+] and I don't remember seeing anything having to do with Lavos draining his power. Could you be specific about when exactly this was stated?

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

EDIT: Oh, you mean he was destroyed by Lavos in 600 A.D when he summoned him. I don't recall hearing about that one way or the other. It would make sense that he became Lavos chow, but usually summoning Lavos has other catastrophic events accompanying it.

Yes. From what I understand, this is made clear in the Japanese version.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Well, to be fair the first time you fight him it is three on one, and he is busy summoning Lavos at the same time.

This could be a viable argument. Though this is a bit of a stretch [and it's not some lame attempt to brag], it really isn't very hard to kill him solo doing your first run-through. You could argue that it's considered canon that all three party members were active in fighting him, but in all honesty it still comes down to lacking the power to overpower your party [yet he thinks he can fight Lavos... ?].

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

In my perspective, for Magus, teaming up with the party is a fate worse than death. However, he was denied death and so he is consigned to this fate. I don't think he actually thought the party would defeat Lavos when he joined them, though I don't suppose I can back this up.

You... could argue this, however I don't really see enough dialogue in the English version to indicate that he truly felt that joining the party was so disgraceful that it would be comparable to dying. I think he truly took some kind of liking to them, or he wouldn't have passed on his advice on a way to save Crono [which he does even if you choose to kill him]. As for seeking death, I never got this impression either. He seems a little too proud to accept defeat so easily. Power-hungry people are generally only obsessed with finding more power to unleash on their target. More likely he overestimated his power, or underestimated his opponents.
01-17-2010, 07:44 PM
VeloZer0

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I just played through the game three times [two new game+] and I don't remember seeing anything having to do with Lavos draining his power. Could you be specific about when exactly this was stated?

YouTube - Xytrasx's Channel
2:43 in, "Magus: Aaah!! My powers are being drained!"
I didn't notice it for a few playthroughs either.

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Yes. From what I understand, this is made clear in the Japanese version.

Fair enough, makes sense.

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but in all honesty it still comes down to lacking the power to overpower your party [yet he thinks he can fight Lavos... ?].

I always figured he as spending a lot of energy summoning Lavos while he was fighting you, meaning if you had met under normal circumstances he would mop the floor with you. Also remember how powerful Spekkio considers Magus to be. (I don't have a direct quote atm.)

I didn't so much mean to imply Magus was seeking death, just that he had only ever envisioned killing Lavos himself or dieing trying to. Only once it finally set in that he would get neither of these did he consider joining the party. As you mentioned, he is extremely proud, so to me it seems joining with Crono & Co. is about on the same level as dieing for him, possibly lower.

After going back and playing a little bit of CT because of this, I can definitely say that the awesome theme of his does certainly influence my affection for him as a character.
01-17-2010, 10:09 PM
RedPouch

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeloZer0

YouTube - Xytrasx's Channel
2:43 in, "Magus: Aaah!! My powers are being drained!"
I didn't notice it for a few playthroughs either.

You're saying that this had a permanent drain effect on him? I don't mean to be difficult, but wouldn't the others be suffering the same power drain in this situation?

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Also remember how powerful Spekkio considers Magus to be. (I don't have a direct quote atm.)

This is true [he says something like "he could teach me a thing or two about magic"], but the fact still remains that Magus' spells [including Dark Matter] have the lowest damage multipliers in the game, which make his really high magic stat not mean much.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

As you mentioned, he is extremely proud, so to me it seems joining with Crono & Co. is about on the same level as dieing for him, possibly lower.

In the end however, they're basically shown to all be "equals" [more-or-less] in terms of power since in the end it doesn't really matter who's in your party, so joining Crono & Co. can't seriously be all that bad. The only question I have is what truly motivated Magus to share the information about Gasper and the Chrono Trigger whether you kill him or not. It's all speculation if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

After going back and playing a little bit of CT because of this, I can definitely say that the awesome theme of his does certainly influence my affection for him as a character.

Magus' battle theme is one of the best boss battle musics ever made to this day. I always keep Magus in my party anyways so I can hear it when I fight Queen Zeal.
01-18-2010, 01:10 AM
VeloZer0

I always assume there is a difference in a characters in game strength and their story line strength. In so many games the main character surpasses the rest of the party in story sequences, but is on similar terms gameplay wise. So in order to get a read on how strong a character 'actually is' I usually don't focus on the in battle elements. And all the dialoge in the game seems to point to Magus being significantly stronger than the party.

