Did you like FINAL FANTASY XII?

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

I heard all that"it's a breathe of fresh air stuff" before on another forum back when the game first came out and it failed to move me then..and still I don't see it.
I just don't see it.

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As the old saying goes, you can't please everybody. I personally thought that this game was nothing short of a masterpiece, but we all have our likes and dislikes.

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

Maybe it's too subtle for me..as someone else pointed out maybe some of us can't see the subtlities of the game.Maybe some of us want those larger then life characters.

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The only really subtle thing about this game is the character development. The character's changes are slow, gradual, and a little underplayed compared to earlier entries.

With that said, I'd say that the plot itself and the presentation of it all was anything but subtle. Every thing felt like it was done on such a massive and epic scale that it sometimes felt like watching a massive epic adventure film like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Jurassic Park. This is probably another reason why I love this game.

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

We don't want sudued characters who are overwhelmed by the opposition ..by the judges and Cid when they had scenes.
I am not sure the subtle characterization of the heroes is deliberate either.I always felt it was due to Matusno's departure.That if he had stayed he would have done more to make the characters more dynamic like he did in FF Tactics.

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Subdued characters? You can't tell me that everytime Balthier entered the screen that he didn't completely steal the scene (except maybe with his father Cid was present). Or how about Basch, that man just oozed with pure bad a**ery. This game had characters that stuck out aside from Cid and The Judges, and besides villains usually steal the show in most other forms of entertainment. Just look at the Joker from the Dark Knight.

I really can't comment on if things would have been different if Matsuno didn't leave. It's might be true that somethings would have went quite different. I personally don't know enough about it so I can't really speculate.

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

You look at historical characters from Grant and Lee, to Rommel and Patton...I want my game characters to have this driving will and my villains as someone pointed out in another thread to be very bad..Sephiroth/Kefka/Kuja bad and Vayne just comes up way way short of those guys imo.

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It's hard for real life people to even begin to compare with those historical figures, I don't typically expect fictional ones to, but thats just me.;)

As for evil villains, Vayne was just as evil as anyone of those characters. He's responsible for countless deaths in one form or another and all in the pursut of greater power. The only real difference between Vayne and the other characters is he tries to convince people that what he's doing is the best thing in the end; hell,he believes it himself. This actually both makes him a more realistic villain and a more frightening villain. He's very much like real life dictator's that have caused terrible atrocities; a good example of one is Adolf Hitler. What he did was horrible, and terrifyingly evil, however, Hitler didn't at all think that he was evil. He thought he was in the right, he felt that his actions were justified. The highjackers in the 9-11 terrorist attacks didn't at all think that what they did was evil, they believe the U.S deserved it. The point is most evil people don't consider themselves evil. And that's what makes Vayne such and awesome and terrifingly familiar villain in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

After some of the excessive debating on the FFXIII thread..which I agree that we don't want to go to the negativity there..rotfl..and we can have a more polite debate here..rotfl...:roll2
It all does come down to opinion.



We all have our preferences about what an dynamic rpg should have and in particular what an FF should have.I want my FFs to be dynamic and epic and FFXII falls way short of the mark for me on what I perceive an FF should be.

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You are 100% absolutely right; it all really does come down to opinion. However it's still fun to discuss these topics so long as it's kept at polite and respectful level.:beer:

:redface:

That was one of the issues.

Masterpiece ?

rotlf...
The game felt unfinished to me.Probably because again..I felt Matsuno left it unfinished...

epic scale ?

rotfl...
The landscape felt large and Dalmasca looked good because of the graphics which were good for a PS2. The cutscene where Vayne visted the city gave the impression of magnificence but that was about it.

As far as Balthier.....he 's overrated....Basch was the faithful soldier wrongfully accused but still loyal..and while I respected that I didn't feel it was compelling...Fran while she had her good points we didn't know enough about why she left her home.I didn't relate to her doing so in any way.
Vaan and Penelo just didn't do anything or say anything to make me root for them.
The characters for me just didn't make me feel drawn to them.

So while the game could have been/should have been a masterpiece it simply wasn't/isn't imo.
It was just largely booring. convoluted, incomplete and underdeveloped.

oh well....and I had been a big Matsuno fan.I feel Tactics is the best FF game of all the FFs.Better than the much vaunted numbered FF games.
What happened to Matsuno I don't know.But I am not buying this..well Square wanted the games made more like an MMO or an FPS and that why is the game doesn't feel right.That's the usual excuse defenders of the game have made.
It does seem like an MMO but is that what Square really wanted ?

