Sephiroth... major spoilers that might change your view on who is the best villain!!!

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Is 'Sephiroth's' ability to communicate worldwide to Jenova cells really going to be your example of other people's psychic abilities?

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Quotes, from the game:

"Sephiroth learned to diffuse his will through the Lifestream."

"I became a traveller of the Lifestream... I gained the knowledge of the Ancients, and those before them..."

THAT'S a partial basis of the new psychic abilities. Lifestream=worldwide 'network' of life energy.

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But why would he be involved at all? Without Jenova he had less than human strength, why give him the credit for taking control over their shared body? Plus as I've said, why would Sephiroth choose world domination even if he was in charge?
Why would Jenova help him?

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Sephiroth - at the Temple, I believe - stated his intention to become one with the Planet, and with his mother. Jenova, was blitzed, out of commission, more of a passive player than an active part of events. That's why Sephiroth was doing the conscious stuff. He'd become a 'God', and join with Jenova. Another part of the 'greater life'.

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It suggests someone powerful. Given the sword pops up in several other places, and we actually KNOW Sephiroth was on another continent at the time, that's a fairly odd statement D.

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I'm basing it on the fact that the sword is lying there, apparently a physical presence, rather than a manifestation. It's unclear and inconclusive, but it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE for Jenova to make a fake Masamune blades and drop it in the President's office. There's no solid logical reasoning which can explain such an elaborate hoax - pretending to be Sephiroth yet still keeping a low profile, deluding people, talking about Sephiroth as being the great one, acting like he's the center of everything with only a few references to Jenova herself... unless, of course, those are really Sephiroth's words we're hearing.

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If by blob it's way out of a metal tank you mean smash it open, kill everyone it came across, assume another form, and leave giant boss monsters in it's wake by remove small body parts, then yes she did.

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And it's pure coincidence that this happens a matter of hours or days after Cloud begins hearing Sephiroth's voice in his head? I'm contending that Sephiroth's will was an important part of the escape of Jenova's body. Ther body began moving at the same time that all the Clones, and even a few SOLDIER members started to hear the call of Sephiroth.

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Well, Jenova's cels were a part of him; if someone uses steroids, does that mean that they can't really lift heavy weights? Do they have the ability to perform physcial feats, or is it the chemicals in their blood and muscles that have this power?

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No in a similar way that I wouldn't assume that someone on steroids had immense mental capacity and the power to control their mind far beyond human level and onto God-like status.

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You've mised the point completely. Jenova has the ability to cast powerful magic, create strong illusions and use psychic manipulation. Hence my belief that those powers could be passed on, in some small measure, to Sephiroth. Just in case you've forgotten, Sephiroth didn't become a God-like being just because of the Jenova cells within him; it was a part of his process of transformation which involved a number of factors, including the Lifestream. My 'steroid' comparison was just a use of a real-life example.

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I never said that was my belief, I was merely suggesting that you're arguement didn't add to the Sephiroth is in charge theory.

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Uh... as I recall, 'Jenova is the real opponent you chase around the world, who kills Aeris and uses the Black Materia' is the "theory" that's in contention. Besides, whoever said Sephiroth was 'in control'? He's obviously submissive to Jenova's wishes, all I'm saying was that he was consciously responsible for his choices, and that he is 'the Sephiroth' whose image and words appear throughout the game up 'till the Northern Crater.

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I didn't say Sephiroth was weak, I said he wasn't that strong. He was the best SOLDIER, but SOLDIER members were pretty weak back then.

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More assumption; nothing ever says that the SOLDIER members of five years before were inferior. That'd suggest that Human evolution sped up a heck of a lot, since Barret, Tifa, Yuffie, Cid etc are good rivals for contemporary SOLDIER members. If 'old' SOLDIER members were as puny as you imply, then the people of the world in general must've been really frail about the time of the Wutai war. There's no evidence whatsoever for it.
It's more or less a fact that SOLDIERs are stronger than most other fighters. The procedure for producing SOLDIRE members - Jenova treatment and Mako exposure - didn't change significantly, so far as we can tell.

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As for Cloud overpowering him, it shows Sephiroth is out of it and weakened at the time, not prepared to cope with the Lifestream.

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He was physically weakened by a wound, and mentally unfocussed because of his feelings of anger and betrayal. Doesn't mean he was mentally weakened; he just had other stuff on his mind than possible defeat at the hands of a 'mere' Human grunt.