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You're saying that this had a permanent drain effect on him? I don't mean to be difficult, but wouldn't the others be suffering the same power drain in this situation?

The permanent drain isn't explicitly corroborated, but it explains everything quite nicely. Also note there is a significant difference between "I can't get up because all my power has been sucked out of me" and "I can't get up because I just got the crap beaten out of me." The party was suffering from the later, while his dialog was indicating Magus was suffering from the former. Perhaps the reason Lavos drained his strength in the first place was because he felt more threatened by Magus than by anyone else?(Pure speculation I know, you don't have to point it out. :))

The reason Magus has such a low multiplier on Dark Matter is to keep the game balanced because his magic stat is so high. (Right now I'm addressing how his stats don't translate to his plot related strength, not trying to sell him to you as a party memeber). I just loaded up my save game in which neither Magus or Chrono have gotten any magic tabs.
Luminaire (99+47)*20.5 = 2993
Dark Matter (99+99)*15.5 = 3069
So if you don't boost Chrono's magic stat with items or tabs they are the same strength. Can you imagine how overpowered Magus would be if Dark Matter had the same x20.5 multiplier Luminaire had?

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Magus' battle theme is one of the best boss battle musics ever made to this day. I always keep Magus in my party anyways so I can hear it when I fight Queen Zeal.

I always liked his lines before you fight him/zeal as well, to me it really helped set the atmosphere for the fight. Though to you they are probably like nails on the chalkboard :P
01-19-2010, 06:29 AM
RedPouch

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

The permanent drain isn't explicitly corroborated, but it explains everything quite nicely. Also note there is a significant difference between "I can't get up because all my power has been sucked out of me" and "I can't get up because I just got the crap beaten out of me." The party was suffering from the later, while his dialog was indicating Magus was suffering from the former. Perhaps the reason Lavos drained his strength in the first place was because he felt more threatened by Magus than by anyone else?(Pure speculation I know, you don't have to point it out. :))

I won't attack it. It just seems like it's a bit of a stretch is all. But my original point is that a party of three above-average strength heroes can overpower Magus early on, yet for some reason he thinks he has what it takes to take on Lavos. You could say it was because he was in the middle of summoning, but you could also say that he just as easily stopped the spell entirely to focus on his fight with your party [hence it going "wrong"].

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

I just loaded up my save game in which neither Magus or Chrono have gotten any magic tabs.
Luminaire (99+47)*20.5 = 2993
Dark Matter (99+99)*15.5 = 3069
So if you don't boost Chrono's magic stat with items or tabs they are the same strength. Can you imagine how overpowered Magus would be if Dark Matter had the same x20.5 multiplier Luminaire had?

That was exactly my point in my rant post though. His high magic stat is basically useless because his spells can't make efficient use of it. The stat almost might as well have not been that high at all in all honesty. Basically, you have to make sure to never give Crono any tabs, then have Magus level up dramatically just so his damage can catch up to a bare Luminaire. In short, his high magic stat is basically there to say that his tier 2 spells are better than everyone else's, and that's about it.

I don't see the logic of the creators giving him a high magic stat if they were going to give him such weak spells. Most pro-Magus fanboys do not realize this, and blindly announce that he's the most powerful character in the game without giving any analysis on the subject [clearly], which annoys me. Had they actually made Magus deal as much damage with Dark Matter as Luminaire or even Lucca's Flare, I'd probably feel differently about Magus. Though I'm still frustrated with his lack of physical tech. I know he's mainly a magic-user, but seriously just one physical tech would have been helpful and given him some versatility to keep his character cohesive with other party combinations [I'm not even going to go into his lack of dual techs and the triple techs which demand you replace someone's accessory with a rock].

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

I always liked his lines before you fight him/zeal as well, to me it really helped set the atmosphere for the fight. Though to you they are probably like nails on the chalkboard :P

Not necessarily nails on the chalkboard, but I wasn't exactly impressed with it. I was more annoyed by the fact that he exchanged practically no real dialogue with Queen Zeal, other than a short "muah-ha-ha" speech. Beyond that, he neither displayed any regret, hatred, or sympathy for his mother. Nothing. Most people would give me the typical arguments of "well he really doesn't care, because that's the badass he is" or "he's too cool to care about mommy" or "he's too busy with his revenge path against Lavos to really care" or something like that. But in all honesty, I thought it was poorly written dialogue and I really didn't buy it. I have to admit that when I first played through the game, I was so excited to see if Magus would say anything to Queen Zeal if you brought him to fight her. Upon seeing that pathetic dialogue, I was extremely disappointed ".... that was it... ?". He gets practically no character development at all once he joins your party, and development prior to that wasn't impressive to begin with.
01-20-2010, 02:25 AM
VeloZer0

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I won't attack it.