Why would they want that ? To appeal to World of Warcraft type fans ? Or FFXI fans ? Why should they devolve a game that had such high expectations..an Ivalice game that had a ready made fanbase who wanted an epic along the lines of Tactics ?
I'm not convinced that was the case.

shrugs.

anyway...disagreeing is the spice of life or so it seems...:roll2

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

:redface:

That was one of the issues.

Masterpiece ?

rotlf...
The game felt unfinished to me.Probably because again..I felt Matsuno left it unfinished...

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Considering the shear amount of gameplay content, story, and backstory, I felt that this game was anything but incomplete.

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

epic scale ?

rotfl...
The landscape felt large and Dalmasca looked good because of the graphics which were good for a PS2. The cutscene where Vayne visted the city gave the impression of magnificence but that was about it.

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You didn't find locations like giruvagan, the cadaract, or even the pharos to be spectular looking at all ? How about the city of Archadia, my only complaint their was that there wasn't more areas to explore in that city. I felt XII had many locations that were stunning to look at.

As for cutscenes, what about the opening of the game or the big battle at the end. How many FFs start out with such a bang and end with an even bigger bang.

Some of the battles and bosses are some of the biggest in the series, in my personal opinion. Heck just look at the final battle, sure Vayne was a bit easy (as is many final FF battles), but you can't deny the very cinematic presentation of it all.

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

As far as Balthier.....he 's overrated....Basch was the faithful soldier wrongfully accused but still loyal..and while I respected that I didn't feel it was compelling...Fran while she had her good points we didn't know enough about why she left her home.I didn't relate to her doing so in any way.
Vaan and Penelo just didn't do anything or say anything to make me root for them.
The characters for me just didn't make me feel drawn to them.

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Not much that I can say here other than I had the complete opposite opinion. Balthier was a real show stealer, Basch was a true hero and knight, Fran was well...Fran, Vaan is a hero in training and strong willed youth, Ashe is a strong and willful female protagonist, and Penelo was also in enduring character in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

So while the game could have been/should have been a masterpiece it simply wasn't/isn't imo.
It was just largely booring. convoluted, incomplete and underdeveloped.

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So while this game my not be your cup of tea, it was exciting and fun, not hard to understand, and one of the biggest games in the franchise in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

oh well....and I had been a big Matsuno fan.I feel Tactics is the best FF game of all the FFs.Better than the much vaunted numbered FF games.
What happened to Matsuno I don't know.But I am not buying this..well Square wanted the games made more like an MMO or an FPS and that why is the game doesn't feel right.That's the usual excuse defenders of the game have made.
It does seem like an MMO but is that what Square really wanted ?

Why would they want that ? To appeal to World of Warcraft type fans ? Or FFXI fans ? Why should they devolve a game that had such high expectations..an Ivalice game that had a ready made fanbase who wanted an epic along the lines of Tactics ?
I'm not convinced that was the case.

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I'm also a big Tactics fan, Tactics is what got me into the series. I first tried VII (as many did) and didn't care for it. How ever my brother I went to the store to each get a game (we were like twelve when this happened, so that was over ten years ago), and the store clerk managed to talk us into getting Tactics. We listen to him and bought, got home and played it and loved it. After that I gave VII another go and liked it and have been a FF fan since despite the fact that I don't play FF games much anymore except XII and Tactics ironically enough.

I think what they were trying to do with XII was simply to try something different. Nothing more nothing less.

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

:redface:

That was one of the issues.

Masterpiece ?

rotlf...
The game felt unfinished to me.Probably because again..I felt Matsuno left it unfinished...

epic scale ?

rotfl...

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How very condescending. Ive noticed you quite frequentley laugh at other peoples opinions.

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

It was just largely booring. convoluted, incomplete and underdeveloped.

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Opinion, opinion, opinion and opinion. There is no evidence to support that the game was incomplete and underdeveloped.

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

What happened to Matsuno I don't know.But I am not buying this..well Square wanted the games made more like an MMO or an FPS and that why is the game doesn't feel right.That's the usual excuse defenders of the game have made.
It does seem like an MMO but is that what Square really wanted ?

