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I can't beleive we actually agree on something. :pQuote:
And while many of those would be "average Joes", there would also be a huge number who grew up using guns and stalking game, and a lot of ex-soldiers who would know exactly what they're doing.
Good question (that no one seems to want to answer...hmm).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Nexus
I am an Israeli soldier, performing a duty I can say nothing of. Here is what I've got to say to the American (and also non-American) soldiers on this board, regarding those who speak ill of the US and its troopers...
First - suck it up! You are soldiers, doing your duty (whatever that is), so that the ideals upon which the United States are established live on, and so that American citizens are not harmed. One of these values is the democratic value of Freedom of Speech - meaning, every bastard can say whatever he wants, even if it's extremely offensive. You will live, work and die so that that ignorant, oblivious and hateful American can say whatever he wants, without fear. You are a soldier, because had that citizen lived in Saudi Arabia, Syria or China, he wouldn't have been able to say such things, or he would be executed\imprisoned for saying them.
I hope I've got that point through. You have to take the sweet (and there is much sweetness to be found, if you but look for it, with the love and appreciation of many American citizens), along with the bitter. You cannot pick what you want.
Here, this problem isn't as predominant as it is the US. Soldiers here are nearly revered for the sacrifices they make... people here have lost family and friends to the enemy (and there is a lot more than just one, or even a hundred), and should the hounour of those that died for noble causes, or those that live to protect, be harmed... they'd take it personally. Very, very personally.
Few are still ignorant or deluded enough to speak ill of the troops... but they are not many, and not as vocal as they are in other places. Most here know the price of freedom and security - which are the blood, tears and sweat of many a soldier, doctors, cops, and everyone else who serves the public.
As for those who are devilish enough to disgrace those who sacrifice - shut up, really. I'd like to see you stand in-front of someone who has lost a loved one, and tell them it's alright they died, or perhaps that they deserved it. Can you do that? If not, good. If yes - I hope you can look at yourself in the mirror, 'cause those horns don't look too nice. It's one thing to criticise the goverment (which Americans do way too much, seemingly forgetting they elected that goverment, not taking any responsibility) or some of the actions of some of the soldiers (and yes, some troops forget why they are what they are, and lean towards the side of evil, doing dis-honourable things, disgracing the name of others), than to say hateful, pointless things about values you know nothing of.
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Originally Posted by War Angel
I don't understand...if you're the soldier, you're the one doing the killing of the loved ones, are you not? Why is it ok so long as it's not the people you know/live next to dying?Quote:
Originally Posted by War Angel
I kill (or assist those who kill), so that the enemy cannot perform his own plans on killing us. Of-course my own loved ones are more important to me than my enemy's! I would not think twice before killing one of the enemy's men, to save my own. That's just how human nature is - we protect what is ours, what we care for and love. I don't really see the point in your question.Quote:
Why is it ok so long as it's not the people you know/live next to dying?
I don't see anywhere in this thread where anyone has said it is alright for a soldier to die, or that they deserved it. Just saying the average soldier is not a hero/extraordinary. They may be good people and most likely are, but that doesn't make them extraordinary.. I know many good people and a few great people, but I've yet to make an acquantance of an extraordinary person.
The average soldier is just that - average. However, there is nothing average about risking your life, or performing a duty that will save lives. Non-combat soldiers who dedicate their lives are to be praised, too... though, it is not quite as risking life and limb (literally) for a greater cause, or simply to save your friends, who are risking their own life for you, the nation and the people living in it.Quote:
Just saying the average soldier is not a hero/extraordinary.
A fireman is a hero. A doctor is a hero. ANYONE who does their job\duty, and their job has a direct effect on people's lives (and the risk of losing them), is a hero in my eyes. The sheer and absolute responsibility for life, death and everything in between... that's like being a God on Earth, almost.
war angel a man until his last paragraph there i disagreed with has made a few points. but i'll point out a few i believe false.
you say that the non-combat soldiers are not as great as combat soldiers. but surely there are just as important. they provide you with intel that could save your life, maintain the equipment you fight with, transport you, cook your meals etc.
but again these men are doing what they signed up for. what the job entails and what they agreed to. and this isn't a job which is selfless it's a two way thing. like any job if you do a job which is required enough it is paid highly and not only that comes with alot of perks. the very healthy pension and scholarships being two. i on the other hand perform a job which is not as required as a soldier nor as dangerous (save ripping a few ligaments on a bouncy castle) and i have a job with less perks. once i've been ro uni gained a degree and have a better job which is more required (i'm studying software engineering just for detail) then i bloody well hope i am paid more and have a better life for that. if the enemy was a totally selfless job and everyone in it was heros then i will throw up a question. if the army was toally voluntary without pay or pension how many people here would still have enlisted for the "sake of queen and country" or would you have chosen another job and career like i would if i was told i wouldn't be paid for a job i had though of doing?
