would you want to go home?

*Shrug* The difference with the Matrix is that everyone there existed in the real world as well. According to my theory, the people of Ivalice exist only in Ivalice.

As for the book thing, I think that it is easy to explain. It shows a blank page to begin with, except for the expanding magic symbol, then the races appear one by one, and as they do the page fills with writing (and if you look carefully, among the writing added when each race is added, you can see the rune that appears before the picture of the race shows up). So I think that omnitarian is probably correct. The book is distilling the images into itself. It was blank to begin with, so it certainly didn't contain the races before it was opened (and if you believe that it wasn't blank, you have to discount that scene entirely).

While the initial analysis of the story was interesting, it fails to take into account certain realities. First of all, Ivalice is based on St. Ivalice only in the loosest interpretation possible. Ivalice is the product of desire, and the character's desires are all centered around their own experiences. Since the backstory of St. Ivalice is crucial to defining their desires, traces of St. Ivalice are imbued into the framework of the dreamworld. Ivalice is separate from St. Ivalice; it is the physical manifestation of the characters' desires, especially those of Mewt. Desire is a product of experience, so Mewt's experiences, positive and negative, join with the concept of 'Final Fantasy' to form the true template for Ivalice.

I like the idea of Mewt's friends being pulled into Ivalice to signify the different aspects of his personality. However, script analysis would seem to suggest utter independence on the part of the characters. They may reflect Mewt's struggle, but only because they are an influential and independent dynamic.

What really bothers me is the suggestion that leaving Ivalice essentially constitutes genocide. I would propose instead the opposite: staying in Ivalice is genocide, or something similar to it. If all the events are symbolic of Mewt's (and the others) inner turmoil, then the idea of physical manifestation is irrelevant. Mewt could have been dreaming. However, Ivalice is more than a dream; it is a dream taken physical form. The instrument of this substantiation is the Gran Grimoire, an object that for the purpose of the story must be interpreted to have actual power to affect the real world. In that case, I will propose the following: Ivalice and reality cannot exist concurrently. By substantiating the dream, reality becomes the dream. Only as Ivalice unravels does reality begin to become clear again.

That, of course, is what makes the Gran Grimoire so dangerous. It holds the power to mold reality to one's desires, but in molding reality one loses it. The disappearance of Ivalice is irrelevant; it is Mewt's (and maybe the others') dreamings and desires. Hence, leaving Ivalice would be akin to me creating a character in my mind, then dismissing the notion. However, because the Gran Grimoire "threads" reality and fantasy, they cannot both exist. This paradox is best understood in this way: as part of reality, the characters are based in it. A dream doesn't matter; everyone dreams. But by physically projecting themselves into fantasy, reality is either stopped or discarded. Ivalice, nothing more than a dream, becomes reality. Therefore, the perpetuation of Ivalice implies the perpetual negation of our world. While Ivalice exists, we don't.

The Gran Grimoire, then, can ultimately be interpreted as a manifestation of temptation. Everyone has experiences they would prefer to discard. However, in giving into the temptation of the book, one negates oneself. By bringing making dreams real, one loses his or her real self. In giving into that ultimate temptation, one forsakes everything everyone has ever done for them. They discard the world.

Hence, it was necessary for Marche to overcome his doubts and concerns, since he was the only one who realized the deception that is Ivalice. Pain is sometimes necessary for growth, and in dismissing the reality of pain, the characters nearly locked themselves in the eternal stasis of perceived perfection.

Wow, and I'm not even a particularly huge fan of FFTA. I mean, seriously, FFT is FAR superior. But, hey, now you all have something to think about.

EDIT: oh, by the way, if you couldn't tell from what I wrote above, I would definitely go back. Otherwise, I'd essentially be denying myself. :)

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Originally Posted by masamune1600

While the initial analysis of the story was interesting, it fails to take into account certain realities. First of all, Ivalice is based on St. Ivalice only in the loosest interpretation possible. Ivalice is the product of desire, and the character's desires are all centered around their own experiences. Since the backstory of St. Ivalice is crucial to defining their desires, traces of St. Ivalice are imbued into the framework of the dreamworld. Ivalice is separate from St. Ivalice; it is the physical manifestation of the characters' desires, especially those of Mewt. Desire is a product of experience, so Mewt's experiences, positive and negative, join with the concept of 'Final Fantasy' to form the true template for Ivalice.