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If Matsuno's departure had any impact on the game, it certainly wasn't in relation to the combat system or gambits, which were designed very early in the develpment stages. I think it is very clear that SE were trying to create an intricate world that focused on gameplay and exploration, it isn't some unfortunate accident that happened due to Matsuno's departure.

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

Why would they want that ? To appeal to World of Warcraft type fans ? Or FFXI fans ? Why should they devolve a game that had such high expectations..an Ivalice game that had a ready made fanbase who wanted an epic along the lines of Tactics ?
I'm not convinced that was the case.

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Is it really that hard to believe that this is the game they intended to make? Every FF goes through a number of changes and the formula the games follow has taken numerous hits. FFIV took away any and all customization after FFIII which was built on it. FFVII thrusted the series into a futuristic world, FFV had FOUR static characters and FFVI followed with FOURTEEN. FFX scrapped the ATB system, a pretty bold move after VII, VIII and IX. FFXIII tosses away gameplay almost entirely for a story driven game. I can't say this is exactly how they planned FFXII, presumabley there would be differences, but i highly doubt they would be on such a large scale.

just a little bit.

smile

My laughing has nothing to do with what people I disagree with posts.It has to do with all the drama I went through back when I was a member of gamefaqs..and the unfair treatment I receive there.So the laughter reminds me of that and nothing more.

I've decided to stop posting about FFXII now.
I feel irritated and don't want to start a flamewar or risk getting banned.

*snip*

People who like FFXII are entitled to like it and I've said that numerous times. I respect their right to like and enjoy the game.

I've expressed my views about FFXII so there's no practical need for me to continue to participate in this discussion..:mad:


You fellas have a nice day.

WK ~ I don't mind if people you tell you stuff in private but please don't discuss personal things about other members in the thread please

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

just a little bit.

smile

My laughing has nothing to do with what people I disagree with posts.It has to do with all the drama I went through back when I was a member of gamefaqs..and the unfair treatment I receive there.So the laughter reminds me of that and nothing more.

I've decided to stop posting about FFXII now.
I feel irritated and don't want to start a flamewar or risk getting banned.

*snip*

People who like FFXII are entitled to like it and I've said that numerous times. I respect their right to like and enjoy the game.

I've expressed my views about FFXII so there's no practical need for me to continue to participate in this discussion..:mad:


You fellas have a nice day.

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I couldn't help but feel you were being condescending, it's easy to perceive it that way, but if you say it's not intended then i apologize.

My oponent lol. Love it. The sad thing is, i agree with most of what he says regarding FFXIII, i dislike it almost as much as him. *snip*

Anyway, i don't think anyone can really add anything constructive to this debate anymore which makes taking part kind of redundant. If anyone does have anymore to add then i refer them to Wolf Kanno's post on the previous page :)

WK ~ Please don't discuss private affairs of other members please. Even if someone else brought it up, it can be seen as hurtful to the member in discussion.

Far from it, actually. I will never kow tow. I will be writing 1 last post here before I give this a rest (as otherwise I will be banned...yes it's good to shut up 1 section of debate like mine but you can praise it with baseless opinions til the cows come home and that's all ok), and it will cover everything, especially this "it is opinion" cop out that many seem to adore. An utterly flawed argument which I will put to bed.

Should I get a ban for this final post so be it, but I see no reason why I should do when others have been just as bad, just in the opposite direction.

We will see I guess ;) :D It will take some time to write and gather sources (you know those things you fail to add to your posts), but to quote Marin (Marlene)- it's coming.

oh well..less reason to post about anything now...:mad2:

shrugs..
You fellas have a nice day.:mad2:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

and it will cover everything, especially this "it is opinion" cop out that many seem to adore. An utterly flawed argument which I will put to bed.

We will see I guess ;) :D It will take some time to write and gather sources (you know those things you fail to add to your posts), but to quote Marin (Marlene)- it's coming.

