Reviews

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Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan

As for linearity, FFVI, along with a few others, are pretty linear until you get an airship or something similar. Basically you have the town NPCs more or less drawing you a map where to go next. Sure, you have that nice big open world map to go to, but for the most part at the beginning of the game all other areas are conveniently blocked off, leaving your next destination very obvious. Not so coincidental and ever so convenient, the only place you can go is the place that all the earlier NPCs were talking about and the next plot point! Not to say they don't open up, they do, but it only occurs later in the game. Sure, it seems open but if you look close enough they are just giving you slack on the leash.

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I almost completely agree. I also want to add that the towns of VI were as bland as they get in the World of Balance. People complain about the lack of towns or whatever in XIII, but is it better to have boring towns than no towns at all? What makes the FFVI world interesting (if you find it interesting, that is) is how everything changes so suddenly and the new perspective it brings. I find that going through FFVI isn't a particularly incredible experience - FFV has far better gameplay among the SNES saga - it's only how it all fits together at the end that makes me think about what a great time I just had.

I'm hoping XIII ends up similarly satisfying. At this point there's no reason to believe it won't. I can buy reviewers calling foul on the linear-freedom game model; most mainstream reviewers have always cried foul about a lot of RPG conventions. The fans shock me, however. From what it sounds like, as much as XIII is trying to riff on VII, it seems like it's really the spiritual successor to VI (linear-freedom design, ensemble cast, standard backdrop setting brought to life by great character work, etc). One would think people would be more welcoming.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

I'll admit that I haven't really looked that much into the criticisms of FFXIII. (I'm going to buy it regardless, what is the point in looking at other peoples opinions?). I just feel like the snippets I have heard could easily be applied to other well loved games, FFVI for example. You can defend FFVI , but I think you could see how someone could make similar comments about the game.

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And I find that completely fair to say. I think the only one I don't agree was someone using Xenogears as a parallel cause there is a big difference between how XIII seems to be using it and how Gears did it.

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Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan

I would hardly say FFVI has a class system. Sure, each character has a special ability and you can only equip certain items on certain people. Insofar as that is true, there are classes, however the lines are very blurred with Espers. Traditionally, magic is not open to every class. I'd say FFVI has as much as a class system as FFX: it is only a class system as much as you allow it to be. Sure Rikku is a "thief" class as well as Locke, but hey let's give Locke an Esper and Rikku learn a bit of Lulu's Sphere Grid and now they're mages as well! FFVI class system is more of a pseudo-class system in all honesty.

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You can give characters the ability to use magic but it never changes the fact that the characters have innate abilities and qualities that keep them distinctly different from each other permanently so I would say this constitutes as an actual class system. Just because the Mage classes can be blended into every other class doesn't mean its a psuedo system cause if it was, it would be like FFX where all characters can learn everything (except Overdrives and summons) that make each of them unique to each other. You can have everyone master every magic spell but it doesn't change than you may still pick the Figaro brothers cause you love using Bum Rush and Chainsaw. ;)

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Relic system? Seriously? It is just the same as equipping accessories in most other RPGs, just this time you get two. Though the Gametrailer video review is the first time I heard about the crafting system for the weapons in FFXIII and from their impression it is underwhelming.

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Yeah, except VI was the first to really do it on the scale that it did. Sure some accessories had some innate buffs and debuffs in the past but their were generally only a handful in previous RPGs and VI was the first to use Relics that actually gave your characters abilites. GP Rain, Control, Jump, Dash, W-Magic, Double Handed, Duel Wield, and Barrage... The game literally took the sub-class abilites from V and made them into equipment that gave you the effects. Getting the Gauntlet and Genji Glove to characters like Sabin and Cyan is just as important as teaching Cure and Ultima to your mage like characters. So I would say it did more than just do a few statistical effects for characters I don't think you are giving the system enough credit. They even brought it back to some extent for X-2 of all games and VII's materia system is basically them breaking down the Esper and Relic system downs even further.