I like the idea of Mewt's friends being pulled into Ivalice to signify the different aspects of his personality. However, script analysis would seem to suggest utter independence on the part of the characters. They may reflect Mewt's struggle, but only because they are an influential and independent dynamic.

What really bothers me is the suggestion that leaving Ivalice essentially constitutes genocide. I would propose instead the opposite: staying in Ivalice is genocide, or something similar to it. If all the events are symbolic of Mewt's (and the others) inner turmoil, then the idea of physical manifestation is irrelevant. Mewt could have been dreaming. However, Ivalice is more than a dream; it is a dream taken physical form. The instrument of this substantiation is the Gran Grimoire, an object that for the purpose of the story must be interpreted to have actual power to affect the real world. In that case, I will propose the following: Ivalice and reality cannot exist concurrently. By substantiating the dream, reality becomes the dream. Only as Ivalice unravels does reality begin to become clear again.

That, of course, is what makes the Gran Grimoire so dangerous. It holds the power to mold reality to one's desires, but in molding reality one loses it. The disappearance of Ivalice is irrelevant; it is Mewt's (and maybe the others') dreamings and desires. Hence, leaving Ivalice would be akin to me creating a character in my mind, then dismissing the notion. However, because the Gran Grimoire "threads" reality and fantasy, they cannot both exist. This paradox is best understood in this way: as part of reality, the characters are based in it. A dream doesn't matter; everyone dreams. But by physically projecting themselves into fantasy, reality is either stopped or discarded. Ivalice, nothing more than a dream, becomes reality. Therefore, the perpetuation of Ivalice implies the perpetual negation of our world. While Ivalice exists, we don't.

The Gran Grimoire, then, can ultimately be interpreted as a manifestation of temptation. Everyone has experiences they would prefer to discard. However, in giving into the temptation of the book, one negates oneself. By bringing making dreams real, one loses his or her real self. In giving into that ultimate temptation, one forsakes everything everyone has ever done for them. They discard the world.

Hence, it was necessary for Marche to overcome his doubts and concerns, since he was the only one who realized the deception that is Ivalice. Pain is sometimes necessary for growth, and in dismissing the reality of pain, the characters nearly locked themselves in the eternal stasis of perceived perfection.

Wow, and I'm not even a particularly huge fan of FFTA. I mean, seriously, FFT is FAR superior. But, hey, now you all have something to think about.

EDIT: oh, by the way, if you couldn't tell from what I wrote above, I would definitely go back. Otherwise, I'd essentially be denying myself. :)

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Oh boy, this is going to be fun. I'll address this one paragraph at a time. I may have to come back to edit it, because I have school in about ten minutes.

1) There is nothing to suggest that it takes the desires of the other characters into consideration at all. I pointed out how the fulfillment of the other character's wishes could still be simply a reflection of Mewt's desires. Also, I agree that Ivalice is only loosely based on St. Ivalice. However, I disagree that St. Ivalice was crucial to defining Mewt's desires. His main desires were to stop being picked on and to get his mother back. Those desires are totally independant of St. Ivalice.

2) I also agree that they were independant. They were pulled in to signify aspects of Mewt's personality, but they represented those aspects of his personality because those were the aspects that were most important to them. Doned, who has never been able to play and have fun, jumps at the chance to do so in Ivalice. Ritz continues to stand against bullies, as she did in Ivalice. Cid is the most controversial, because he had the biggest change in the personality from St. Ivalice to Ivalice. However, most of that can be dismissed fairly easily, because Remedi is in Ivalice, and we have no idea how Cid would act if Remedi was back. True, all the characters have other desires. Marche wants to stay too, remember? Don't mistake me, I do believe that Marche, Ritz, Doned, and Cid are still their own people. If they were just representing Mewt's personality, they wouldn't care about the other things they had in Ivalice (ie: Ritz wouldn't care that she had red hair in Ivalice, and Doned wouldn't care that he could run). They would just be representing that aspect of his personality and acting simply based upon it. But because they are their own people, they also have their own desires that come into play as well.