Please do, defending my ideas only ensures I have to think them through more thoroughly.

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Most pro-Magus fanboys do not realize this, and blindly announce that he's the most powerful character in the game without giving any analysis on the subject

Well, anyone who says Magus is by far the strongest is a little out to left field.

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His high magic stat is basically useless because his spells can't make efficient use of it.

I think you are underestimating the difference between his magic damage and the rest of the party. It is important to note that his Lit/Fire/Ice multipliers are x7.5 compared to the regular 5.75. At LV 80 (when Magus maxes out magic, which I would consider the end of the progression curves.)
Magus Dark Matter: 2775
Crono Luminair: 2419
So at Lv 80 Crono would have to have consumed a whopping 17 magic tabs to break even with Dark Matter.

Lightning 2:
Magus: 1343
Crono: 679
That is twice as much damage Magus is doing with his Lightning 2 spell over Crono.

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Had they actually made Magus deal as much damage with Dark Matter as Luminaire or even Lucca's Flare, I'd probably feel differently about Magus.

So although Dark Matter has a poor multiplier it still does more damage when cast unless you are in the high 90s or have been power feeding Crono magic tabs. (Dark Matter runs ~15% more powerful for most of the game.)

You could compare him to a caster like Lucca, and his magical damage is more in line (negligibly more on Dark Matter and only 40% more damage on Fire 2.), but he has more HP/Defense/Physical Attack strength. As mentioned he lacks the Utility of double and triple tecs, but I think it evens it out. (I don't even consider him as having triple techs as all, so don't even feel the need to bring up rocks :))

I also didn't find Dual/Triple techs nearly as effective in the late game as they were through it, though I don't think this is a thread to get into that mechanic. Suffice to say that the lack of dual techs isn't too much of a handicap to me. (It would be completely debilitating in the earlier stages of the game.)

So in conclusion is he the complete do everything package? No, of course not. He is balanced just like any other character. (Well, I think Crono is a little on the overpowered side when equipped with the Rainbow.)

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He gets practically no character development at all once he joins your party, and development prior to that wasn't impressive to begin with.

Usually to me 'development' of a character like Magus means turn him into a sissy character (for lack of better word) I hate. So in that vein I was somewhat glad to see a lack of development. I was kind of disappointed in his lack of involvement in a lot of the game once you got him, I wish he would have had more lines, though in some ways this does highlight the fact that he still wasn't exactly 'one of you'. (Or more likely the developers didn't put as much effort in because he as optional.)
01-20-2010, 03:57 AM
RedPouch

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

So at Lv 80 Crono would have to have consumed a whopping 17 magic tabs to break even with Dark Matter.

That isn't a lot, though. The game is overly filled with them. I always pumped a lot of tabs into Crono because his output makes the most use out of them. Somehow I feel that calculation of yours is off though, because my Luminaire generally does 3.9k and Crono's Magic is only 55 if I recall.

I also don't think this is very relevant because like I said, you get tabs like crazy, so it's silly to make sure nobody else progresses just to keep Magus ahead of everyone. In the end, everyone's stats will get crazy high up because tabs are pumped into your inventory like a gumball machine. And it's even more of a joke once you get a character to 99 and you start fighting Spekkio in his pink Nu form [nice, 10 of each tab type for his defeat].

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

That is twice as much damage Magus is doing with his Lightning 2 spell over Crono.

Yes, I know that. I don't mean to sound rude, but I've already covered this twice. My point was - who cares if his tier 2 magic is better than everyone else's? Most tier 2 magic is a waste of time unless it's Marle's case or something.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

You could compare him to a caster like Lucca, and his magical damage is more in line (negligibly more on Dark Matter and only 40% more damage on Fire 2.), but he has more HP/Defense/Physical Attack strength.

I don't even consider his physical attack strength to be relevant. He has no physical techs, so having him attack is pretty useless. Same with Lucca and Marle.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

As mentioned he lacks the Utility of double and triple tecs, but I think it evens it out.

