Why did it happen to Vivi? (spoiler warning)

when this kind of theory appears , also appears the kind of people that says "Vivi´s body was not there?, a lot of litle vivis and some melancolic lines don´t mean that vivis dead, he maybe is in hawai with the mother of his children taking a nap, because there´s no dialogue that say´s "vivi´s is dead", but... Zidane was dead at the end, and that guy that looks like him is shadow from VI , he is a secret character"... for god sake, it´s so obvious. How many of you think that (Excuse the change of topic) Frodo from The lord of the ring went in the little boat and live happy in a beach with the elders ?, It´s call "simbolic death", crossing a lake in a boat is just like vivi´s confussing clones . I think vivis death was the best thing about the ending (the kiss was a shame).

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Originally Posted by lordblazer

except everyone actually liked him lol no one likes cait sith

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He was my fave FFVIIer!

You people are nuts vivi did not die because when they beat necron and stopped the lifa tree from making mist the souls couldn’t pass on to terra because terra dident exsit anymore and zidane was only trapped in the lifa tree for 9 months my vivi got It off with zidanes sister. Anyway vivi was a faild prototype and had also descovrd the meaning of life. There are other powers in that world other than necron that might have changed vivi or he was never dsigned to stop or because he was so powerful his will stopped him from dieing like sephiroth when he was thone into the mako reactor by cloud. Also you might not of noticed that it takes diffent races diffent amount of time to reach the right stage.

To truly debate what happened to Vivi, I consider a few points

1- For something to die it must first be living, Yes?

2- For something to be living it must display 7 attributes

-It must move, yes Vivi does move, but we must consider that since he was made, i.e. a Puppet he isn't moving a body.
-It must be able to reproduce, i'm not to sure how somethings that dies after, is it a year?, is supposed to sexually mature
-It must be sensitive to external stimulus, true yes he does do that, but as we've ascertained Vivi is (essentially) a machine a so reacting to information
-It must require and use nutrition, I don't remember if he actually eats, also if he is a machine no such nutrition is required
-It must produce extretative products, i.e. get rid of waste product, If vivi is a machine, having a [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] would have no plausible benefit, also if he has no need to eat he will have no waste products as a result
-It must respire, he is machine, ergo he does not eat, ergo he can't convert it into energy
-It must grow, since Vivi "stops" after a year, little growth, if any will result, also if he is a machine then he cannot grow

-But then again if he is a product of mist, a chemical unbeknowest to man, and its beneficial effects are unknown, who knows maybe its like that gunk with the alien inside that actually grows

-So If he isn't living, he cannot die. Point in case he is said to "stop"

-We haven't enough knowledge to define "stopping" perhaps this is the point at which change in the subsystems halts, then this is not dieing

-Furthermore how do you define dieing?

-Finally since Vivi is indeed a videogame character (and at the disposal of Square to be plucked for sequels, explained at their discretion, -FFIX was a dreeeeeam!!!!) he never existed except in a different context, he couldn't possibly have lived, and so not died!!!

You guys are so immature. It was just a boss battle like Beatrix when she did Climhazzard and killed the characters but she meerly wiped them out. They still lived after the battle but were very weak.

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Originally Posted by FiragaBreak

You guys are so immature. It was just a boss battle like Beatrix when she did Climhazzard and killed the characters but she meerly wiped them out. They still lived after the battle but were very weak.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

[Stuff]

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...Jesus God.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-It must move, yes Vivi does move, but we must consider that since he was made, i.e. a Puppet he isn't moving a body.

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A body is defined as follows: "The material organized substance of an animal, whether living or dead, as distinguished from the spirit, or vital principle; the physical person."

The Black Mages had physical forms, despite having been manufactured out of condensed Spirit Energy that was unable to reach the core of Gaia. These forms could die, as we see many do during the game.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-It must be able to reproduce, i'm not to sure how somethings that dies after, is it a year?, is supposed to sexually mature

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Uh... why? Fruit Flies live for about 13 days and generally reach sexual maturity by the end of the fifth. Mice generally reach sexual maturity within 35 days. How can you define the physiology of a being whose anatomy you know next to nothing about, nor even know requires sexual interaction in order to reproduce in the first place, as some organisms reproduce through fission ("splitting")? Even supposing it did, you're not accounting for the possibility of asexual reproduction such as budding (basically, growing a new organism off of one's own body).