Damn, it's time for me to go. I'll be back around noon to finish up.

(Oh, and maybe FFT was better. I said I haven't played it yet. :cry: )

Unfortunately, I'm going to be adding a few more points here. When you get back, you can choose to address them if you like.

First off, everything I wrote is a personal interpretation and analysis of the deeper meaning behind the game. I did not attempt to explain exactly why or how events unfolded as they did; I merely attempted to demonstrate one way of examining the game on a deeper level.

St. Ivalice is necessarily involved with Mewt's desires, simply because his experiences occurred there. The context of St. Ivalice is thus applied to his desires, so it stands to reason that it would present itself in Ivalice. I noted that these are only trace elements; they do not define his desires, but they cannot be completely removed.

Okay, onto some pure speculation. These ideas don't have much to support them; this is just something to consider.

First off, the Battle Queen (Remedi) had to be the second to final fight, while Li-Grim/Remedi had to be the final boss. Remedi was Mewt's single greatest desire, so, thematically, the game had to conclude with this battle. However, Li-Grim, the embodiment of the desires of Ivalice, must still be overcome. With Mewt having finally accepted reality, the false reality of Ivalice makes one final attempt to perpetuate itself. This battle, then, is finally defeating the greatest temptation: that of the Grimoire. With this victory, reality can return.

Now, for something really speculative: the crystals. If the crystals were not necessary world-threads, if Ivalice remained after all the crystals had been destroyed, what was their purpose? And if Ivalice remained, why did the destruction of crystals trigger Mewt's memories? I would propose that the crystals were the embodiment of the desires of the inhabitants of Ivalice. These inhabitants were derivative of Mewt's mind; therefore, each crystal shattered also shattered part of the illusion. The vast charade of Ivalice lost collective desire as each crystal was destroyed, and so Ivalice did unravel, but not completely. The crystals, in embodying Ivalice's desires, can also be interpreted as memories. Mewt's memories gave rise to the inhabitants; their desires were a function of Mewt's memories. In wanting to forget, to push the memories of reality away, Mewt defined the desire of Ivalice as a desire to exist. This existance would nullify reality, sealing away the unpleasant memories of suffering. So, each crystal's destruction forced memory back to Mewt.

The world of Ivalice seems a function of desire, formed around the concept of Final Fantasy. While I endorse the idea that the 'Final Fantasy' mentioned early on is in fact FFXII (because of the races, Judges, Ivalice, etc.), I also feel the concept of the entirety of the series was important in the formation of our dreamworld. Here's why. If one accepts the crystal theory stated above, then the crystals are inseparable from memory. FFIX, anyone? However, crystals are in many FF's. Beyond that, the crystals were defended by the Totema. Each Totema, according to a number of sources, is derived from a boss in a previous Final Fantasy. Exodus is FFV's Ex-Death, Ultima is FFT's Altima (or, I suppose you could even argue for FFVI's Atma, since Atma is a mistranslation of Ultima. Still, Altima makes more sense), Adrammalech is FFT's Adramelk (a mistranslation), Mateus is FFII's Emperor Palamecia/Paramekia (not sure about the name difference), and Famfrit is FFIII's Dark Cloud (both name and appearance changed, so I'm not certain on this). In any case, with the guardians of the crystals drawn from other FF's, it almost seems as though the series itself seeks to perpetuate its new reality, again only as a function of Mewt's desire.

Of course, the Totema names will all probably be in FFXII (I've seen a few so far), which would complicate the above suggestion. Nonetheless, the above suggestion is possible at the very least.

Okay, you all now have more to mull over. Get to it!

Congratulations! I'm glad someone got the origin of the Totema names.