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As for linearity, FFVI, along with a few others, are pretty linear until you get an airship or something similar. Basically you have the town NPCs more or less drawing you a map where to go next. Sure, you have that nice big open world map to go to, but for the most part at the beginning of the game all other areas are conveniently blocked off, leaving your next destination very obvious. Not so coincidental and ever so convenient, the only place you can go is the place that all the earlier NPCs were talking about and the next plot point! Not to say they don't open up, they do, but it only occurs later in the game. Sure, it seems open but if you look close enough they are just giving you slack on the leash.

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This I can agree with but I actually prefer having the slacked leash over knowing that I have no real control, mostly cause Square was usually kind enough to always throw you a bone every once and awhile and let actually find something special. Using VI as an example, you don't even need to go to South Figaro. Once you walk in, you can simply walk out and proceed to Mt. Kolts but you miss out on meeting Shadow and learning the back-story of Duncan and Vargas, or even the foreshadowing of South Figaro's fall. If you didn't explore the area around South Figaro you would miss seeing Duncan's house and getting foreshadowing of Sabin's arrival. You still have choice despite having few options, whereas the type of game XIII is said to be , your choices are to move forward or stop playing. Whether XIII presents a strong initiative to continue moving forward is something we will have to wait until we play it though.

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The reviewers complaining about melodrama make me laugh though. It is like they haven't played most JRPGs or watched anime. Sure, they are not all like that but it is common enough that it shouldn't be surprising. To me, it is like complaining about the fact that most RPGs are about saving the world or some re-iteration thereof.

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Most I have read said its not so much the melodrama as much as its the fact the cast is very 2-Dimensional and mostly RPG cliches with the exception of Sahz whom I have yet to hear anything negative about.

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Give me a good battle system and an engaging plot and/or characters and I am pretty much set.

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I'm a full package kinda guy, but its just because as I've been getting older, I'm noticing how important the little things are to the whole deal. I still intend to play XIII and I'll pass my final judgment when I see the ending credits.

of the game already...

I do believe the flaws are there.I still intend to buy the game eventually anyway...

I still think Square needs to bring in some western game developers to help with Final Fantasy, especially with the dialogue and with plot developement...

:)

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan

I would hardly say FFVI has a class system. Sure, each character has a special ability and you can only equip certain items on certain people. Insofar as that is true, there are classes, however the lines are very blurred with Espers. Traditionally, magic is not open to every class. I'd say FFVI has as much as a class system as FFX: it is only a class system as much as you allow it to be. Sure Rikku is a "thief" class as well as Locke, but hey let's give Locke an Esper and Rikku learn a bit of Lulu's Sphere Grid and now they're mages as well! FFVI class system is more of a pseudo-class system in all honesty.

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You can give characters the ability to use magic but it never changes the fact that the characters have innate abilities and qualities that keep them distinctly different from each other permanently so I would say this constitutes as an actual class system. Just because the Mage classes can be blended into every other class doesn't mean its a psuedo system cause if it was, it would be like FFX where all characters can learn everything (except Overdrives and summons) that make each of them unique to each other. You can have everyone master every magic spell but it doesn't change than you may still pick the Figaro brothers cause you love using Bum Rush and Chainsaw. ;)

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It still doesn't feel like a class system to me. It is more of traits that reflect each character's personality and background than an actual class system. Then again, my idea of a class system is something more like FFV's or FFT's than anything else.

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Relic system? Seriously? It is just the same as equipping accessories in most other RPGs, just this time you get two. Though the Gametrailer video review is the first time I heard about the crafting system for the weapons in FFXIII and from their impression it is underwhelming.

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Yeah, except VI was the first to really do it on the scale that it did. Sure some accessories had some innate buffs and debuffs in the past but their were generally only a handful in previous RPGs and VI was the first to use Relics that actually gave your characters abilites. GP Rain, Control, Jump, Dash, W-Magic, Double Handed, Duel Wield, and Barrage... The game literally took the sub-class abilites from V and made them into equipment that gave you the effects. Getting the Gauntlet and Genji Glove to characters like Sabin and Cyan is just as important as teaching Cure and Ultima to your mage like characters. So I would say it did more than just do a few statistical effects for characters I don't think you are giving the system enough credit. They even brought it back to some extent for X-2 of all games and VII's materia system is basically them breaking down the Esper and Relic system downs even further.