I don't think so. In the end, his magic damage output isn't going to be impressive in comparison to everyone else's, to the point where his value is pretty much equal to some of the other party members. Being as such, his lack of versatility and cohesion does not get evened out in my opinion. And I don't know if it's just me, but I actually find Robo a hell of a lot more useful than Magus gameplay-wise.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

I also didn't find Dual/Triple techs nearly as effective in the late game as they were through it, though I don't think this is a thread to get into that mechanic. Suffice to say that the lack of dual techs isn't too much of a handicap to me. (It would be completely debilitating in the earlier stages of the game.)

Well it depends. Triple techs in almost all cases are always inferior to three single techs, or one dual and one single. One dual tech and one single in some cases can actually prove somewhat more efficient, it just depends.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

So in conclusion is he the complete do everything package? No, of course not. He is balanced just like any other character. (Well, I think Crono is a little on the overpowered side when equipped with the Rainbow.)

Give Crono the Rainbow Sword and Prism Specs and he's ridiculously overpowered. I solo'd the pink Nu Spekkio using Crono with level 50 stats. Of course, you could do that with any character I'm sure, but I found it to be especially easy with Crono. However, he is a main hero type, so I don't really find it unusual that they gave him a lot of potential for power. I felt the same way about the main hero for DQ IV for the NES [for those that didn't play it, he's extremely strong, equips the most powerful armours and weapons in the game, has amazing healing magic, and devastating offensive magic, not to mention a spell that has small chances to wreak total destruction in various ways].

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Usually to me 'development' of a character like Magus means turn him into a sissy character (for lack of better word) I hate.

Aw, a sissy? Why does development have to mean turning someone into a sissy? Everyone has a backstory. Is someone a sissy because they might have actual thoughts and serious foundation for their motivations? I'm just the opposite, in the sense that seeing a guy that tries way too hard to be an apathetic badass really irritates me and doesn't impress me in the slightest. It strikes me as a very typical, bland, McCafé-coffee type character that I just see way too often, and it makes me roll my eyes and think "great, another one of these". I feel that it's the tall-tale sign of a poorly written character by a writer that falls back on a weak cliche to try and impress people [which seems to work on a great many people, this type of character is generally popular with western culture people, especially Americans].

Aside from that, having a lot more dialogue lines and actually displaying some interaction would've given him more personality that might have made me think I was wrong to prejudge him based on his initial attitude or looks. However, this wasn't the case, and even though this is an old game, this cliche was still very prevalent back then in many anime/manga.
01-20-2010, 04:05 AM
Roogle

I only enjoy playing as human characters. With Crono out of the picture, I had to use Magus, Lucca, and Marle as the alternatives would leave me an all-female party or a party without all humans.

I feel like Magus would have benefited if the game was remade and had more dialogue and depth like the plots of today's games are supposed to —

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Originally Posted by Khalin

It strikes me as a very typical, bland, McCafé-coffee type character that I just see way too often, and it makes me roll my eyes and think "great, another one of these". I feel that it's the tall-tale sign of a poorly written character by a writer that falls back on a weak cliche to try and impress people [which seems to work on a great many people, this type of character is generally popular with western culture people, especially Americans].

What do you mean by a "McCafé-coffee type character"?
01-20-2010, 04:14 AM
RedPouch

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

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I won't attack it.

Please do, defending my ideas only ensures I have to think them through more thoroughly.

I try not to get carried away because I'm an extremely opinionated person [as most of you guys have probably noticed by now], and I tend to go overboard sometimes. The thing is, I end up sounding a lot more aggressive and offensive than I actually am or intend, so I try to watch myself and be polite. That notion of yours was a stretch, but I can see how one might arrive to that conclusion, so I didn't think it warranted attacking.

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Originally Posted by Roogle

I only enjoy playing as human characters. With Crono out of the picture, I had to use Magus, Lucca, and Marle as the alternatives would leave me an all-female party or a party without all humans.

Aw, you don't like all-female parties? And I know Magus is supposed to be human, but he looks like a demon or something. Did being around demons change his genetic makeup somehow? He started out as a human boy, and neither his mother nor Schala looked that way [and I'm not counting the Queen Zeal boss form that you fight on top of the Black Omen].

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Originally Posted by Roogle

I feel like Magus would have benefited if the game was remade and had more dialogue and depth like the plots of today's games are supposed to —

You might be right about that. If he had a lot more depth to his otherwise very expected character, I might have actually liked him a lot. Sometimes I like a character so much, that I'll use them in my party even if they aren't that great. Sometimes I'll even force them to be great if I like them that much. It's just disappointing when I prejudge characters like this based on their initial presentation and their looks, and end up being absolutely correct about them 98% of the time. This is a sign of a character that gets recycled over and over. In some ways I almost want to say that it's some kind of "Mary Sue" for apathetic badass types.

