Vincent's age in FFVII:AC?

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02-27-2005, 04:14 PM
Destai

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Cloud was being summoned by him.

Cloud also thought he was created 6 years ago.He was wrong. Being summoned there and following Seph there were the same thing. Theres no difference. Seph called him there as Cloud was following there.

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*points up ^ * So Cloud, the one Party member who does have J-Cells within himself; who is a Sephiroth Clone, was being summoned to the Reunion. The rest of the team was not being summoned; they chose to be there. Those people did not have J-Cells inside of them.

That didnt make much sense to me. Vincent was at the reunion so why wouldnt he have J-cells? He went there by the same methods of Cloud, following Sephiroth.

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Whether they wanted Vincent to have J-Cells inside of him or not would not affect the story in any way. If he did have J-Cells inside of him -- which he doesn't -- it would not have been crucial to the story of FFVII.

Doesnt that add to the possibility of him having J-cells? Oh by the way. You're not Square and you dont know so save the statements.

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Ok, so go ahead and give me an example.

Having two extra people in the game made no difference to it at all. All the other characters had some story that had to be done in order for the game to progress. Thats pretty underdeveloped.

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Yes, but

thank you. The only important plots were connected to how Seph was born really and wasnt that a part of Hojos explanation at the Mako cannon?
02-27-2005, 05:56 PM
Luthien Rogue

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Cloud also thought he was created 6 years ago.He was wrong.

This was before Cloud "finds himself" in the Lifestream with Tifa. At that point Cloud had realized the truth.

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Being summoned there and following Seph there were the same thing. Theres no difference. Seph called him there as Cloud was following there.

No, Cloud makes it clear that he wasn't following Sephy -- "I wasn't pursuing Sephiroth." He was being summoned by him -- "I was being summoned by Sephiroth."

"Wasn't" meaning he was not following Sephy, and "summoned" meaning being commanded by Sephiroth to go to the North Crater.

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That didnt make much sense to me.

No comment.

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Vincent was at the reunion so why wouldnt he have J-cells? He went there by the same methods of Cloud, following Sephiroth.

Cloud did not follow Sephiroth, he was summoned there by Sephiroth. The game tells us this. Vincent went there by choice, as did the other main characters. Also, if you choose not to get Vinny in your Party, you may have noticed that Vincent does not show up at the Reunion. Hmm...

You have not provided one piece of evidence to support your theory that Vincent has J-Cells within him. Could you please do so?

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Doesnt that add to the possibility of him having J-cells?

Um, no... O_o

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Oh by the way. You're not Square and you dont know so save the statements.

No, I'm not Squaresoft, but I have played the game and happened to pay attention. *bows*

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Having two extra people in the game made no difference to it at all. All the other characters had some story that had to be done in order for the game to progress. Thats pretty underdeveloped.

First, we're not talking about Yuffie, we're talking about Vincent. And having Vincent in the Party tells us who Sephiroth's mother is. And if you go and talk to Lucretia, you will see that Vincent actually has a very developed history. You can read it here: http://members.fortunecity.com/sephk...f/ff7disc2.txt

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thank you.

You're not welcome.

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The only important plots were connected to how Seph was born really and wasnt that a part of Hojos explanation at the Mako cannon?

Hojo tells us that he is the father of Sephiroth. But you have to talk to Lucretia, which requires getting Vinny, in order to learn who his mother is.

Again, please provide some evidence to support your theory. If Vincent had J-Cells within him, why did we not see any signs of this? Why was he never being controlled by Sephy? Why did he not have psychotic little fits like Cloud? Why was he not being summoned to the Reunion? Why did he not recieve a tattoo like all the other clones?
02-27-2005, 06:16 PM
Destai

I already explained why he it doesnt matter if hes being summoned there. You just repeated yourself ,something I really dont feel like doing because your ignoring my points. I also already explained Vincent went there the same way Cloud did. Vincent didnt show up at the reunion because he was an optional character. You also asked why the scenario would change. Theres your example staring you in the face. Thanks for answering your own question. What you said made it possible that he could have J-cells. Try reading between the lines because I really dont want to wade through longer and longer posts.

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You have not provided one piece of evidence to support your theory that Vincent has J-Cells within him. Could you please do so?

I could say the same about you, couldnt I?:rolleyes2 Ive certainly explained why he could have cells.

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No, I'm not Squaresoft, but I have played the game and happened to pay attention. *bows*

You couldve fooled me. Most of what you said is truth with your own theories added in.

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First, we're not talking about Yuffie, we're talking about Vincent.

Like I said, Reading between the lines. Optional characters people.

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And having Vincent in the Party tells us who Sephiroth's mother is. And if you go and talk to Lucretia, you will see that Vincent actually has a very developed history.

Wrong story. It hadnt any effect on FFVII storyline and didnt answer any questions that wouldnt already be answered regarding the main story. Just a piece of extra infromation. Ive already seen Lucrecias scene.