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I'll give you this since I wasn't looking at it within the context of the series (I also haven't played all of the older instalments). I was comparing it more to other RPGs and FFs that had followed it.

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As for linearity, FFVI, along with a few others, are pretty linear until you get an airship or something similar. Basically you have the town NPCs more or less drawing you a map where to go next. Sure, you have that nice big open world map to go to, but for the most part at the beginning of the game all other areas are conveniently blocked off, leaving your next destination very obvious. Not so coincidental and ever so convenient, the only place you can go is the place that all the earlier NPCs were talking about and the next plot point! Not to say they don't open up, they do, but it only occurs later in the game. Sure, it seems open but if you look close enough they are just giving you slack on the leash.

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This I can agree with but I actually prefer having the slacked leash over knowing that I have no real control, mostly cause Square was usually kind enough to always throw you a bone every once and awhile and let actually find something special. Using VI as an example, you don't even need to go to South Figaro. Once you walk in, you can simply walk out and proceed to Mt. Kolts but you miss out on meeting Shadow and learning the back-story of Duncan and Vargas, or even the foreshadowing of South Figaro's fall. If you didn't explore the area around South Figaro you would miss seeing Duncan's house and getting foreshadowing of Sabin's arrival. You still have choice despite having few options, whereas the type of game XIII is said to be , your choices are to move forward or stop playing. Whether XIII presents a strong initiative to continue moving forward is something we will have to wait until we play it though.

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I didn't know you could do that, but then again I am the type that tries to explore every inch before I move on, despite the fact that sometimes I am like "Next plot point, kthnx". I guess it depends with me, I do not mind it being linear at all, though as long as it pulls me in. Though, I really hate it when it is too open yet no reward for exploring it, especially when there are random battles. Basically, those instances where you are on the world map, you are not too sure where to go and the path is not so obvious that you end up exploring. Then you end up going far away from your goal, only to turn back and to be slowed by countless random battles. That annoys me to no end.

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The reviewers complaining about melodrama make me laugh though. It is like they haven't played most JRPGs or watched anime. Sure, they are not all like that but it is common enough that it shouldn't be surprising. To me, it is like complaining about the fact that most RPGs are about saving the world or some re-iteration thereof.

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Most I have read said its not so much the melodrama as much as its the fact the cast is very 2-Dimensional and mostly RPG cliches with the exception of Sahz whom I have yet to hear anything negative about.

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I haven't heard much about the characters, but more about the over-the-top melodrama. Maybe we should trade sources since we seem to be getting different impressions!

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Give me a good battle system and an engaging plot and/or characters and I am pretty much set.

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I'm a full package kinda guy, but its just because as I've been getting older, I'm noticing how important the little things are to the whole deal. I still intend to play XIII and I'll pass my final judgment when I see the ending credits.

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As I've gotten older, I need more to keep my attention to the game since there are a lot of other things I could be doing or I just get bored of it easily. I've found games that I enjoy their battle system and game mechanics more to be the ones I come back on, especially if I love the characters. Other things have to be good as well, but they are not as important to the experience. I agree that the little things are important to the whole deal, but as long as they are not done poorly (e.g. unlike Xenosaga's music which made the game a bore. WHY DIDN'T THEY USE THE STUFF FROM YUKI KAJIURA?), I won't really notice them as much as the gameplay/battle mechanics or plot.

I find numbers as 5 or 6 to be unbelievable. And before anyone goes "fanboy fanboy fanboy!!!" on my behind, I'm not saying a FF game can't get a low score. But a 5 or 6 indicates that it is a game with glaring technical flaws that only very dedicated people can get enjoyment out of. This does not seem to be the case with XIII. It looks like a very pollished game, with no real technical flaws (like freezing, bad textures, lag or something like that), and it can be enjoyed if you like a story.

That's why I find low scores ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with a FF game not getting nines or tens. But fives or six, really? That Heavy Rain gets points knocked off because it occasionally freezes and has some technical hindrances, ending it in the 7 range (which is still good), yes that I can understand.