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I've saved you the trouble ;)

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PSOne Extreme - 10 / 10
IGN - 9.5 / 10
Thunderbolt - 9 / 10
VideoGamer - 9 / 10
Worth Playing - 9.8 / 10
GameZone - 9.8 / 10
Eurogamer - 10 / 10
1UP - 9.5 / 10
HonestGamers - 7 / 10
AllRPG - 4 / 10
GamePlasma - 9.2 / 10
VGPub - 6.2 / 10
NTSC uk - 7 / 10
Playstation Universe - 9.5 / 10
UltraNinjas - 8 / 10
Fragland - 99 / 100
Boomtown - 8 / 10
Console Obsession - 8 / 10
Futuregamez - 96 / 100
Netjak - 7.2 / 10
Mygamer - 8 / 10
Gameplanet - 5 / 5
play.tm - 89 / 100
NZGamer - 8.8 / 10
PALGN - 8.5 / 10
Armchair Empire - 7.5 / 10
JIVEMagazine - 5 / 5
Cheat Code Central - 5 / 5
Gamer Within - 9.5 / 10
GamersMark - 9 / 10
Games Are Fun - 10 / 10
Gaming Horizon - 9 / 10
AceGamez - 9 / 10
Lawrence - 9.6 / 10
Gaming Target - 10 / 10
GotNext - 5 / 5
Gamer 2.0 - 8.7 / 10
Console Gameworld - 98 / 100
Next Level Gaming - 98 / 100
RPGamer - 4.5 / 5
Game Over Online - 85 / 100
ZTGameDomain - 9.5 / 10
GamingExcellence - 9.5 / 10
GamingTrend - 93 / 100
Gaming Nexus - 9 / 10
GamerNode - 9.3 / 10
RPGFan - 97 / 100
GameSpy - 5 / 5
Gametrailers - 8 / 10
eToychest - 97 / 100
GameDaily - 9 / 10
Kikizo - 9.4 / 10
Deeko - 9.5 / 10
Game Positive - 8.7 / 10
G4 - X-Play - 5 / 5
Play Magazine - 10 / 10
Official PS Magazine - 10 / 10
Electronic Gaming - 9 / 10
Game Informer - 9.25 / 10
PSM Magazine - 9.5 / 10
GamePro - 5 / 5
Play UK - 92 / 100
Pelit - 93 / 100
Playstation 2 Mag UK - 10 / 10
PSM3 Magazine UK - 94 / 100
Edge Magazine UK - 9 / 10
PSW Magazine UK - 9 / 10
Hardcore Gamer Magazine - 4 / 5
gamesTM - 8 / 10
Games Master UK - 91 / 100

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This shows the ratings given to FFXII from over 50 well known and respected gaming review sites/magazines. So i'd just like to emphasise again that your opinion is not fact. The facts are that FFXII is regarded as a good game, based on the above scores. Still not convinced? I have more...

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FFVII - 9.8m
FFVIII - 6.0m
FFIX - 5.08m
FFT - 2.3m
FFTA - 1.1m
FFX - 6.6m
FFXII - 5.2m
FFX-2 - 3.0m
FFDOC - 1.2m
FFCC - 1.2m
FFRW - 1.0m
FFXIII - 5.5m

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Sales figures. As you can see, the series has been in decline since its most recognized game-FFVII. In fact nothing comes close to VII so does that mean every FF since VII was a horrible game? Seems to be how your logic works. Anyway, FFXII may have been just over a million short of FFX, but it surpassed FFIX, so again, does that make IX a failure? If i am to understand correctly, you stated in the FFXIII forum that games should be judged by the successes of their predecessors, or at least they should be compared. And if FFXII is such a failure then IX technically is too. In fact everything after VII failed. So i'll ask one more time, is it still fact that FFXII is a bad game, or are you ready to accept that it's your opinion.

I look forward to your final thoughts on the subject but unfortunatley i just can't keep up a debate with someone who believes his opinions are fact. So i'll be happy to continue to debate with you, as long as you drop this "my opnions are fact" nonsense

EDIT: My sources, just so you don't think i'm making stuff up:

Final Fantasy XII Critic Reviews for PlayStation 2 - GameSpot

Final Fantasy - Video Game Sales Wiki - Video Game Sales, Charts, NPD, Graphs, Video Game Figures, and more!

Those are big magazine scores and not user scores,

Cop this >

Final Fantasy XII (ps2) reviews at Metacritic.com

7.7. (lowest)

Yeah, I never understood the great ratings of FFXII.

FFXII is even the second most hated FF game here at EoFF.

Odd, my EoFF Census is telling me otherwise, Levian ;)

Oh snap! I should get back to that... :shifty:

Also considering that only 4 out of 165 voters listed FFXII as their favorite game in the counter-thread to the one I linked, I'd definitely say that's odd, Wolf Kanno!

My Census did your top three choices. :D

It may not be everyone's favorite but it could be your second or third favorite. ;)

I think you should do a census on the bottom three choices and have people vote over what they disliked the most. :D