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You're not welcome.

:cry:

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Hojo tells us that he is the father of Sephiroth. But you have to talk to Lucretia, which requires getting Vinny, in order to learn who his mother is.

I explained that in the last post Lucrecia had no effect on the story.

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If Vincent had J-Cells within him, why did we not see any signs of this?

I already tole you. Because hes optional and besides. he turns into a monster like the other jenovas.

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Why did he not have psychotic little fits like Cloud?

You see this maked me wonder wether you really payed attention. Cloud had those fits because he thought he was a clone. (*cough*between the lines*cough*)Vincent already knew his past.

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Why was he not being summoned to the Reunion?

He was there if you used him and he was not a part of the story if you didnt. Again thats your different scenario.Why was he not being summoned to the Reunion?

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Why did he not recieve a tattoo like all the other clones?

Vincents not a Sephiroth clone. Sephiroth was a phoetus when Vincent was experimented with. They didnt have any reason to put tattos on people back then. Are you sure you payed attention during the game because unless you're pulling questions out of your ass... :confused:
02-27-2005, 07:41 PM
Luthien Rogue

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I already explained why he it doesnt matter if hes being summoned there. You just repeated yourself ,something I really dont feel like doing because your ignoring my points.

I repeated myself because my point still stands.

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I also already explained Vincent went there the same way Cloud did.
Vincent didnt show up at the reunion because he was an optional character.

Well, that would mean Square really fudged up the story, wouldn't it? Square put a lot of thought, money, and effort into FF7, and everything was carefully planned. I really doubt that they were just too lazy to add that in...

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You also asked why the scenario would change. Theres your example staring you in the face. Thanks for answering your own question.

Could you be a little more straightforward? This is getting annoying... "Something you said in your last five responses is the answer to your question." Why don't you answer the question yourself? Or at least tell me what you're talking about...

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What you said made it possible that he could have J-cells.Try reading between the lines because I really dont want to wade through longer and longer posts.

What the heck are you talking about? Instead of saying "Try reading between the lines because I really dont want to wade through longer and longer posts" why didn't you use that space to explain what you were talking about? :rolleyes2

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I could say the same about you, couldnt I?

Not really... try reading an entire post before responding:

"If Vincent had J-Cells within him, why did we not see any signs of this? Why was he never being controlled by Sephy? Why did he not have psychotic little fits like Cloud? Why was he not being summoned to the Reunion? Why did he not recieve a tattoo like all the other clones?"

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Ive certainly explained why he could have cells.

"He's an optional character so Square just didn't bother mentioning a crucial aspect of his story"? O_o I'm sorry, but that is not "proof".

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You couldve fooled me. Most of what you said is truth with your own theories added in.

Theories? Where? All I see are facts. However, you have used no facts at all, and have only provided your theories.

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Like I said, Reading between the lines. Optional characters people.

So WHAT if he's an optional character? Let's say he does have J-Cells in him. However, someone doesn't bother getting Vinny when they play the game... will that screw up the story? No. So why would Square just "not bother" mentioning that Vinny has J-Cells inside of him if he did? They show the experiments happening... but never mention J-Cells...

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Wrong story. It hadnt any effect on FFVII storyline and didnt answer any questions that wouldnt already be answered regarding the main story. Just a piece of extra infromation. Ive already seen Lucrecias scene.

Ask some people who never got Vinny who Sephy's mother is, and I assure you that someone will say "Jenova". Getting Vincent and talking to Lucretia is a very important part of the story.

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I already tole you. Because hes optional and besides.

And again, why does that matter? He's an optional character so they leave out the part about him being injected with J-Cells, but they decide to tell us that Vinny like Lucrecia? That's interesting... telling us something that really doesn't matter, while leaving out an important piece of info...

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he turns into a monster like the other jenovas.

1. No other Sephy Clones turn into monsters. Cloud, the Clones etc...
2. Jenova is a shape-shifter, meaning she has CONTROL over her appearance. Vincent does not.

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You see this maked me wonder wether you really payed attention. Cloud had those fits because he thought he was a clone. (*cough*between the lines*cough*)Vincent already knew his past.

Cloud had fits whenever Sephy/Jenova entered his mind, trying to control him. Example: When Sephy was trying to get Cloud to kill Aeris at the Forgotten Capital, Cloud has a little "fit". Makes me wonder if you really payed attention... :D

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He was there if you used him and he was not a part of the story if you didnt. Again thats your different scenario.Why was he not being summoned to the Reunion?

...Because he doesn't have J-Cells inside of him... O__o That would be my point... o____O I guess you can't explain this, then?

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Vincents not a Sephiroth clone. Sephiroth was a phoetus when Vincent was experimented with. They didnt have any reason to put tattos on people back then. Are you sure you payed attention during the game because unless you're pulling questions out of your ass...