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Quotes, from the game:

"Sephiroth learned to diffuse his will through the Lifestream."

"I became a traveller of the Lifestream... I gained the knowledge of the Ancients, and those before them..."

THAT'S a partial basis of the new psychic abilities. Lifestream=worldwide 'network' of life energy.

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He was connected to dead people by the lifestream, not people containing Jenova cells, as that wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.

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Sephiroth - at the Temple, I believe - stated his intention to become one with the Planet, and with his mother. Jenova, was blitzed, out of commission, more of a passive player than an active part of events. That's why Sephiroth was doing the conscious stuff. He'd become a 'God', and join with Jenova. Another part of the 'greater life'.

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But WHY would he want to? Because it was Jenova's wish? Which let's face it would be a better motive for Jenova than him.
Jenova wasn't out of commission, you fight four versions of her, see a trail of destruction left by someone who just happened to have started at her tank, see four giant Weapons designed to fight her released before you even see Sephiroth move.

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I'm basing it on the fact that the sword is lying there, apparently a physical presence, rather than a manifestation. It's unclear and inconclusive, but it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE for Jenova to make a fake Masamune blades and drop it in the President's office. There's no solid logical reasoning which can explain such an elaborate hoax - pretending to be Sephiroth yet still keeping a low profile, deluding people, talking about Sephiroth as being the great one, acting like he's the center of everything with only a few references to Jenova herself... unless, of course, those are really Sephiroth's words we're hearing.

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Sephiroth DID NOT put that sword there, it's presence suggests more that someone is framing Sephiroth than Sephiroth being in control.
Jenova was known for immitating others, and when discovered was attacked by both the Cetra and the planet before being caged and chopped up for 2000 years. Something tells me that MAYBE she wouldn't want to annouce she was back in action. Sephiroth's image was not only the most accessible to her, it provided the best cover for a killing spree, and drew Cloud to the Northern Crater with the Black Materia.

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And it's pure coincidence that this happens a matter of hours or days after Cloud begins hearing Sephiroth's voice in his head? I'm contending that Sephiroth's will was an important part of the escape of Jenova's body. Ther body began moving at the same time that all the Clones, and even a few SOLDIER members started to hear the call of Sephiroth.

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Actually I have another theory on that that explains a lot of unanswered questions in the game, but never mind that. The voice could just as easily be Jenovas.
The body would obviously move at the same time as the clones, the reunion would be pointless without it.

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You've mised the point completely. Jenova has the ability to cast powerful magic, create strong illusions and use psychic manipulation. Hence my belief that those powers could be passed on, in some small measure, to Sephiroth. Just in case you've forgotten, Sephiroth didn't become a God-like being just because of the Jenova cells within him; it was a part of his process of transformation which involved a number of factors, including the Lifestream. My 'steroid' comparison was just a use of a real-life example.

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As I've said repeatedly, noone else gains anything like those powers. You always said Sephiroth got them from the Lifestream (which I disagree with anytway as Cloud didn't), so you lost me with the beginning of that.
Sephiroth's God-like status was a shadow of Jenova's original power, the bonding with the planet would be just as beneficial to them both, but it's more Jenova's style than Sephiroth's.

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Uh... as I recall, 'Jenova is the real opponent you chase around the world, who kills Aeris and uses the Black Materia' is the "theory" that's in contention. Besides, whoever said Sephiroth was 'in control'? He's obviously submissive to Jenova's wishes, all I'm saying was that he was consciously responsible for his choices, and that he is 'the Sephiroth' whose image and words appear throughout the game up 'till the Northern Crater.

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The thing you chase is definately not Sephiroth, and it is almost certainly Jenova (physically at least). I therefore don't acknowledge Sephiroth being the main bad guy as the standard to which other versions are merely theories.

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More assumption; nothing ever says that the SOLDIER members of five years before were inferior. That'd suggest that Human evolution sped up a heck of a lot, since Barret, Tifa, Yuffie, Cid etc are good rivals for contemporary SOLDIER members. If 'old' SOLDIER members were as puny as you imply, then the people of the world in general must've been really frail about the time of the Wutai war. There's no evidence whatsoever for it.

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SOLDIER members aren't all that strong in present day, and human experimentation took giant leaps five years before after the fire. If Cloud's story of Kalm is directly taken, and his fighting ability is a mirror of Zack's then they definately weren't all that strong.