In any event, the game tells us that Vivi has sons. While he may have simply compressed more Spirit Energy with the machines in Dali to make them and have sired them thus, again, we don't know enough about the Black Mages' physiology (mustless Vivi's, who was different from the other Black Mages to begin with) to make any kind of determination about him not being able to reproduce in some manner.

By the way -- and not that it's relevant, really -- Vivi was 9 years old.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-It must be sensitive to external stimulus, true yes he does do that, but as we've ascertained Vivi is (essentially) a machine a so reacting to information

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The bodies of you or I could be defined as machines: Link to the definition of "machine." That definition uses metal objects to illustrate what a machine is. This does not mean that a machine is made of metal, rock, or some non-organic material. The organs that sustain our life are machines.

By the way, Homo Sapien bodies will also just respond to stimuli, even if the consciousness of the owner doesn't feel it. You can pinch the arm of a sleeping person and they may flinch or jerk the arm away. However, were they in one of the deeper stages of sleep in which they were not conscious, they wouldn't have felt it, despite their body reacting.

For that matter, it's never implied that Vivi's body is made of metal or rock. We only know that the stagnant Spirit Energy of Gaia was compressed to form Black Mages' bodies.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-It must require and use nutrition, I don't remember if he actually eats, also if he is a machine no such nutrition is required

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Again, our bodies are machines, yet we require nutrition. Also, yes, Vivi is shown eating during the game at the banquet in Lindblum after the Festival of the Hunt.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-It must produce extretative products, i.e. get rid of waste product, If vivi is a machine, having a [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] would have no plausible benefit, also if he has no need to eat he will have no waste products as a result

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Again, our bodies are machines, yet we excrete waste by-products. Also, once again, Vivi is shown eating during the game.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-It must respire, he is machine, ergo he does not eat, ergo he can't convert it into energy

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Just refer to my previous points.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-It must grow, since Vivi "stops" after a year, little growth, if any will result, also if he is a machine then he cannot grow

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Again, he's already nine years old, not one. By the way, Homo Sapiens and many other organisms develop a lot in one year, though, again, we don't know the physiology of Black Mages. In any event, were there any growth, your point would be defeated. As for the machine matter, you already know what I would say in regard to that.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-But then again if he is a product of mist, a chemical unbeknowest to man, and its beneficial effects are unknown, who knows maybe its like that gunk with the alien inside that actually grows

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Mist is the stagnant souls/Spirit Energy of Gaia. It's the very energy of life to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-So If he isn't living, he cannot die. Point in case he is said to "stop"

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"Stopping" is synonomous with "ceasing," "perishing," "dying," "and "expiring." By the way, the Black Mages were the ones to refer to dying as to "stop moving," yet even Black Mage No. 288 establishes that it's the same thing as dying:

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Black Mage No. 288
"Hello. Nice to see you again."

Vivi
"Um... I wanted to ask you something."

Black Mage No. 288
"What is it?"

Vivi
"I was wondering how many people have...stopped...moving."

Black Mage No. 288
"You're very kind to use our words."
"But you already know what it means to live...and to die."
"You're asking about our friends who have 'died,' not 'stopped.'"

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-We haven't enough knowledge to define "stopping" perhaps this is the point at which change in the subsystems halts, then this is not dieing

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We would be insulting ourselves to conclude that we don't know what "stopping" entails.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-Furthermore how do you define dieing?

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It's defined rather simply as "The act of expiring" or "The passing from life into death."

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-Finally since Vivi is indeed a videogame character (and at the disposal of Square to be plucked for sequels, explained at their discretion, -FFIX was a dreeeeeam!!!!) he never existed except in a different context, he couldn't possibly have lived, and so not died!!!

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The matter was being examined in the context of the story, thus, such a point as this is outside the realm of that which was being debated.


In any event, to conclude that Vivi didn't die/stop moving/expire/cease to be/pass from life into death would be to ignore what the game heavily implies. It's already been established before the game's ending that the lifespan of the Black Mages is more limited than that of the other dominant races on Gaia (one of the only things about the Black Mages' anatomy that we are aware of), and we have him speaking during the game's ending before the Play, ending his dialogue with a farewell to everyone followed by "My memories will be part of the sky...." That more or less says "I'm dying. Farewell," would you not say?