Do you not remember Vincent found out Hojo was experimenting on the baby, and he was shot because he was trying to stop it? THEN he was experimented on. And "Sephiroth Clone" are injected with J-Cells. Therefore, if you're right, Vinny would be a Sephy Clone... but you're wrong, so. :D
02-27-2005, 08:28 PM
Destai

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LR: If he did have J-Cells inside of him -- which he doesn't --* it would not have been crucial to the story of FFVII.*
D: Doesnt that add to the possibility of him having J-cells?
LR:Um, no... O o

Its possible that he could have J-cells and wouldnt change anything. So its possible he could have them? No. (doesnt make sense...)

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I repeated myself because my point still stands.

Look at it this way. Being summoned and following there were both right. I never said you're point didnt stand so theres no need to repeat yourself. Jesus..

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Well, that would mean Square really fudged up the story, wouldn't it? Square put a lot of thought, money, and effort into FF7, and everything was carefully planned. I really doubt that they were just too lazy to add that in...

You already said he could have cells and it wouldnt effect the story. If they did put it in it would effect the story. He was optional so for the sake of it they left him out. Quit bitching they're making up for it with a new game :rolleyes2
If they had left that in it would have changed the scenario.

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"If Vincent had J-Cells within him, why did we not see any signs of this? Why was he never being controlled by Sephy? Why did he not have psychotic little fits like Cloud? Why was he not being summoned to the Reunion? Why did he not recieve a tattoo like all the other clones?"

J-cells have several different effects on people. Theres not one effect for it. Turning into a monster could easily be one of those signs, different effects and the jenovas you fought throuout the game were all monsters. Sephiroth also mutated himself. He wasnt being controlled by Seph because hes not the main character, duh :rolleyes2 Pulling questions out of your ass comes to mind. If you used him he was at the reunion and if you didnt he was asleep. Theres a reunion in AC which Kadaj and co. host. They werent at the original reunion. I explained why he had no fits. He wasnt made as a clone. Answer this. Why would hojo give him a tatoo? It doesnt make sense.

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So WHAT if he's an optional character? Let's say he does have J-Cells in him. However, someone doesn't bother getting Vinny when they play the game... will that screw up the story?

You already said if he ahd J-cells it wouldnt effect the story.

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Ask some people who never got Vinny who Sephy's mother is, and I assure you that someone will say "Jenova". Getting Vincent and talking to Lucretia is a very important part of the story.

That didnt effect the story. Hojo explained he injected cells into the womb at the Mako cannon.

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And again, why does that matter? He's an optional character so they leave out the part about him being injected with J-Cells, but they decide to tell us that Vinny like Lucrecia? That's interesting... telling us something that really doesn't matter, while leaving out an important piece of info...

I always thought it obvious. Maybe it raised too much questionabout why he wasnt at the reunion and theyd have been forced to change the story...nah.

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Jenova is a shape-shifter, meaning she has CONTROL over her appearance. Vincent does not.

Yeah Cloud made great use of that feature. hes really a weady little man called Norbert.

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Cloud had fits whenever Sephy/Jenova entered his mind, trying to control him.

No he didnt. The only fit really was when he was at the crater. He came up with theories like being created five or so years ago because he didnt know his past and lost it when he couldnt remember. duh....

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Because he doesn't have J-Cells inside of him... O o That would be my point... o O I guess you can't explain this, then

That wasnt meant to be part of my post. It was your question while i was making the post. I answered ALOT. Ive also answered in this post.

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Do you not remember Vincent found out Hojo was experimenting on the baby, and he was shot because he was trying to stop it? THEN he was experimented on. And "Sephiroth Clone" are injected with J-Cells. Therefore, if you're right, Vinny would be a Sephy Clone...

The tatoos were for people who were made to be intentionally like seph so Vin wasnt regarded as a clone. They didnt start making clones till they saw seph was succesful. Thats pretty obvious. But you are after all, an idiot.
02-27-2005, 09:08 PM
Luthien Rogue

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Its possible that he could have J-cells and wouldnt change anything. So its possible he could have them? No. (doesnt make sense...)

No, no, no. I mean it wouldn't affect the story in any way, however, it would affect Vincent.. O_o He would be showing signs of having been injected with J-Cells.

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Look at it this way. Being summoned and following there were both right. I never said you're point didnt stand so theres no need to repeat yourself. Jesus..

But Cloud says he wasn't following him...

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You already said he could have cells and it wouldnt effect the story. If they did put it in it would effect the story. He was optional so for the sake of it they left him out. Quit bitching they're making up for it with a new game
If they had left that in it would have changed the scenario.

It wouldn't affect the main plot. It would however affect Vincent, since people with J-Cells in them show signs of having been injected. I also never said they're "making up for it with a new game." I said if he wasn't an important character, why is he getting an entire game dedicated to his past?