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Originally Posted by Roogle

What do you mean by a "McCafé-coffee type character"?

McDonalds coffee is really boring-tasting coffee. It's about as plain as you can get. Forward from that, it's been the trend for many restaurants, fast food places, book stores, and so on, to have starbucks-like selections for their coffee menu, down to the pastries. McDonalds of course, has followed into this trend. Do their McCafé selections actually taste good? The answer is no. I've tasted all of their McCafé flavours, and they were nasty.
01-20-2010, 04:58 AM
VeloZer0

It's one thing to come out attacking someone aggressively, but when we have been going back and forth for a few posts it's more open game. ;)

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'sissy'

I knew that choice of words was going to get me in trouble. I usually spend a few minutes searching around for something more appropriate, but I got lazy :(

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Yes, I know that. I don't mean to sound rude, but I've already covered this twice. My point was - who cares if his tier 2 magic is better than everyone else's? Most tier 2 magic is a waste of time unless it's Marle's case or something.

I threw the number up there because I didn't appreciate how much the difference was until I ran them myself. I use tier 2 magic all the time to nuke groups of enemies, and it works especially well because with Magus as you can exploit any elemental weakness. Thats the difference, with most characters tier 2 magic is useless, with Magus it is viable. I consider this to be his greatest strength.

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I only enjoy playing as human characters. With Crono out of the picture, I had to use Magus, Lucca, and Marle as the alternatives would leave me an all-female party or a party without all humans.

I know exactly how you feel, though Frog is one of the few exceptions.

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And I know Magus is supposed to be human, but he looks like a demon or something. Did being around demons change his genetic makeup somehow?

I would imagine he styled himself to look the part as leader of the mystics. And we never got to see what his father looked like :)

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Somehow I feel that calculation of yours is off though, because my Luminaire generally does 3.9k and Crono's Magic is only 55 if I recall.

They jived with the numbers I got out of my saved game. All the numbers don't take into account prisim specs.

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I don't even consider his physical attack strength to be relevant. He has no physical techs, so having him attack is pretty useless. Same with Lucca and Marle.

I don't consider it super important, but it is certainly a plus to me. I did, however neglect to mention he has a speed stat of 12 to Lucca's 6. Which is important as Speed Tabs aren't plentiful until you start clearing the Black Omen, which is usually the last thing people do.

I found the triple techs quite powerful when you first get access to them, but get outpaced soon afterwards. Though some like 3D-Attack are never useful as the techs contributing to it are of such un-equal power. (X-Strike + Triple Kick? Come on.) I actually find that most of the time at the end of the game it is better for everyone to use single techs anyways.
I would also like to point out that although you cite Dark Matter as having a weak multiplier, it is something he can still hold above the characters who don't have a Lv3 nuke at all.

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However, he is a main hero type, so I don't really find it unusual that they gave him a lot of potential for power

I wasn't so much wanting to talk about Crono as I couldn't in good faith say that all the characters were balanced while I felt he was much stronger.

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Aw, a sissy?... (whole bunch more text)

Well, it appears what we were thinking of in terms of development was quite different. I was referring to character development as the desire to have the character change and grow over the course of the story. A textbook case (for me) would be Squall from FFVIII. I actualy identified with him somewhat strongly in the beginning of the game, and in the end he as turned into someone I truly despise. This sort of transition is not entirely uncommon in media, and it truly vexes me whenever I see it. And in my experience this is what people mean when they say characters in the vein of Magus should 'develop' more. (A hostile reaction not unlike yours to the character archetype in general.)
In terms of fleshing out Magus more, I think this is an excellent idea.

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...in the sense that seeing a guy that tries way too hard to be an apathetic badass really irritates me and doesn't impress me in the slightest.

Lol. I laugh because I'm generally apathetic about a lot of things (or extremely passionate, I'm a very binary person) and it irritates the hell out of me that most people seem to think I'm trying to be apathetic when I genuinely don't care about something.

I sure hope I didn't miss anything.
EDIT: I totally did.

I usually give all my magic tabs to whichever healer I'm going to use, actually. In my experience, of the people I know who play, without heavy New Game+ farming it would be highly unusually for him to get 17 unless that is the player's main focus.

And in further thought after typing the last paragraph, it's not Magus's low Dark Matter multiplier that hurts him, it's the fact that stats cap out at 99.

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