Anyway, I'm a little busy (organizing a lynch mob to go down to Florida and hang Michael Schiavo and a couple judges), so I'll just toss out one quick counterpoint for now. Your theory leaves a major part of the story unaddressed. Why is Ivalice still there when you beat the game? I've heard people argue that they just did it so that you could keep playing, but that arguement is flawed, because when you complete the corrupt judge missions, the game ends and you can't keep playing. Since they're going to stop your game anyway, why would they let you keep playing after Ivalice is gone? My theory accounts for this. Yours ignores it completely. And, if the two worlds cannot exist simultaeniously, what happens to Mewt after you beat the game? He's not in Ivalice anymore. Are you saying that Marche killed him by forcing him out of Ivalice?

Well, it makes much more sense form a thematic point of view to end the game after the Li-Grim fight (and you can see the credits). However, the continuation of Ivalice is simple: Marche is still there. His continued presence is all the world needs to continue. Until he leaves, our world is at best an alternate reality. For them to exist concurrently would constitute some type of spatial paradox, so I guess you could say reality is 'frozen in place' until Ivalice is allowed to fade. If Mewt has returned, then, under my theory, he and everyone else are locked in a kind of unknowing stasis. In all probability, the events of Ivalice, once it has disappeared, took place instantaneously in our world. Thus, when Marche and the others return, the world takes up where it left off. However, if Ivalice never fades, then reality never continues.

Just a theory.

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Anyway, I'm a little busy (organizing a lynch mob to go down to Florida and hang Michael Schiavo and a couple judges)

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Your not being serious are you? Sorry but I'm really dodgy about lynchings...I'm in Australia and in Moder History we are learning about the racial relations of the USA and some of those things they do.... You better have been joking around, and even so, you shouldn't joke about such a thing.

hey im back (probably for the last time)

as you noticed i havent posted in a while that is because my english isnt good enough (sorry im dutch) and i cant always understand what you guys are saying and its getting way to compicated for me now to go on with this :( but ill keep reading cause i like all the theories

ltr sky

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Originally Posted by yuripa

Your not being serious are you? Sorry but I'm really dodgy about lynchings...I'm in Australia and in Moder History we are learning about the racial relations of the USA and some of those things they do.... You better have been joking around, and even so, you shouldn't joke about such a thing.

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(I'm joking in that I'm not actually going down to Florida to kill the guy. I am sorely tempted to, however. Since the courts seem to be unable to uphold the law, a lynching may be the only way to save an innocent woman from murdering scumbags.)

So Marche sticks a few million people in limbo until he decides to return to Ivalice? If he decides to return to Ivalice.

Returning home is what disgusts me I would so badly love to join legions with ritz and kill marche revive him kill him again goto a jag kill him and take the game over since hes gone

Thanks! I was getting a bit worried

I still wonder was destroying Ivalice right?
If I was Ritz I would allow myself to be so weak and let Marche pass.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

So Marche sticks a few million people in limbo until he decides to return to Ivalice?

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If by Ivalice you mean St. Ivalice, then, according to my interpretation, yes.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

(You're lucky then. You'll survive this "discussion". I use swords, not fists... :D )

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just remember when you get in an arguement with me that i own high power sniper rifles, a gernade, and a few throwing needles that you would find in yuor back...hehehe

anyway, not important, i wanted to praise you in hiding that...um...story ruiner...thingy...what is that called? anyway, i almost skipped over it and thought that you was being a $m@rt@$$! you taught me something for future reference!

if i got warped, i would flip humanity off and head for the life as a viera like Ritz did(wether she meant to or not) i would learn the arts of the assassin, and then learn the arts of the white mage because you'd never think a white mage was deadly, when his high MP count and ability to heal himself would make him more deadly. then i would suround mysilf with an assassin/summoner, a gunner/time mage, a paladin/hunter(w/ dbl sword), a beastmaster/ilusionist, and a Dragoon/item user. everyone that could would learn reflex and those who couldn't, would learn some form of counter.

after that, i would be a Stalker in the shadows of the mercenary business. because i made this up on the spot, i must retire so that i can do that...maybe later...

As much as I would love that world and hate this world.... I think I would go back. I wouldn't be like Marche nor Ritz.

That's the most simple and best way of putting it.