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J-cells have several different effects on people. Theres not one effect for it. Turning into a monster could easily be one of those signs, different effects and the jenovas you fought throuout the game were all monsters.

We know there are certain effects:

1. Nothing at all.
2. Having psychotic little fits like Cloud.
3. Muttering "Sephiroth" and "Reunion."

Schtuff like that. And again, Jenova had control over the form she takes, Vinny doesn't.

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Sephiroth also mutated himself.

Note Jenova above his head. Jenova was part of him. Many believe, as I do, that Jenova and Sephy became one while in the Lifestream. (another debate...) It wasn't Sephy, it was Jenova.

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He wasnt being controlled by Seph because hes not the main character, duh

Yet a ton of NPCs were being controlled/summoned by Sephiroth... every Clone... O_o Interesting...

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Pulling questions out of your ass comes to mind.

Pulling answers out of yours comes to mind. O_o

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If you used him he was at the reunion and if you didnt he was asleep.

As Hojo says, the Reunion menas all of the J-Cells being reunited. Therefore, Vincent would have woken up and appeared at the Reunion as well. But he didn't. Why didn't just just show up as an NPC?

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Theres a reunion in AC which Kadaj and co. host. They werent at the original reunion.

We have to know more about the origins of the SHM before we can talk about that... for all we know, they were just recently created.

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I explained why he had no fits. He wasnt made as a clone.

So?

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Answer this. Why would hojo give him a tatoo? It doesnt make sense.

I'm searching for a quote right now, I'll respond when I find it.

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That didnt effect the story. Hojo explained he injected cells into the womb at the Mako cannon.

Into the womb ooooof.... who? He doesn't say. Most people still believe Jenova is the mother.

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Yeah Cloud made great use of that feature. hes really a weady little man called Norbert.

...The hell?

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No he didnt. The only fit really was when he was at the crater. He came up with theories like being created five or so years ago because he didnt know his past and lost it when he couldnt remember. duh....

He was having fits since the beginning of the game... Since he went to the first Reactor. And you ignored my example:

"Example: When Sephy was trying to get Cloud to kill Aeris at the Forgotten Capital, Cloud has a little "fit". Makes me wonder if you really payed attention... "

:rolleyes2 :love:
02-27-2005, 10:03 PM
Destai

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But Cloud says he wasn't following him...

Cloud also thought he was created a few years ago when he said that. hich isnt true. He was having a breakdown when he said that.

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It wouldn't affect the main plot. It would however affect Vincent, since people with J-Cells in them show signs of having been injected.

Like turning into monsters similar tp the monsters in Nibelheim. Vincenthas control over his mutations apparently.

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We know there are certain effects:
1. Nothing at all.
2. Having psychotic little fits like Cloud.
3. Muttering "Sephiroth" and "Reunion."
Schtuff like that. And again, Jenova had control over the form she takes, Vinny doesn't.

1. what?, 2.Again I explained the fits, 3. That was only the Sephiroth clones which vincent isnt necessarily even if he does have Jenova cells in him. What experiment was odne to Vincent was more than likely different than normal cloning procedure and was Hojo smurfing around, plus if he was muttering Sephiroth and reunion and in the same physical state as the other clones then he wouldnt have been suitable to join the party or remotely conscious which Cloud was for most of the game until Seph and Jenova attacked his mind. Since Vincent was asleep perhaps there wasnt any need for his mind to be broken like other clones?

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Note Jenova above his head. Jenova was part of him. Many believe, as I do, that Jenova and Sephy became one while in the Lifestream. (another debate...) It wasn't Sephy, it was Jenova.

Several people from the reactor in Nibelheim also mutated.

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Yet a ton of NPCs were being controlled/summoned by Sephiroth... every Clone... O o Interesting...

Yeah so? Doesnt need to be all of them. If Vincent was one of those flunkies then he wouldn have been a suitbable party member.

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Pulling answers out of yours comes to mind. O o

Bet it took you ages to come up with that.

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As Hojo says, the Reunion menas all of the J-Cells being reunited. Therefore, Vincent would have woken up and appeared at the Reunion as well. But he didn't. Why didn't just just show up as an NPC?

He didnt show up as a non player character because Square werent bothered and didnt think it necessary. Maybe he died on the way? Or maybe they wanted you to be able to get him after the northern crater if that possible.

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We have to know more about the origins of the SHM before we can talk about that... for all we know, they were just recently created.

They definitely have Jenova cells and host the second reunion. Saying that all J-cells will be reubited is very literal and could easily have been words used to summarize the event. To be fair if every piece of dialogue is taken literally you have a pretty different game.

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So?

You asked, I answered.

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Into the womb ooooof.... who? He doesn't say. Most people still believe Jenova is the mother.

That doesnt matter since it doesnt effect the storyline. Its just an extra non essential piece of information.

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...The hell?