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He was physically weakened by a wound, and mentally unfocussed because of his feelings of anger and betrayal. Doesn't mean he was mentally weakened; he just had other stuff on his mind than possible defeat at the hands of a 'mere' Human grunt.

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He just burned down a town, took a monster out of it's cage he thought was his mother, beheaded it, then got thrown into something that took Cloud's ability to walk and talk in a matter of days for five years. Just what do you class as mental weakening?

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Sephiroth's God-like status was a shadow of Jenova's original power

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Oh? She survived a heck of a fall, cast some illusions, made some peope sick and insane, then got stuck in solid rock. Mmmhmmm.

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SOLDIER members aren't all that strong in present day, and human experimentation took giant leaps five years before after the fire. If Cloud's story of Kalm is directly taken, and his fighting ability is a mirror of Zack's then they definately weren't all that strong.

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Compare Sephiroth to Cloud in that sequence. 'Sides, those could even have been Cloud's real stats for all we know. He's one mess-up kid, after all.

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noone else gains anything like those powers. You always said Sephiroth got them from the Lifestream (which I disagree with anytway as Cloud didn't)

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Of course. cloud was little more than a normal Human, so he was incapable of withstanding that energy. Sephiroth, on the other hand, has all those superior Jenova powers, so he was able to survive. The fact that he lasted all those years in the Lifestream without dying are testament to that.

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He just burned down a town, took a monster out of it's cage he thought was his mother, beheaded it, then got thrown into something that took Cloud's ability to walk and talk in a matter of days for five years. Just what do you class as mental weakening?

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'Totally cheesed off' doesn't equate to 'weak'. :p

Final Fantasies are full of Human adversaries who gain extraordinary powers and abilities through supernatural means. Why is it so hard to believe Sephiroth could've been the same?
Spoilers for lots of FFsZeromus was the spirit of a dead Lunarian; but could transform into a powerful beast; X-Death was a tree, for cryin' out loud, yet the power of Enuo and the Void infused him. Kefka unleashed and absorbed the strength of the Goddesses and was able to transform, blow stuff up etc. Ultimecia compressed time, absorbed energy and also transformed; Kuja merely had to get really, REALLY annoyed and he was able to blitz AN ENTIRE WORLD.
See? Sephiroth is already stronger than other Humans; it's easily conceivable that he could, as the previous FF nemesi did, gain new powers from a pre-existing/latent source; namely, Jenova's cells and the Lifestream, and use it in new and exciting ways.

This debate is beginning to bore me. I'm not fussed about what others believe; personal opinion and all that. I have a clear and resolvable view of FFVII, one which answers all the questions for me, and I'm happy with it.

People get that uptight by a debate about a videogame? It's not like Jenova really exists or something...

Just so you know (in general)... I posted *SPOILER* in the thread title, so there's no need for the tags.

Well, that's all well and good for FFVII spoilers, but major revelations about other FFs need to be tagged.
I, too, dislike debates that turn nasty. Trying to keep this place civil is a major part of being a Knight.

There's one really fundamental flaw in PhoenixAsh's argument, though: it's assuming that Jenova is just as pwoerful as she always was, and didn't lose anything as a result of the many defeats and setbacks she suffered. This is patently false.
After she was originally defeated, the Weapons lay dormant - she wasn't a threat any longer. However, once Gast excavated her, and even when she busted out of Shinra, the Weapons still don't give a monkey's. Why? Because she's still a weakened shadow of her former self. It's not until the Reunion takes place and the Black Materia is used that the Weapons come to life. They waited 'till there was a real threat to the Planet... obviously, there wasn't a direct threat before then. If Jenova was as strong as ever, and hadn't lost anything, then Weapon would've got its groove on just as soon as Gast went diggin' in the dirt.;)

Hmm...ok, I'm late again, as usual. I'm not even going to bother reading through all that crap again...as usual. :D

Anyways, some things I noticed:

D, you seem to think Sephiroth acted for his own benefit throughout most, if not all, the game. This I disagree with. I do not think Sephiroth was a physical slave of Jenova, though maybe a mental. When Sephiroth broke down at Nibelheim, he went insane. This is understood, correct? Then, Sephiroth went to the Reactor to free his "mother." He had to free "mother" and kill the "traitors to the Cetra." Where did he all of the sudden get these ideas from? Jenova.
Even though she was not a physical presence throughout the game except for a few boss battles, I believe she indeed was the "behind the scenes" bad guy. When Sephiroth went insane, Jenova felt that weakness. Though confined, she could still communicate with those who had Jenova cells, moreso with Sephiroth(and Cloud...the more successful clones). She fed him those lies about the "traitors to the Cetra" and her being his "mother," and may have even used some mind-control powers, though that is pure speculation. To sum it up, I believe Jenova, in Sephiroth's weakened mental state, perverted and twisted the truth until it seemed to him that freeing Jenova and destroying Nibelheim was the...right thing to do.