Added to this is the fact that he isn't even present during the ending. His sons are, but not him. Had he been present, it's safe to assume he would have been pointed out.

Added to this is the fact that he isn't even present during the ending. His sons are, but not him. Had he been present, it's safe to assume he would have been pointed out.

That's a really good point. I think it's pretty obvious that Vivi died.

Nice analysis by the way. There was something terribly terribly wrong with the last poster's logic.

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Originally Posted by Gwelenguchenkus

That's a really good point. I think it's pretty obvious that Vivi died.

Nice analysis by the way. There was something terribly terribly wrong with the last poster's logic.

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Thanks for the compliment. ^^

That really was good, Squall of SeeD. Anyway, yes, its quite obvious that Vivi did in fact "stop". True, it was sad, however it was fitting, considering everything he went through through out the game. It gave him the true understanding of life and death.

Vivi's a manufactured construct, be he's also a living being. Just because someone is made doesn't mean they aren't alive, at least not in fantasy anyway. Just like Zidane, just like the Orcs of Tolkien's work, Vivi was created in order to serve some purpose - he was a 'prototype' for the mass-produced Black Mage soldiers seen elsewhere in the game. The mass-produced mages have an artificially restricted lifespan, dying a year after they gain consciousness. Vivi, being a different model, would likely be designed to expire at another time. Apparently, about 10 years.

Vivi's a living, breathing, eating, sleeping, dreaming, fully self-aware biological being. He's in no way a robot, mannequin or synthetic automaton. He was made from the 'stuff of life', Mist, which is essentially 'spirit energy', much like the Lifestream in FFVII or Pyreflies in FFX.

As for Vivi reproducing... he clearly found a way, although we may never know how. He wanted to live on in some way, even knowing he was mortal. Maybe there are female Black Mages? It doesn't make sense, since Kuja only wanted to use them as weapons... however, they exceeded their genetic "programming" by establishing a community and a peaceful social structure. Clearly, they aren't completely constrained by their "schematics". It's possible they reproduced asexually somehow (I know Vivi's male, but that's not the point here), perhaps by laying eggs which would hatch into 'clones' of themselves, or perhaps they spore somehow.

I guess all I wanted to say is that

(1) Vivi is a living being, not a machine

(2) "Life finds a way".

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

[Stuff]

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

...Jesus God.

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Not quite sure I said that.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-It must move, yes Vivi does move, but we must consider that since he was made, i.e. a Puppet he isn't moving a body.

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

...A body is defined as follows: "The material organized substance of an animal, whether living or dead, as distinguished from the spirit, or vital principle; the physical person."

The Black Mages had physical forms, despite having been manufactured out of condensed Spirit Energy that was unable to reach the core of Gaia. These forms could die, as we see many do during the game.

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Your own quotation is against you there, you said "The material organized substance of an animal, whether living or dead, as distinguished from the spirit, or vital principle; the physical person"

Surely "Mist" is not animal matter. Even if a condensed form of it, wouldn't take form of cell with any sort of function, let alone an entire bodily system. Because simply if you compress or condense energy (e.g. "life energy") it is fairly obvious you aren't going to get cell tissue forming

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-It must be able to reproduce, i'm not to sure how somethings that dies after, is it a year?, is supposed to sexually mature

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

...Uh... why? Fruit Flies live for about 13 days and generally reach sexual maturity by the end of the fifth. Mice generally reach sexual maturity within 35 days. How can you define the physiology of a being whose anatomy you know next to nothing about, nor even know requires sexual interaction in order to reproduce in the first place, as some organisms reproduce through fission ("splitting")? Even supposing it did, you're not accounting for the possibility of asexual reproduction such as budding (basically, growing a new organism off of one's own body).

In any event, the game tells us that Vivi has sons. While he may have simply compressed more Spirit Energy with the machines in Dali to make them and have sired them thus, again, we don't know enough about the Black Mages' physiology (mustless Vivi's, who was different from the other Black Mages to begin with) to make any kind of determination about him not being able to reproduce in some manner.

By the way -- and not that it's relevant, really -- Vivi was 9 years old.