But knocking off so much points for linearity and lack of common RPG elements as to place XIII in the department of "flawed games that are only for those who are either very dedicated or don't mind playing an unpolished game"... Seems unrealistic.

7 - 8 seem far more acceptable for XIII. I mean, I hate VI as the worst game in the series, followed by X, but I wouldn't give them 5 or 6 either. They're technically well made and polished games, and deserve points for that. And no ridiculous minusses for "LINEARITY NOOOOOOOOOOEEEEEEEEESSSSSZZZ!!!!" or for Vanille, like XIII is getting.

Maybe I'll speak differently when I get the game, but for now, and from what I've seen of the game, these are my views on low scores. Seems like the only justification for the low scores is the linearity. Makes you wonder why other linear games can still score in the 8's and 9's.

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Originally Posted by Rase

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

The most important thing in Final Fantasy is the story.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Who says that?

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In an RPG the most important thing is the story. You have your characters and they have their adventure. Adventure = Story. That's the most important thing. Don't tell me you are buying a Final Fantasy because you like the mini games, side quests, et cetera more than the story. You have your character(s) and you have the story. Not without reason a good story can help if the rest is not so good.

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

I find numbers as 5 or 6 to be unbelievable. And before anyone goes "fanboy fanboy fanboy!!!" on my behind, I'm not saying a FF game can't get a low score. But a 5 or 6 indicates that it is a game with glaring technical flaws that only very dedicated people can get enjoyment out of. This does not seem to be the case with XIII. It looks like a very pollished game, with no real technical flaws (like freezing, bad textures, lag or something like that), and it can be enjoyed if you like a story.

That's why I find low scores ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with a FF game not getting nines or tens. But fives or six, really? That Heavy Rain gets points knocked off because it occasionally freezes and has some technical hindrances, ending it in the 7 range (which is still good), yes that I can understand.

But knocking off so much points for linearity and lack of common RPG elements as to place XIII in the department of "flawed games that are only for those who are either very dedicated or don't mind playing an unpolished game"... Seems unrealistic.

7 - 8 seem far more acceptable for XIII. I mean, I hate VI as the worst game in the series, followed by X, but I wouldn't give them 5 or 6 either. They're technically well made and polished games, and deserve points for that. And no ridiculous minusses for "LINEARITY NOOOOOOOOOOEEEEEEEEESSSSSZZZ!!!!" or for Vanille, like XIII is getting.

Maybe I'll speak differently when I get the game, but for now, and from what I've seen of the game, these are my views on low scores. Seems like the only justification for the low scores is the linearity. Makes you wonder why other linear games can still score in the 8's and 9's.

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I think the content of any review will be more important than the score. People often look to the latter too much.

After X-2 and XII, I welcome a linear storyline with open arms. If I wanted something non-linear or 'open-world' I'd play Dragon Age or Fallout (any of them, not just 3) again. I've always enjoyed the stories of the FF games (not so much X-2 though), anime-style melodrama and all. The battle/leveling systems I've always made it a point to master (and when possible, abuse. Hello, FF VIII!), but only so i can kill the next monster/boss as fast and flashy as humanly possible so I can find out what happens next in the story.

So if Square is looking to strip off the filters and mainline my latest fix of FF story, more power to them. My only issue with these reviews is the lack of journalistic integrity, especially from J. Parish, whom I've always respected. And I would totally call him on his bullsh_t over on his 1up review, but the site wont let me log in for some reason. Coincidence? I think not! :D

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

Maybe I'll speak differently when I get the game, but for now, and from what I've seen of the game, these are my views on low scores. Seems like the only justification for the low scores is the linearity. Makes you wonder why other linear games can still score in the 8's and 9's.