The way you said it would suggest every person with J-cells could change form. Cloud didnt change form.

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Example: When Sephy was trying to get Cloud to kill Aeris at the Forgotten Capital, Cloud has a little "fit". Makes me wonder if you really payed attention...

That wasnt much of a fit. Seph/Jenova manipulated his mind but he broke free and said "what are you making me do?" That was mind control from a powerful influence. That wasnt a fit. The reactor struck me as more of a flashback from his forgitten past. Cloud couldnt remember his past and had fits when he began to believe everything Hojo suggested. He couldnt remember and when he began to believe he was a clone he had a breakdown. The breakdown at the temlple of the ancients was out of more mind control from the J-cells in him and shock from giving the B-materia.
02-27-2005, 11:30 PM
Luthien Rogue

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Cloud also thought he was created a few years ago when he said that. hich isnt true. He was having a breakdown when he said that.

The scene you're talking about is where Hojo fires the Cannon. The scene where Cloud realizes his true past is when he is in the Lifestream with Tifa. Let's take a look at the order those scenes appear:

Lifestream with Tifa:

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Scene 113: Enter Cloud's Mind - Nibelheim, Long Ago
Scene 114: That Childhood Promise...
Scene 115: Jealousy - In My Room
Scene 116: On the Other Side of the Mountain
Scene 117: The Truth - You Were Watching Me - A Battle of Will
Scene 118: Return to the Others
Scene 119: Awakening

Cannon:

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Scene 129: Green - Junon Cannon Relocated
Scene 130: Sister Ray
Scene 131: Weapon Surfaces - Value of a Life - Epic Battle
Scene 132: Fire - Weapon Falls - Paths Opened - President's
Redemption
Scene 133: Imminent Explosion - Hojo Schemes - Midgar Bound

If you play that scene again, or read a script, you will see that Cloud knows the truth about his past at that point. And either way... Cloud had his memories mixed up, as a result of the experiments and him wanting to be good enough for his friends and family. He wasn't stupid, though. He would know whether or not he was being summoned by Sephiroth. Why wouldn't he?

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Like turning into monsters similar tp the monsters in Nibelheim.

Those monsters didn't turn back into humans, though, unlike Vincent.

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Vincenthas control over his mutations apparently.

No he doesn't. 1. It's a Limit Break, he can't transform whenever he feels like it. 2. He can't change back whenever he feels like it.

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We know there are certain effects:
1. Nothing at all.

1. what?,

Some people, like Zack, had no reaction at all to J-Cells.

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Since Vincent was asleep perhaps there wasnt any need for his mind to be broken like other clones?

O_o

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Several people from the reactor in Nibelheim also mutated.

Not by their own will, though, as you're suggesting. O_o That's a permanent state they are now in as a result of the experiments.

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Yeah so? Doesnt need to be all of them.

Doesn't need to be all of them? What? :\

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If Vincent was one of those flunkies then he wouldn have been a suitbable party member.

But you said... o.o You said "He wasn't being controlled because he wasn't a main character, duh." Well wtf does that have to do with anything? :|

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He didnt show up as a non player character because Square werent bothered and didnt think it necessary.

If your theory is true, that he has J-Cells in him, then that screws up the entire Reunion theory... Square wouldn't do that. :|

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Maybe he died on the way?

Then how is it that he has his own game coming out, and is in AC?

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Or maybe they wanted you to be able to get him after the northern crater if that possible.

Then once again he would be going there by his own free will.

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They definitely have Jenova cells and host the second reunion. Saying that all J-cells will be reubited is very literal and could easily have been words used to summarize the event. To be fair if every piece of dialogue is taken literally you have a pretty different game.

UGH... you were making a point... that the SHM weren't at the Reunion years ago so why would Vincent HAVE to be? I'm saying for all we know the SHM were created after the original Reunion, we don't know for sure. Until we do, you can't use that as your arguement.

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The way you said it would suggest every person with J-cells could change form. Cloud didnt change form.

Um... no. You suggested that his ability was the same as Jenova's:

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he turns into a monster like the other jenovas.

I'm saying it's not the same. Jenova has control over it, Vincent does not.

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That wasnt much of a fit. Seph/Jenova manipulated his mind but he broke free and said "what are you making me do?" That was mind control from a powerful influence. That wasnt a fit.

Perhaps you missed the part where he started shaking like crazy?

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The breakdown at the temlple of the ancients was out of more mind control from the J-cells in him and shock from giving the B-materia.

You really don't listen, do you? You're the one who said this:

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You see this maked me wonder wether you really payed attention. Cloud had those fits because he thought he was a clone. (*cough*between the lines*cough*)Vincent already knew his past.

I said it was because of this:

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Cloud had fits whenever Sephy/Jenova entered his mind, trying to control him.