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Yes fruit flies do sexually mature very fast, but that is a far less complicated animal with a substantialy smaller body mass, for that to happen to a creature of, even dog size, the change would require too much energy to be performed in that time, thus killing the animal (see some weed killers they force the same thing upon plants)

also if Vivi is said to have sons, considering he was made, they could have been talking in a different context, i.e. Several clones of the same thing are said to be "Brothers" despite not being born from the same mother or any mother for that matter.

Further more, Vivi is said to be a Black mage, and intented only to live for only one year (like the others) if he is in fact nine as you say (which i doubt) Then It can safely be assumed that he was not made in the same way as the others, i.e. not out of mist, and so not having the (life emulating) properties of mist, and so never live and so never die

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-It must be sensitive to external stimulus, true yes he does do that, but as we've ascertained Vivi is (essentially) a machine a so reacting to information

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

...The bodies of you or I could be defined as machines: Link to the definition of "machine." That definition uses metal objects to illustrate what a machine is. This does not mean that a machine is made of metal, rock, or some non-organic material. The organs that sustain our life are machines.

By the way, Homo Sapien bodies will also just respond to stimuli, even if the consciousness of the owner doesn't feel it. You can pinch the arm of a sleeping person and they may flinch or jerk the arm away. However, were they in one of the deeper stages of sleep in which they were not conscious, they wouldn't have felt it, despite their body reacting.

For that matter, it's never implied that Vivi's body is made of metal or rock. We only know that the stagnant Spirit Energy of Gaia was compressed to form Black Mages' bodies.

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The conscious knowledge of stimulus is not fixed with detection of stimulus by the body.

The game never suggests that Vivi isn't made from Metal/Rock/Plastics
(To be pathetic)

Yes true, you could define the human organs as machines, a definition of a machine can be "something that convery one form of energy to another" in that case almost everything is a machine. But to get to the point my definition of Machine is quite apparant, I mean a system intended with beneficial function or reproduction of a function for a purpose usually of man made materials.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-It must require and use nutrition, I don't remember if he actually eats, also if he is a machine no such nutrition is required

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

...Again, our bodies are machines, yet we require nutrition. Also, yes, Vivi is shown eating during the game at the banquet in Lindblum after the Festival of the Hunt.

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O.k. maybe Vivi does eat in the game, but this is not always associated with Respiration, nor, does it suggest his need for nutrition. If Vivi is a machine (the definition I use) then he does not require nutrition as nutrition is a vehicle for a reaction involving respiration, he may indeed require a power source of some kind.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-It must produce extretative products, i.e. get rid of waste product, If vivi is a machine, having a [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] would have no plausible benefit, also if he has no need to eat he will have no waste products as a result

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

...Again, our bodies are machines, yet we excrete waste by-products. Also, once again, Vivi is shown eating during the game.

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I've explained this.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-It must respire, he is machine, ergo he does not eat, ergo he can't convert it into energy

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

...Just refer to my previous points.

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Yeah, refer to my counter points also

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-It must grow, since Vivi "stops" after a year, little growth, if any will result, also if he is a machine then he cannot grow

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

...Again, he's already nine years old, not one. By the way, Homo Sapiens and many other organisms develop a lot in one year, though, again, we don't know the physiology of Black Mages. In any event, were there any growth, your point would be defeated. As for the machine matter, you already know what I would say in regard to that.

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Oh perhaps yes were there any growth, yes it would defeat the point. But since I have debated he is a machine, It seems foolish to continue wasting time with this.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-But then again if he is a product of mist, a chemical unbeknowest to man, and its beneficial effects are unknown, who knows maybe its like that gunk with the alien inside that actually grows

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

...Mist is the stagnant souls/Spirit Energy of Gaia. It's the very energy of life to begin with.

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I have addressed this

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-So If he isn't living, he cannot die. Point in case he is said to "stop"

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

..."Stopping" is synonomous with "ceasing," "perishing," "dying," "and "expiring." By the way, the Black Mages were the ones to refer to dying as to "stop moving," yet even Black Mage No. 288 establishes that it's the same thing as dying:.

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Black Mage No. 288
"Hello. Nice to see you again."

Vivi
"Um... I wanted to ask you something."

Black Mage No. 288
"What is it?"

Vivi
"I was wondering how many people have...stopped...moving."