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Again you are ignoring all the other problems:

1. No towns
2. No NPC's
3. 2 AI controlled characters
4. Linear as in LITERALLY LINEAR. As in, this is a straight line boxed in adventure for 20 hours and even after that not so good. You cannot go back, you cannot revisit areas. You cannot pass go, you cannot collect 200!
5. All you do for 40 hours is battle monsters and watch a cutscene
6. No minigames
7. Side quests relegated to more fighting.
8. Story mediocre (it has been said)
9. No strategy with enemies (and from what I can gather, it is totally easy, also party heled after every battle)
10. Camera poor
11. Battle system messy (as in way too many hit points going on and all colliding...it is a mish mash)
12. Forced to 3 characters for most story
13. Shops pretty much useless and only get small amount of weapons/accessories

14. THIS ISN'T A GAME. It is a movie. I play games for gameplay and for story, not one or the other.

Furthe reading: “Why Final Fantasy XIII is a Bad Game” | Sankaku Complex

Now, you might believe the low scores are all a big conspiracy,but me, see, I have looked at the actual gameplay and I have read tons of reviews, and i have spoken to people who have played it and guess what: It is all true. These problems do exist. There is a reason for the low scores. There is a reason why the Japanese have been up in arms about it and why the western reviewers have.

Fair enough if people still want to buy it, or are still excited. That is everybodies right. But pretending things are not there and do not exist, or that reviewers are all being unfair, is wishful thinking and denial. Nobody wanted this game to be as good as 7,8,9,10 more than me. After 12 (a game with no story that plays itself via gambits) which I hated, 10-2 and all the spin offs and cash ins, I gave the series 1 last chance, and I got repaid by another MGS4, except even more dumbed down.

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

I find numbers as 5 or 6 to be unbelievable. And before anyone goes "fanboy fanboy fanboy!!!" on my behind, I'm not saying a FF game can't get a low score. But a 5 or 6 indicates that it is a game with glaring technical flaws that only very dedicated people can get enjoyment out of. This does not seem to be the case with XIII. It looks like a very pollished game, with no real technical flaws (like freezing, bad textures, lag or something like that), and it can be enjoyed if you like a story.

That's why I find low scores ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with a FF game not getting nines or tens. But fives or six, really? That Heavy Rain gets points knocked off because it occasionally freezes and has some technical hindrances, ending it in the 7 range (which is still good), yes that I can understand.

But knocking off so much points for linearity and lack of common RPG elements as to place XIII in the department of "flawed games that are only for those who are either very dedicated or don't mind playing an unpolished game"... Seems unrealistic.

7 - 8 seem far more acceptable for XIII. I mean, I hate VI as the worst game in the series, followed by X, but I wouldn't give them 5 or 6 either. They're technically well made and polished games, and deserve points for that. And no ridiculous minusses for "LINEARITY NOOOOOOOOOOEEEEEEEEESSSSSZZZ!!!!" or for Vanille, like XIII is getting.

Maybe I'll speak differently when I get the game, but for now, and from what I've seen of the game, these are my views on low scores. Seems like the only justification for the low scores is the linearity. Makes you wonder why other linear games can still score in the 8's and 9's.

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I don't want to saying 'til I've played the game for myself but I agree with you.
I think it's unfair that just cause it's a Final Fantasy title it's put on a pedistool, I think if it had a different title it wouldn't have got a 5/6 anywhere.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

9. No strategy with enemies (and from what I can gather, it is totally easy, also party heled after every battle)
10. Camera poor
11. Battle system messy (as in way too many hit points going on and all colliding...it is a mish mash)
13. Shops pretty much useless and only get small amount of weapons/accessories

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There is just one word for these points - wrong.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

1. No towns
2. No NPC's
6. No minigames

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What's all this then? YouTube - Welcome to Nautilus, The city of dreams. FFXIII(ENGLISH)

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

9. No strategy with enemies (and from what I can gather, it is totally easy, also party heled after every battle)

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Must admit I was disapointed when I heard your party automatically heals after every battle, but I'm sure you need to use strategy during the battle or heading into a boss battle.

If the problems you list FFT has the following , and does so extremely well.:
1. No towns - Once again this seems to be massively misconstrued.
2. No NPC's - FFXII was so full of useless NPCs I just stopped talking to them at all
5. All you do for 40 hours is battle monsters and watch a cutscene sounds sweet to me
6. No minigames - Excellent!
7. Side quests relegated to more fighting. - Awesome!