For the rest of the game, I'm open to debate about(especially the famous Sephy clone, Jenova, or manifestation debate), but the above is what I feel the most strongly.

-Raistlin

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There's one really fundamental flaw in PhoenixAsh's argument, though: it's assuming that Jenova is just as pwoerful as she always was, and didn't lose anything as a result of the many defeats and setbacks she suffered. This is patently false.

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However, it's a moot point. Yes, she may very well have been weaker, but unless we can calculate exactly how much and how that would effect what she did, then that argument has no bearing.

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They waited 'till there was a real threat to the Planet... obviously, there wasn't a direct threat before then. If Jenova was as strong as ever, and hadn't lost anything, then Weapon would've got its groove on just as soon as Gast went diggin' in the dirt.

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However, Jenova could also have just as likely waited for the right time to mount her attack: when Sephiroth got the Black Materia and summoned Meteor. The Weapons didn't react to Jenova because Jenova wasn't doing anything. There's no absolute proof that Jenova was weaker or not.

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D, you seem to think Sephiroth acted for his own benefit throughout most, if not all, the game. This I disagree with. I do not think Sephiroth was a physical slave of Jenova, though maybe a mental. When Sephiroth broke down at Nibelheim, he went insane. This is understood, correct? Then, Sephiroth went to the Reactor to free his "mother." He had to free "mother" and kill the "traitors to the Cetra." Where did he all of the sudden get these ideas from? Jenova.

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I agree with you totally. Jenova was able to deceive the Cetra, a race with pretty strong mental abilities; I agree that her influence was behind a lot of Sephiroth's actions.

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Totally cheesed off' doesn't equate to 'weak'.

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Decapitating a monster that you think is your own mother because you want to be reunited with her doesn't equate to totally cheesed off either.

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Oh? She survived a heck of a fall, cast some illusions, made some peope sick and insane, then got stuck in solid rock. Mmmhmmm.

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If that's how you want to phrase travelling through space, crashing into a planet leaving a whole big enough to risk it's destruction, taking on an entire race and giant monsters that take city sized cannons to kill and surviving, then surviving two thousand years and still be able to jump right back into travelling across the globe and fighting rebel groups single handedly (literally).

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Of course. cloud was little more than a normal Human, so he was incapable of withstanding that energy. Sephiroth, on the other hand, has all those superior Jenova powers, so he was able to survive. The fact that he lasted all those years in the Lifestream without dying are testament to that.

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Cloud was THE successful clone, he was just as advanced as Sephiroth. The lifestream doesn't kill people anyway (as far as I know), it just destroys their minds. It doesn't make them stronger, which you suggest.

Yamenko answered most other things I think.

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If that's how you want to phrase travelling through space, crashing into a planet leaving a whole big enough to risk it's destruction, taking on an entire race and giant monsters that take city sized cannons to kill and surviving, then surviving two thousand years and still be able to jump right back into travelling across the globe and fighting rebel groups single handedly (literally).

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Well, evidence suggests that Jenova fell to land encased in an asteroid or comet. Evidence, you ask?
If there wasn't something 'shielding' her, she'd have been annihilated by either (a) the heat or (b) the sheer force of the impact. Jenova, as we know, is vulnerable to weapons and magic, neither of which compare to meteoric forces. Evidently, it wasn't just her that made the crater, although that was how she made her arrival. Anyway.
She didn't 'take on' the Cetra, at least not at first. She deceived them, evidence of her extraordinary powers of illusion; but when they actually fought back, she lost. She never 'took on' the Weapons, either. By the time they were created, she was already sealed away. As for fighting the rebel groups - that was three people, hardly an incomparable force.

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Cloud was THE successful clone, he was just as advanced as Sephiroth.