Black Mage No. 288
"You're very kind to use our words."
"But you already know what it means to live...and to die."
"You're asking about our friends who have 'died,' not 'stopped.'"

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refering as fact about Being sometimes related to something, I like taking a metaphor as literal fact. Quite simply stopping, isn't dieing because the two words aren't the same, they just aren't and since he is a machine he cannot die, he can only stop.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-We haven't enough knowledge to define "stopping" perhaps this is the point at which change in the subsystems halts, then this is not dieing

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

...We would be insulting ourselves to conclude that we don't know what "stopping" entails..

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To halt, i.e. to cease movement in a particular direction
To desist, i.e. to "stop" making poor counter arguments

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-Furthermore how do you define dieing?

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

...It's defined rather simply as "The act of expiring" or "The passing from life into death.".

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I was speaking just of arguing against the claim he wont come back, to die, they are devoid of life, and so give them back life they aren't

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

-Finally since Vivi is indeed a videogame character (and at the disposal of Square to be plucked for sequels, explained at their discretion, -FFIX was a dreeeeeam!!!!) he never existed except in a different context, he couldn't possibly have lived, and so not died!!!

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

...The matter was being examined in the context of the story, thus, such a point as this is outside the realm of that which was being debated..

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A yes but, at this point I was bored of arguing and to not take this a joke, is quite silly

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

...In any event, to conclude that Vivi didn't die/stop moving/expire/cease to be/pass from life into death would be to ignore what the game heavily implies. It's already been established before the game's ending that the lifespan of the Black Mages is more limited than that of the other dominant races on Gaia (one of the only things about the Black Mages' anatomy that we are aware of), and we have him speaking during the game's ending before the Play, ending his dialogue with a farewell to everyone followed by "My memories will be part of the sky...." That more or less says "I'm dying. Farewell," would you not say?

Added to this is the fact that he isn't even present during the ending. His sons are, but not him. Had he been present, it's safe to assume he would have been pointed out.

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This argument is now an argument of opinion and will never be decided, it is over, respond if you must but i have stopped

My opinion is that you all have read way too deep into this thing. For goodness' sake it's a character from a computer game!!!!

that made no sense

an Animal is made of Celluar membrane structure DNA etc but they arent the animal it is what makes the animal Homo Homo sapiens are defined as animals Mist is like the DNA and the other stuff that makes Vivi of course mist is not an animal but it makes an animal

i feel stupid for siding though but that point there was wrong Squall will do the rest

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

Not quite sure I said that.

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The "[Stuff]" thing? Take note of the brackets and what it means to use them within a quote, please. I wasn't saying that you had said that.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

Your own quotation is against you there, you said "The material organized substance of an animal, whether living or dead, as distinguished from the spirit, or vital principle; the physical person"

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In your attempt to discredit this point, you've essentially defeated your own once again, basically because the argument you're making here would discredit Homo Sapiens as having bodies, as you're emphasising only animals as having bodies. Either you don't believe that Zidane, Dagger, and Steiner were alive, as well, or you're just grasping at straws. Though perhaps you really do consider Homo Sapiens animals, as well, as the scientific community actually does, though the wording of your Post would suggest you've chosen to ignore this fact. By what standard are you defining "animal"?

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

Surely "Mist" is not animal matter. Even if a condensed form of it, wouldn't take form of cell with any sort of function, let alone an entire bodily system. Because simply if you compress or condense energy (e.g. "life energy") it is fairly obvious you aren't going to get cell tissue forming

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And you would know this how? You're arguing a point in regard to laws of a type of physics we aren't even fully made aware of. For that matter, the Black Mages emerge with clothing. Granted, the material of which their outfits are composed may be formed of artificial fibres such as polyester or rayon rather than natural fibres such as cotton or silk, but they're still emerging with clothing. I could as easily turn what you said around and say "It's fairly obvious you aren't going to get that kind of material forming when Spirit Energy compresses," yet it happened, organic material or not. We don't know the physics of all of that, and to try to argue what Spirit Energy is or isn't going to do when applied in a manner that we've only ever seen it applied to once is utterly illogical and unfounded.