Now you're changing your story? Well, at least that proves I'm right about that. :rolleyes2
02-28-2005, 12:03 AM
Destai

You're reading my posts wrong and my story hasnt chnaged. Quit being childish. When he said that I was reffering ot the northern crater.
No those monster didnt turn back but hes an opptional so theyd bend the rules easily. When I said control I meant being able to change back.
It doesnt need to be all of the clones.
I said he wasnt "the" main character as in Cloud so Seph or Jenova never controlled him.
The whole reunion theory is only screwed if you take the term all of jenovas cells reuniting literally which I already explained I dont.
Use common sense. He was obviously a member of the party in FFVII if he was in AC and DOC. I was saying he could die on the way if he wasnt a part of the party and like I said before I dont think hed attend the reunion while he was sleeping.

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Then once again he would be going there by his own free will.

what?
what do you mean by created? They were definitlely alive at the time of the reunion. How would they have been injected with J-cells after the game?

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Perhaps you missed the part where he started shaking like crazy?

He pulls out his sword, prepares to hit her and stops. She then dies. Then he shakes like crazy.
Im aware of what I said and the main fits Im referring to are in thenorthern crater during the reunion. That fit was from shock . Not from Seph or Jenova who controlled him. He couldnt understand why he just gave the materia to him. Theres a difference.
You read my posts wrong as I read your posts wrong. My story hasnt changed.
02-28-2005, 12:48 AM
Luthien Rogue

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Quit being childish.

Hey! No, you quit being childish! http://img72.exs.cx/img72/7321/gayfight4gr.gif

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No those monster didnt turn back but hes an opptional so theyd bend the rules easily.

Oh, do they? I had no idea. Do you work for Squaresoft?

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It doesnt need to be all of the clones.

What? :|

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I said he wasnt "the" main character as in Cloud so Seph or Jenova never controlled him.

Yet they controlled Non-playable Characters... If you're saying Vinny isn't as important, therefore Sephy/Jenova never controlled him, then how do you explain them controlling NPCs?

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The whole reunion theory is only screwed if you take the term all of jenovas cells reuniting literally which I already explained I dont.

So how do you take it? How do you decide what parts of the game you take literally and which parts you don't?

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Use common sense.

O_o Your sense is not common. o_O

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I was saying he could die on the way if he wasnt a part of the party and like I said before I dont think hed attend the reunion while he was sleeping.

He wasn't able to wake up? O_o

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what?

...If you were to get Vinny after the Crater, he'd still be going to the Reunion by his own free will.

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what do you mean by created?

Created the same way the Sephiroth Clones were created. :|

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They were definitlely alive at the time of the reunion.

Prove that? O_o

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How would they have been injected with J-cells after the game?

By taking teh Jenova Cells and injecting them into teh people? :rolleyes2

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That fit was from shock . Not from Seph or Jenova who controlled him.

You just said it was from them controlling him...

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Cloud had fits whenever Sephy/Jenova entered his mind, trying to control him.

http://img72.exs.cx/img72/5803/potatowned7fh.gif
02-28-2005, 01:12 AM
Destai

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Oh, do they? I had no idea. Do you work for Squaresoft?

Took you long enough

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It doesnt need to be all of the clones.

I was responding to your post.

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So how do you take it? How do you decide what parts of the game you take literally and which parts you don't?

The word "All" is used often and isnt always literal. Thats pretty common.

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He wasn't able to wake up? O o

He wasnt *woken up.

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Created the same way the Sephiroth Clones were created.

How do you define that?

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Prove that? O o

Theyre older than two.

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By taking teh Jenova Cells and injecting them into teh people?

Hojo was dead :rolleyes2

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You just said it was from them controlling him...

you misread.
and whats potatowned?
02-28-2005, 01:49 AM
Luthien Rogue

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Took you long enough

Yeh... >.> *roffles her @$$ off*

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He wasn't able to wake up? O_o

He wasnt *woken up.

Okay, people, this is what it looks like when someone "corrects" your already correct spelling. You think I should've said, "He wasn't able to woken up?" :confused: That's... strange. O_o

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How do you define that?

I thought you've played the game.....?

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Theyre older than two.

Who's "they" and what two things are they older than? O_o

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Hojo was dead

Hojo's the only one capable of injecting J-Cells into someone and showering them with Mako? I doubt that...

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You just said it was from them controlling him...

you misread.

Before:

"That fit was from shock . Not from Seph or Jenova who controlled him."

After:

"Cloud had fits whenever Sephy/Jenova entered his mind, trying to control him."

First you said the fit was from when Sephy/Jenova tried to control Cloud's mind, then you say it's not from that, but from shock.
02-28-2005, 01:57 AM
Destai

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Okay, people, this is what it looks like when someone "corrects" your already correct spelling. You think I should've said, "He wasn't able to woken up?" That's... strange. O o

I have to hand it to you for managing to come up with that :confused: Cloud hadnt woken him up.