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Nonsense. Cloud was physically and mentally weaker; he had no will of his own until he learned to break free. He was the only 'clone' that made it all the way to the Reunion, after Sephiroth killed the others; that's where his success ended. Oh, he also had at least a little sanity left, which distinguished hhim from the other Clones.

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The lifestream doesn't kill people anyway (as far as I know), it just destroys their minds. It doesn't make them stronger, which you suggest.

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Yeah, I know it destroys their minds. However, in the game Sephiroth statess that he learned from the raw knowledge floating around in the Lifestream; he was able to (at least partially) resist the inundation of knowledge, THAT'S what's usually so dangerous about it. Knew knowledge made him stronger; also, SOLDIER members are showered with Mako energy in order to make them stronger; this actually induces physical transformations, too - remember Cloud's shiny blue eyes?

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Yamenko answered most other things I think.

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Has someone failed to notice the Great Nameswapping Saga? :p

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Well, evidence suggests that Jenova fell to land encased in an asteroid or comet. Evidence, you ask?
If there wasn't something 'shielding' her, she'd have been annihilated by either (a) the heat or (b) the sheer force of the impact. Jenova, as we know, is vulnerable to weapons and magic, neither of which compare to meteoric forces. Evidently, it wasn't just her that made the crater, although that was how she made her arrival.

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There is NO proof, that is pure speculation. I believe Jenova was/is far more powerful than you think.

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She didn't 'take on' the Cetra, at least not at first. She deceived them, evidence of her extraordinary powers of illusion; but when they actually fought back, she lost.

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If by "losing" you mean single-handedly killing off 99.999% percent of an entire RACE of people before finally being stopped and encased in rock far below the surface so she couldn't possible escape...if that's outright "losing" then yes, I agree.

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Nonsense. Cloud was physically and mentally weaker; he had no will of his own until he learned to break free. He was the only 'clone' that made it all the way to the Reunion, after Sephiroth killed the others; that's where his success ended. Oh, he also had at least a little sanity left, which distinguished hhim from the other Clones.

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Cloud was mentally weaker, eh? Then why did he not break down under Jenova's influence like Sephiroth did?

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Yeah, I know it destroys their minds. However, in the game Sephiroth statess that he learned from the raw knowledge floating around in the Lifestream; he was able to (at least partially) resist the inundation of knowledge, THAT'S what's usually so dangerous about it.

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Yes, and how come Sephiroth, unlike the many before him, was able to block himself off from being mako poisoned? Jenova.

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Has someone failed to notice the Great Nameswapping Saga?

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Hehe, I guess so. That's why I included "-Raistlin" at the end of my last post. :D

-Raistlin

Oh I knew it wasn't Yamenko, but am I Hell gonna bother to memorise the name changes, if you wanna be referred to by your real SN use your own SN.

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She didn't 'take on' the Cetra, at least not at first. She deceived them, evidence of her extraordinary powers of illusion; but when they actually fought back, she lost. She never 'took on' the Weapons, either. By the time they were created, she was already sealed away. As for fighting the rebel groups - that was three people, hardly an incomparable force.

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She decieved them, killed most of them, and even when they went into full force the planet still saw fit to build at least five monsters, all of which capable of wiping out cities.
Three people which she fought using only her hand, AFTER it was removed. Plus countless guards and soldiers.

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Nonsense. Cloud was physically and mentally weaker; he had no will of his own until he learned to break free. He was the only 'clone' that made it all the way to the Reunion, after Sephiroth killed the others; that's where his success ended. Oh, he also had at least a little sanity left, which distinguished hhim from the other Clones.

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Sit Cloud and Seph down for a sanity test, my moneys on Cloud. Let them fight hand to hand, my moneys still on Cloud. He justified both of these things in Nibelheim, and he is unbelievably stronger in present day.

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Yeah, I know it destroys their minds. However, in the game Sephiroth statess that he learned from the raw knowledge floating around in the Lifestream; he was able to (at least partially) resist the inundation of knowledge, THAT'S what's usually so dangerous about it. Knew knowledge made him stronger; also, SOLDIER members are showered with Mako energy in order to make them stronger; this actually induces physical transformations, too - remember Cloud's shiny blue eyes?

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But how can you justify Sephiroth being mentally strong? At what point in the game does he show any sign of having any kind of mental strength? That arguement is assumption, based on assumption.
Shiny eyes hardly compare to sprouting wings and growing about thirty feet taller.

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There is NO proof, that is pure speculation. I believe Jenova was/is far more powerful than you think.