10. Camera poor - in the eye of the beholder
3. 2 AI controlled characters - a valid criticism. This is something that makes me leery of the game. But then again, what RPG with multiple characters released in the last few years doesn't do this? (I'm sure someone can point to an example, but you can agree this has become the industry standard)
8. Story mediocre (it has been said) - in the eye of the beholder.
9. No strategy with enemies (and from what I can gather, it is totally easy, also party heled after every battle) - from what I have heard you can slog through without one, but if you want to not slog through all the battles you need to be very involved in the combat.
11. Battle system messy (as in way too many hit points going on and all colliding...it is a mish mash) - Valid concern
12. Forced to 3 characters for most story - So?
13. Shops pretty much useless and only get small amount of weapons/accessories - if true this kind of blows, but not precedent setting.
14. THIS ISN'T A GAME. It is a movie. I play games for gameplay and for story, not one or the other. - I though you said there was too much time fighting monsters?

4. Linear as in LITERALLY LINEAR. As in, this is a straight line boxed in adventure for 20 hours and even after that not so good. You cannot go back, you cannot revisit areas. You cannot pass go, you cannot collect 200!
Thinking back to FFIV, FFV, FFVI, FFVII, FFIX and FFX I didn't go back to old areas ever until the end of the game anyways. In fact, being forced to backtrack to old areas is generally regarded as a cheep way to pad game length. To me revisiting old areas seems extremely unimportant.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Again you are ignoring all the other problems:















Furthe reading: “Why Final Fantasy XIII is a Bad Game” | Sankaku Complex

Now, you might believe the low scores are all a big conspiracy,but me, see, I have looked at the actual gameplay and I have read tons of reviews, and i have spoken to people who have played it and guess what: It is all true. These problems do exist. There is a reason for the low scores. There is a reason why the Japanese have been up in arms about it and why the western reviewers have.

Fair enough if people still want to buy it, or are still excited. That is everybodies right. But pretending things are not there and do not exist, or that reviewers are all being unfair, is wishful thinking and denial. Nobody wanted this game to be as good as 7,8,9,10 more than me. After 12 (a game with no story that plays itself via gambits) which I hated, 10-2 and all the spin offs and cash ins, I gave the series 1 last chance, and I got repaid by another MGS4, except even more dumbed down.

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If the problems you list FFT has the following , and does so extremely well.:
1. No towns - Once again this seems to be massively misconstrued.
2. No NPC's - FFXII was so full of useless NPCs I just stopped talking to them at all
5. All you do for 40 hours is battle monsters and watch a cutscene sounds sweet to me
6. No minigames - Excellent!
7. Side quests relegated to more fighting. - Awesome!


10. Camera poor
3. 2 AI controlled characters - a valid criticism. This is something that makes me leery of the game. But then again, what RPG with multiple characters released in the last few years doesn't do this? (I'm sure someone can point to an example, but you can agree this has become the industry standard)
8. Story mediocre (it has been said) - in the eye of the beholder.
9. No strategy with enemies (and from what I can gather, it is totally easy, also party heled after every battle) - from what I have heard you can slog through without one, but if you want to not slog through all the battles you need to be very involved in the combat.
11. Battle system messy (as in way too many hit points going on and all colliding...it is a mish mash) - Valid concern
12. Forced to 3 characters for most story - So?
13. Shops pretty much useless and only get small amount of weapons/accessories - if true this kind of blows, but not precedent setting.
14. THIS ISN'T A GAME. It is a movie. I play games for gameplay and for story, not one or the other. - I though you said there was too much time fighting monsters?

4. Linear as in LITERALLY LINEAR. As in, this is a straight line boxed in adventure for 20 hours and even after that not so good. You cannot go back, you cannot revisit areas. You cannot pass go, you cannot collect 200!
Thinking back to FFIV, FFV, FFVI, FFVII, FFIX and FFX I didn't go back to old areas ever until the end of the game anyways. In fact, being forced to backtrack to old areas is generally regarded as a cheep way to pad game length. To me revisiting old areas seems extremely unimportant.

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So basically your reply to the criticisms is "I do not care" and "so what if they have removed all the meat, at least there is the bone and that is awesome"

Well guess what, a lot of us do care and that is why this game is getting panned.