It's one thing to argue that when Spirit Energy condenses we can get a Sphere that will allow one to access Magicks. We have both Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy X/X-2 to support that notion. With what we see occur in Final Fantasy IX, we have nothing similar to compare it to. In any event, once again, they emerge with clothing. Without an in-game -- or in-series -- supported explanation for how Spirit Energy has been compressed and formed fibres (natural or artifical) in addition to the bodies of the Black Mages, you have no basis by which to argue what the compression will or will not do when forming bodies.

For that matter, we don't even know if Kuja applied any organic materials to the compression process or not. Again, you have no basis by which to argue the point you made.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

Yes fruit flies do sexually mature very fast, but that is a far less complicated animal with a substantialy smaller body mass, for that to happen to a creature of, even dog size, the change would require too much energy to be performed in that time, thus killing the animal (see some weed killers they force the same thing upon plants)

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Again, you know no more of Black Mage anatomy than what the game shows or tells us. Your attempt to argue this as though it was a direct correlation fails as a result.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

Further more, Vivi is said to be a Black mage, and intented only to live for only one year (like the others) if he is in fact nine as you say (which i doubt) Then It can safely be assumed that he was not made in the same way as the others, i.e. not out of mist, and so not having the (life emulating) properties of mist, and so never live and so never die

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Um... no, it's not safe to assume that he wasn't made out of Mist. The game never suggests otherwise. It's said he was a prototype for the Black Mage line. That would imply that he was made from Mist. Generally if you're making a prototype of something, you're going to be using the same materials in the future.

And, yes, he is nine years old. All official material released concerning the age of the characters state that as being the case. Google it if you're suspicious. Everything you'll find concerning his age will state that as the case. Magazines released in the time leading up to the release of the game stated that he's 9, the same as that Zidane and Dagger are 16 and Steiner's 33. For whatever reason, it wasn't placed in the Instruction Booklet, but it is the case.

Edit: Even better; here's a link to the official English site: Linkage. Go to "Characters" and then to Vivi's section. It's stated clearly there that he is nine years old.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

The conscious knowledge of stimulus is not fixed with detection of stimulus by the body.

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Where's your evidence that the Black Mages' bodies did not respond to any stimulus? We know that they had emotional feelings, and while it's not said that they do have physical feelings, it's safe to assume that they do. After Zidane, Vivi, Freya, and Quina get pounded by Beatrix in Burmecia, Vivi's laying on the floor beaten with the others. I'd say that's a bodily response to stimulus. When Dagger puts sleeping weed in everyone but Steiner's food in Lindblum, Vivi showed a stimulus reaction then, as well. He said that he was feeling sleepy, and a moment later, he passed out with Zidane, Cid, and Freya.

So far all I'm seeing are in-game points that refute your argument.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

The game never suggests that Vivi isn't made from Metal/Rock/Plastics
(To be pathetic)

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And it never suggests that Zidane's body -- constructed by Garland, not born -- wasn't made from solidified vegetable oil, but just because it doesn't, this lack of negative evidence doesn't mean that which wasn't opposed is thereby automatically inferred.

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

Yes true, you could define the human organs as machines, a definition of a machine can be "something that convery one form of energy to another" in that case almost everything is a machine. But to get to the point my definition of Machine is quite apparant, I mean a system intended with beneficial function or reproduction of a function for a purpose usually of man made materials.

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If we all went about re-defining words to suit our purposes, no one would ever lose a debate.

Anyway, Vivi's not composed of man-made materials. We know this because we're told that the Black Mages are composed of Mist and we're told that Mist is the stagnant souls of Gaia.

To argue otherwise is contradicted by the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

O.k. maybe Vivi does eat in the game, but this is not always associated with Respiration, nor, does it suggest his need for nutrition. If Vivi is a machine (the definition I use) then he does not require nutrition as nutrition is a vehicle for a reaction involving respiration, he may indeed require a power source of some kind.

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You have no basis by which to argue that he doesn't require nutrition, however. The fact that we see him eating would suggest that he does.

By the way, I forgot to mention this in the last Post to you, but Vivi does produce waste by-product. He and Zidane take a piss in Madain Sari:

Quote:

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Vivi
"I want to stop... I don't wanna feel like this anymore."
"What if I keep feeling like this?"

Zidane
"Vivi..."
"Well... In the end, it boils down to two simple choices."
"Either you do or you don't."
"You'd think with all the problems in this world, there'd be more answers."
"It's not fair..."
"...but that's the way things are."
"The choice is yours."