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Sure, but if she could survive that kind of punishment, then no amount of swords and fists would pose any kind of risk.

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Cloud was mentally weaker, eh? Then why did he not break down under Jenova's influence like Sephiroth did?

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He DID break down; he was directly manipulated many times.

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Yes, and how come Sephiroth, unlike the many before him, was able to block himself off from being mako poisoned? Jenova.

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That's exactly what I was arguing. Jenova's superhuman strength and resilience reinforced him.

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Sit Cloud and Seph down for a sanity test, my moneys on Cloud. Let them fight hand to hand, my moneys still on Cloud. He justified both of these things in Nibelheim, and he is unbelievably stronger in present day.

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There's a reason Sephiroth was acknowledged as the world's greatest soldier while Cloud failed to gain entry into SOLDIER.

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Sure, but if she could survive that kind of punishment, then no amount of swords and fists would pose any kind of risk.

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You keep telling us she's weakened, which is true. Besides she never fully gets back to her true strength. The closest she gets she still has a human part attached, and humans are vulnerable to that sort of attack.

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He DID break down; he was directly manipulated many times.

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So if you accept Jenova could control him, why do you argue that she would relinquish this control over the matter of who gets to become a God and fulfill her ambition to take over the planet and (probably) get revenge on humanity.

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That's exactly what I was arguing. Jenova's superhuman strength and resilience reinforced him.

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Which it didn't do for Cloud...

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There's a reason Sephiroth was acknowledged as the world's greatest soldier while Cloud failed to gain entry into SOLDIER.

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There is. Jenova. Which Cloud got AFTER he applied for SOLDIER, and AFTER Sephiroth was credited with anything other than being dead.

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You keep telling us she's weakened, which is true. Besides she never fully gets back to her true strength. The closest she gets she still has a human part attached, and humans are vulnerable to that sort of attack.

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Jenova BIRTH, LIFE and DEATH have no Human components, yet are vulnerable; however, this is a random tangent and not of strict relevance to that elusive gem known as 'the point'.

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So if you accept Jenova could control him, why do you argue that she would relinquish this control over the matter of who gets to become a God and fulfill her ambition to take over the planet and (probably) get revenge on humanity.

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I don't think she had much of a choice. He was capable of making that transformation; she was going to bond with him and become a part of his 'godliness' once it was all done.

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That's exactly what I was arguing. Jenova's superhuman strength and resilience reinforced him.

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Which it didn't do for Cloud...

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Of course. Sephiroth has MORE JENOVA IN HIM, he's a stronger being. If Cloud and Sephiroth were equals, Sephiroth would have died, swiftly. You want more proof that the Lifestream can provide power and knowledge? The entire purpose of summoning the meteor was to injure the Planet, unleashing a huge amount of Mako energy that Sephiroth would absorb to complete his transformation. That's stated clearly. Also, when Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells, he naturally went crazy and wanted to use the Mako Cannon to deliver a surge of Mako to the North Cave. "My son is depending on the energy... I'm just giving him a helping hand".

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There's a reason Sephiroth was acknowledged as the world's greatest soldier while Cloud failed to gain entry into SOLDIER.

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There is. Jenova. Which Cloud got AFTER he applied for SOLDIER, and AFTER Sephiroth was credited with anything other than being dead.

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Isn't that what I was saying all along? Sephiroth's "Jenova component" made him stronger than any Human. After the Nibelheim disaster, Cloud got used for the experiment, in Hojo's attempt to 'recreate' Sephiroth. Cloud, too, became stronger; but not quite so strong as Sephiroth.

Think about THIS for a second... the individual pieces of Jenova that you fight throughout the game - BIRTH, LIFE and DEATH - they're quite strong, but not indestructible. Together, they make up almost the entirety of Jenova's body, save for the cells in the Clones, in Sephiroth and others extracted by Shinra. However, a normal Human who's injected himself with Jenova's cells and has been exposed to Mako radiation can become far stronger than these large parts of her body. I'm talking about Hojo. He OD'd on Jenova cells; I'm assuming he injected more than were used in regular SOLDIRERs or Clones - and also had significant Mako exposure. As a result, he was able to transform himself - something you, PhoenixAsh, claimed is impossible for any except Jenova herself. I think this reinforces my belief that a combination of Human life, Jenova cells and Mako energy has the potential to become more powerful than Jenova in her weakened state.