I think we can all agree that all of us pretty much pay a lot of taxes. But, I guarantee you if you took all the money in taxes back, eliminated the government, and bought all the same services through the private sector, you'd end up spending a lot more money. You act as if taxes are a big pit you throw money in without any expectation of ever getting any return. For starters, the government provides your military paycheck.
Yes, the government provides my military paycheck. Through taxes. That I have to pay taxes on. (Well, I didn't while I was in Iraq, because that's a combat zone, but I do otherwise.) Actually, that's how I knew that they would tax my tax return. I found out about it, and figured that I was getting paid with tax dollars, which I pay taxes on, but if I pay too much and they give some back, they tax that while they give it back to me too. Tax goes up, comes down, goes up, comes down, goes up. (By the way, a "tax return/refund" is a free loan to the government.)
I don't have a problem with paying taxes--it's obviously something that needs to be done for a government to run properly. I do, however, have a problem with some of the things our taxes are going towards, and if these programs weren't in place, we wouldn't be having to pay as many taxes. Social Security is a fraud and a scam, and is in need of some major reform. Many other spending programs need reform and cuts. That's one of the problems I have with Bush--I think The Redneck mentioned this in another topic, as well. He hasnt' vetoed a spending bill yet.
Some services can and should be provided through the private sector, for less money, better quality, or both.
Like healthcare?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasquatch
Precisely. Like healthcare. It's not the government's responsibility to provide healthcare for all of their citizens, not to mention that socialized medicine carries very low standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by eestlinc
socialized health care in fact has saved my life and millions like me. it is not of a poor standard. it has allowed people no matter what their income to gain live saving treatment that they might not have had the chance to have. you only ned to look at the guys to the doctos when it was first created or to the qeues to nhs dentists opening up to see how many people to has helped and saved.
sasquatch a lorry is a truck.
sasquatch could you live quite happil without men to pick up your garbage? you need them. as much as they might one day need a brain surgeon or lawyer. but he is necessary in today's society and should be rewarded for that as an equal man doing an equal days work.
Socialized medicine is a giant government HMO.
And could I live happily without men that come pick up my garbage? Sure. Not as happy as I am now, but I guess it's not too much of an inconvenience to toss my garbage in the back of my truck and haul it off to dump it somewhere. Hell, I might even go around the block and say "Hey, if you give me a couple bucks a week, I'll toss your garbage in my truck too, so you don't have to." And then, what do you know, I'm a garbage man.
I highly doubt anybody needs garbage men as much as people need surgeons. It's not "an equal days work". There's a big difference in what it takes to be a ditch-digger and a neurosurgeon. And because of that, there's a big difference in what they're paid. Socialism isn't right, isn't fair, and doesn't work, get over it.
sorry for ignorance but what is HMO?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_...e_organization
They're private insurance groups that people join to get their health care.
HMOs are known for giving shoddy health care. As in, "We don't want to give this to you, we don't think it's worth it."
the NHS works like this. you go into your doctors, tell him your symptoms, he either diagnoses you or gives you a prescription, or he sends you to hospital for tests, you then wait for these tests and once you get the results you are then treated. at no point is your bank account checked, your membership of an organisation, no financial grounda are needed. if you need the brain surgery then you will get the brain sugery no matter if you need to pay for it or the cost.
Socialized medicine doesn't exactly work like that. I indirectly know a doctor from Detroit who says he's constantly treating Canadian patients who come over the border to get the medical care that the Canadian socialized medicine program won't allow for them. Thing's like the government saying "no, sorry, you're too old for that transplant, we're gonna keep that liver for a younger person because you've outlived your usefulness."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasquatch
That may be true, but its its still better to have free health care. I mean, in america, there are people who just cant afford the BASIC stuff. If socialized medicine was as bad as you make it out to be, millions of canadians and millions of people all around the world would be knocked down the boarders for our health care. For being the richest nation in the world, we could raise the standards on it. But we wont. Why? because america cares to much about money and not enough about the people. The majority of people dont want tax dollors paying for nobody elses. healthcare. Hell, we already fund social security and medicare for older people, god knows we dont want to really help people in need. specially homeless people, its their fault they are homeless and living in the street so they dont deserve the chance to accually have access to life saving health care :rolleyes2 :rolleyes2(heavy sarcasm). Therefore, we will never have free health care. No one cares enough.
That's right, I don't care about other people. Let them take care of themselves. That's their job. It's not the government's job to support its populace. There's a difference in people who really do need help, and people who have squandered their lives and have gotten themselves where they are. The people who need help because of something out of their control, I would love to help them. The people that screw their lives up, don't come whining to me.
It's not "free health care". It's terribly poor health care, at the cost of everybody who may or may not use it. As for people from all over the world coming in to America for its health care...that already happens.
Try this. Every time you say "the government should pay for ____", replace "the government" with "I". "I should pay for my neighbor's healthcare", "I should pay for my neighbor's education", "I should pay so that my neighbor makes as much money as I do". Because that's what's happening.
actually that is how socialized mediceine works. i've used it countless time and it's served me very well. and if you count saving millions of lives poor health care then i would like to see the good. and why shouldn't you help pay for it anyway? i's a wholey selfish view to say that because you have money you will only spend it on yourself and noone else no matter what the concequences. if you are poor and were found to have some horrible disease or cancer that requied lots of money to treat then what? you just let them die? for what? being poor or for getting sick? because if you are going to let a man die for being poor then i fond that a little bit selfish and immoral.
and at the same time i pay for my neighbours helth care and education i pay for my own and receieve equal care. i am an equal human being to a rich man and so i receive equal helth care and education. i am not left to die or be ignorant because of my financial status. that is why socialized medicine works. because people are equal when it comes to these basic requirements.
Normal health insurance isn't so expensive that only rich people can afford it. A working person can afford insurance, it's pretty simple.
As for poor people having to deal with their health problems, it would depend on what made them poor, and what caused the problems. Sure, everybody deserves a boost when they need it, but some people live off this. If they got poor because they got knocked up or on drugs and didn't finish high school, didn't do anything to better their lives or their income, then their decisions led them to their situation. (Not that they deserve to die, of course, but it is their fault they're in that predicament.) If they are poor because of some type of disabling accident, there are plenty of ways to still make money without working, especially from the government.
How would you like it if you turned 60 and needed a transplant, but the government decided it wasn't a good investment and instead let you die? (Because this is what happens.) How is that any "better" than letting a poor person die, as you would put it, because he can't afford it?