Vivi
"Zidane..."

Zidane
"I just wanna protect the people I'm with."
"Doesn't matter whether I can or not. It's what I believe in."

[Eiko is eavesdropping on the conversation from the kitchen. The screen transitions to the left so that only the dialogue boxes of Zidane and Vivi can be seen, but not them.]

Eiko
"I knew it! I was right!"
"Zidane is the man for me!"
"He's right. You either do, or you don't."
"My choice is clear! I wanna go with Zidane!"

Zidane
"You wanna know a trick to get your mind off things?"

Eiko
"Okay."

Zidane
"This is an age-old ritual between male friends!"

Eiko
"Uh-huh."

Zidane
"Come over here, Vivi. Let's go together."
"Doesn't it feel nice to let yourself go under the stars?"

Eiko
"......"

::Tinkle::

::Tinkle tinkle::

[Eiko rises, shakes her head, and runs out of the kitchen]

::Tinkle tinkle tinkle tinkle::

::Tinkle tinkle::

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

Oh perhaps yes were there any growth, yes it would defeat the point. But since I have debated he is a machine, It seems foolish to continue wasting time with this.

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You mean putting forth a point that you've failed to support? Yeah, I'd say you doing that is a waste of everyone's time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

refering as fact about Being sometimes related to something, I like taking a metaphor as literal fact. Quite simply stopping, isn't dieing because the two words aren't the same, they just aren't and since he is a machine he cannot die, he can only stop.

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Again, the smartest Black Mage in the Village refers to "stopping" and "dying" as being the same thing. Metaphors, by the way, are not intended to be taken literally. They are, by definition, something that illustrates something else, such as "One rotten apple spoils the whole barrel." When someone says this when the discussion isn't about apples, they're not talking about apples.

A metaphor is defined as follows: "The transference of the relation between one set of objects to another set for the purpose of brief explanation; a compressed simile; e. g., the ship plows the sea."

Or are you going to argue that the universally-accepted definition of "metaphor" doesn't fit your definition, and is, thus, false?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

To halt, i.e. to cease movement in a particular direction
To desist, i.e. to "stop" making poor counter arguments

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Yes, you should stop making poor counter arguments. I find your current line of argument insulting as it's riddled with logical fallacies.

And, again, metaphors illustrate something else. Hell, again, Black Mage No. 288 refers to "stop moving" as the Black Mages' term for dying:

Quote:

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Black Mage No. 288
"You're very kind to use our words."
"But you already know what it means to live...and to die."
"You're asking about our friends who have 'died,' not 'stopped.'"

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Argue with the writer of the story on that one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Master Quan

This argument is now an argument of opinion and will never be decided, it is over, respond if you must but i have stopped

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That point you're referring to wasn't posed to you to begin with, but was a general statement to anyone reading the Post, but seeing as how you took the time to respond to it, I'll respond back.

The point that you're arguing is based solely on opinion is based on two things:

1) Logic

&

2) Storywriting. Either you're just, again, grasping at straws, or you have no confidence whatsoever in the scenario writer's capacity to know what the hell they were doing, so you're assuming they just had the foreshadowing to Vivi's death followed by him saying "Farewell. My memories will be part of the sky..." and a complete absence of him afterward for no reason whatsoever. Well, isn't that storytelling at its best.

Honestly, Quan, that would be smurfing awful storytelling. It would make no sense. When someone writes something, generally they're doing so with a certain intent in mind and they use the story itself to convey that intent.


Just so you know, I take it as an insult for you to pull this "I'm going to counter logic, reason, and in-game facts with my personally manufactured definitions that serve my own purpose, while I ignore anything that would possibly contradict my argument, even if it is directly from the game, while I also take things at literal value that aren't even defined as being applied in such a manner, then I'm going to turn my tail and flee" act. That's not how one carries a debate. Debates are where arguments are presented to the effect of convincing one with an opposing viewpoint to accept another viewpoint. An argument must be based on logic and have support. You've offered no support for your argument. Further, you've employed the fallacies of using negative evidence as support for something with no support, as well as refusing to acknowledge a universally-accepted definition simply because it would contradict your argument. Again, this is not how one carries a debate.

Good day.