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I thought you've played the game.....?

Several people misunderstood what a clone was. Well?

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Who's "they" and what two things are they older than? O o

You really are slow and seriously over using smilies. The WHM are older than two years old. See how that works?

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Hojo's the only one capable of injecting J-Cells into someone and showering them with Mako? I doubt that...

Hes the only mad scientist I can think of who experimented with J-cells.

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Before:

"That fit was from shock . Not from Seph or Jenova who controlled him."

After:

"Cloud had fits whenever Sephy/Jenova entered his mind, trying to control him."

First you said the fit was from when Sephy/Jenova tried to control Cloud's mind, then you say it's not from that, but from shock.

At the ancients temple Cloud was shocked because he didnt understand what had just happened. The other fits I can think of were different.
02-28-2005, 03:44 AM
Luthien Rogue

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I have to hand it to you for managing to come up with that Cloud hadnt woken him up.

Ok... I said "He wasn't able to wake up?" What's wrong with that sentence? I'm asking you if Vinny wasn't able to wake up for some reason to go to the Reunion... :rolleyes2 I never said anything about Cloud. :S

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Several people misunderstood what a clone was. Well?

Wow.. not paying attention, I see. As Cloud says, a Clone has been injected with Jenova Cells and showered with Mako.

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You really are slow and seriously over using smilies. The WHM are older than two years old. See how that works?

Nope, I'm not slow, I just didn't understand what you were trying to say because guess what? It didn't make sense. I know the clones are older than two. Cloud was experimented on, becoming a Sephiroth Clone, when he was roughly Kadaj's age. See how that works?

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Hes the only mad scientist I can think of who experimented with J-cells.

*holds back laughter* Does the name "Gast" ring a bell?
02-28-2005, 06:29 AM
Squall of SeeD

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Originally Posted by Destai

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Originally Posted by Luthien Rogue

But Cloud says he wasn't following him...

Cloud also thought he was created a few years ago when he said that. hich isnt true. He was having a breakdown when he said that.

Hojo had already hinted toward Cloud being summoned to the Reunion well before that point:

(At Costa Del Sol.)

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Hojo
"Hmm! I believe we're both after the same goal."

Cloud
"You mean Sephiroth?"

Hojo
"Did you see him?"
"I see..... Ha! Ha!"

(He stands up)

Cloud
"What is it?"

Hojo
"Nothing. I just remembered a certain hypothesis......."
"Haven't you ever had the feeling something is calling you?"
"Or that you had to visit some place?......"

Cloud
"I'll go anywhere Sephiroth is at!"
"To beat him and put an end to all this!"

Hojo
"I see...... This could be interesting."
"Were you in SOLDIER? ....Heh heh heh! Would you like to be my
guinea pig?"

In other words, Luthien's argument involves acknowledging confirmation of a plot point already offered previous foreshadowing, whereas yours requires ignoring it simply because it contradicts your argument. To put it another way, Luthien's argument involves something stated to us by the game which is never contradicted, whereas yours doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Destai

Vincenthas control over his mutations apparently.

Where do you get that Vincent has control of his mutations out of him transforming and becoming uncontrollable to the player? Vincent is in a constant Berserk-like state when he's in one of his Limit Break forms. How is Vincent being in a state in which he's no longer controllable by the player indicative of him being in control of his mutations?

Also, if he's in control of his mutations, as Luthien has pointed out, why are they Limit Breaks and not basic commands like Terra's Morph in Final Fantasy VI?

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Originally Posted by Destai

...if he was muttering Sephiroth and reunion and in the same physical state as the other clones then he wouldnt have been suitable to join the party or remotely conscious which Cloud was for most of the game until Seph and Jenova attacked his mind.

Cloud was a mess well before he was being mentally assaulted. Even before that, he was randomly having semi-blackouts and flashbacks, even in the first two Mako Reactors.

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Originally Posted by Destai

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Originally Posted by Luthien Rogue

As Hojo says, the Reunion menas all of the J-Cells being reunited. Therefore, Vincent would have woken up and appeared at the Reunion as well. But he didn't. Why didn't just just show up as an NPC?

Maybe he died on the way? Or maybe they wanted you to be able to get him after the northern crater if that possible.

Obviously he didn't die on the way. The canon of the story is that he didn't, so there's no arguing this point with "In the event that the player didn't get him beforehand." As for the player being intended to get him later, that's almost equally ridiculus, as it's obvious that one would be intended to get him as soon as he was available. Likewise with Yuffie, or this particular line of dialogue at the end of Disc 2 from her wouldn't make sense:

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Yuffie
"I didn't go through all that just to have you guys have the
best parts all to yourselves!"

One would have to wonder what all Yuffie had gone through if she had only been acquired shortly before making this statement.

For that matter, when first meeting Vincent, he asks if he will meet Hojo at some point if he goes with Cloud and the others, to which Cloud responds "Dunno. But we're after him and Sephiroth, so I guess sooner or later...."