of course there are people who do something purely out of pure goodness without pay the RNLI being by far the most obvious. these people risk their life everyday for no wage at all same with the international brigades in spain. i must say i hold these men in higher regard than i do soldiers.
this is not to say i don't respect soldiers for what they do. i do. this is not what this thread was about. i respect them as much as any other man and i respect an exceptional or courageous soldier the same way i respect a man who has done great things outside the military.
this thread was closer to "a man is a man no matter he does to earn his money and deserves equal respect" than anything else and i believe it has been twisted a great deal.
war angel as much as i diagree with the war in the middle east and israeli actions and orders you may have been given i do not think lowly of any soldier though i will think of any crimes he commits. so i do respect you for what you have done and that goes for any other soldier who has reads and/or has been offended by thsi thread. it was not meant in the terms many took it.
also i am not american so never elected their government and so shoudl be free to critisice them. and i did not elect my own government as i will not be permitted to vote in the general election until i am 21 forcing me to live under them and critisice them as much as i want until then.
Exactly.Quote:
A fireman is a hero. A doctor is a hero. ANYONE who does their job\duty, and their job has a direct effect on people's lives (and the risk of losing them), is a hero in my eyes.
You are bringing something up that can be found nowhere in this thread. Nobody has said anything about it being okay for someone to have died, or that they deserved it. I don't know where you get these dumb ideas from.Quote:
As for those who are devilish enough to disgrace those who sacrifice - shut up, really. I'd like to see you stand in-front of someone who has lost a loved one, and tell them it's alright they died, or perhaps that they deserved it.
Also, I refuse to "shut up" just because you don't like what I'm saying.
Nobody is saying hateful things. We simply said soldiers arent heros by default. This, of course, pissed you off, because you are a soldier. Nobody is saying hateful things about soldiers. Sorry, but they aren't.Quote:
to say hateful, pointless things about values you know nothing of.
I disagree. A fireman is a fireman, and a doctor is a doctor. A fireman who goes beyond what is required of his job and puts something he values at risk to help another is a hero. Same with a doctor, same with a soldier.Quote:
A fireman is a hero. A doctor is a hero. ANYONE who does their job\duty, and their job has a direct effect on people's lives (and the risk of losing them), is a hero in my eyes.
First of all, nobody becomes a soldier for the money. The money, college assistance, whatever might help, but anybody who thinks "I'm gonna enlist in the military and get rich!" is incredibly ignorant.
Secondly, when every job requires its employees to spend months in training, get put through physical, mental, and emotional abuse, leave their families and friends for months or years at a time, learn completely new skills that wouldn't be useful to 99% of the civilian population, spend countless hours without food or sleep in the harshest of natural conditions, and be located in places surrounded by people with the means and motive to kill you with a wide variety of weapons...when everybody's job entails that, then, and only then, can you say that soldiers are no more heroic than anybody else.
That IS a soldier's job. That's what they sign up for, that's what they know they'll do. And that's why they do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0tine
War Angel -- Frankly, don't expect those who have never been soldiers to understand it. Just as we didn't understand as much before we became soldiers, those who have never been, and will never be, soldiers will never understand it.
hmm... i think anyone who signs the contract, shouldnt be called a NON-combat soldier, i mean i dont know how it is in Israel, but here there is no such thing. Even if ur scrubbing toliets u can be called upon to battle. In the Air Force we have a few mechanics who were called upon, to supplement the Army by defending convoys in Iraq, on the ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by War Angel
"A professional soldier knows that war means killing people, war means maiming people, war means families left without fathers and mothers. All you have to do is hold your first dying soldier in your arms, and have that terribly futile feeling that his life is flowing out and you can't do anything about it. Then you understand the horror of war. Any soldier worth his salt should be anti-war. And still there are things worth fighting for."
--General H. Norman Schwarzkopf
nicely said.Thats what I've been trying to say but hey I'm not even in the military so its tough to be that direct.Its something my dad would've said what you said that is.Quote:
Originally Posted by War Angel
nik0tine your arguement is futile.One thing is.Doctors,Fireman,Police officers,and soldiers,and other jobs.All contribute.They are heroes by default when they go out there and do there jobs no questions asked.Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0tine
Have you seen the forest fires in California.Its like a 200 feet tall wall of fire and fireman jsut rush and run right into it.That takes guts because from weere i was standing the heat blistered my skin.
When i saw these two undercover cops make a bust on a drug lord.They tried there best to make sure civilians were cleared out the area jsut in case the guy had a gun and the guy did have a ugna nd he did use it.That police officer died.Have you seen someone killed right in your face.You wouldn't understand if you never experienced it.
Soldiers are fighting for your right to say what your saying.They're dying for those reason and you have the nerve to lower there meaning in life.I mean they have a right to have opposition of what you are saying and you have a right to say what you are saying.What defines us is what we say and how we say it.
Please don't double post. --foa