It was during Disc 1 that AVALANCHE was chasing "Sephiroth" across the continents.

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Originally Posted by Destai

No those monster didnt turn back but hes an opptional so theyd bend the rules easily. When I said control I meant being able to change back.

Thank you for that entirely unsupported and unreasonable point. We don't know that Vincent just changes back at will. The indication certainly isn't that he transforms at will, so why think he transforms back at will?

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Originally Posted by Destai

I was saying he could die on the way if he wasnt a part of the party and like I said before I dont think hed attend the reunion while he was sleeping.

I've already addressed the matter of canon in regard to Vincent being dead, so I won't bother with that again, but as for the second part of your sentence... why didn't he just wake up, then? It's not as though he couldn't have left anytime he wanted to. Cloud didn't wake him from some inescapable slumber, after all. He just walked into the room and Vincent clearly was simply awoken from normal sleep, even throwing the lid off his coffin himself.

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Originally Posted by Destai

what?
what do you mean by created? They were definitlely alive at the time of the reunion. How would they have been injected with J-cells after the game?

Your question that's sort of proposed here about them not being at the Reunion could be addressed the same way you've gone about "handling" the matter of Vincent not showing up: "Maybe they were asleep." In any event, I'm not going to go that ridiculous route and just point out again that they could have been injected with JENOVA's Cells after the first Reunion. It's certainly not something beyond anyone's capabilities but Hojo to perform. Place JENOVA Cells into a syringe and inject them. I'm not seeing the "Only Hojo could do it!" aspect of this... especially since Hojo had only been Gast's assistant during the injection of JENOVA Cells into Lucrecia.

Anyway, seeing as how we don't yet know the origins of the Silver-Haired Men, I don't think it's really something to speculate on, as whatever Kazushige Nojima has worked out should sufficiently explain the matter.

As for the matter of "It doesn't need to be all of the clones" at the Reunion, it's safe to assume that -- at the least -- we would have seen a psychological representation of Vincent having JENOVA's Cells as we do from everyone else -- or every other group of People -- with them:

1) Cloud and the Sephiroth Clones (folks infused with Mako and injected with JENOVA's Cells after Sephiroth's massacre in Nibelheim) are obvious.
2) We have the Junon Accessory Shop owner (a former member of SOLDIER, Shin-Ra's elite soldiers, who, like the Sephiroth Clones, were infused with Mako and injected with JENOVA Cells) show us that members of SOLDIER felt the call of the Reunion, despite not being forced to go, as he donned a black cape without knowing why, saying he's felt like wearing it recently.
3) Lucrecia (the mother of Sephiroth who had JENOVA Cells injected into her while Sephiroth was still in the womb) mentions having had dreams of Sephiroth in the recent times before AVALANCHE meeting her in her cave.
4) Sephiroth is also obvious.
5) Hojo (who had injected JENOVA Cells into himself some time before the firing of the Sister Ray at the Northern Crater, though likely not too long before as his mind was much more stable when he was last seen before that point and no move to kill him to reclaim JENOVA Cells from him is made at the Reunion) is also obvious.
5) The creatures in the reactor (other folks altered by JENOVA's Cells and possibly Mako infusion) displayed permanent transformations and what was likely insanity (interestingly enough, the same thing said by Ifalna to have happened to the Cetra 2,000 years before the main events of the game when JENOVA released some virus among them; granted, we don't know what that virus was and it may not have had anything to do with JENOVA's Cells, but it's certainly something to rouse suspicion when we know those with JENOVA's Cells within them can transform, and in -- at the very least -- Hojo's case, show signs of insanity) with the way it was howling before it fell out of that pod.

In other words, we have five confirmed types of People with JENOVA Cells within them, all of whom display psychological instability or are shown to have JENOVA Cells within them. Neither of these things happen with Vincent. While it could possibly be argued that Vincent losing control while transformed is such a sign -- or that his immortality is a sign, seeing as how Lucrecia states that the JENOVA Cells within her wouldn't let her die -- there's still the matter of him having been killed before whatever experiments were conducted on him, then being brought back to life as a result of them, there being any number of effects this might have had with using any non-JENOVA materials Hojo used during the experiment, and there's also the matter of him reverting to normal after his transformations, unlike the Pod Experiments, and that his transformations look nothing at all like the grotesque forms that Hojo, the Pod Experiments, or even Sephiroth took on:

Vincent's Limit Breaks:
Galian Beast.
Hellmasker.
Death Gigas.
Chaos.

JENOVA Transformations:
Nibelheim Pod Reactor Experiment.
Hellectic Hojo.
Lifeform Hojo.
Bizarro Sephiroth.

There's really nothing to confirm Vincent being injected with JENOVA's Cells at this time. We simply have to wait for Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus to show us whether or not it is so.

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