Bush losing Stem Cell battle

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they have no chance of ever becoming children either.

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Why don't they? You need to read my first belief. Yes an embryo can become a child. We don't make them for fun.. unless they are made in a lab to be destroyed. A lot of these embryos are made in labs or left overs from invetro attempts.

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Originally Posted by cloud no.9

This is the main point. these are not children. these are a few cells in pretty much the same form as flu. no shape or form. just a batch of cells. not a child. not with thought or feeling. bacteria don't scream when you bleach the toilet.

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Originally Posted by cloud no.9

they're equavilent is a brain dead human on life support. technically alive. but not really alive in the common sense. no brain function. no pain, emotion or thought. breathes and has a heart beat but isn't really alive.

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You can say this all you want and poke at thier present state. Who cares if they feel the pain - you are taking human life - bottome line. It is not that hard to agree with. You even say they are alive, and keep comparing them with the most disgusting things possible. They are our children to be, and should not be "disposed of" in such a horible fasion.
They should be laid to rest with the respect that they deserve. I know that seems a litttle extreme - but they are human life.

Bipper

they don't have a chance because they were created in a lab artificially. and stem cell research will be done with created embreyo's. it's more effecient to industrialize it that way.

at one point we have to turn the life machine off for the brain dead. and if he has been so kind we can cut him open and take out all the useful bits. same thing for embreyo's.

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and if he has been so kind

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Yes, see he had a choice. Why can we farm humans than speak for the embryos? If i was an embryo and I was made to dye - I would be pissed, and would not allow my innards. Simple as that

Bipper

but if you were embreyo you wouldn't have thought at all. you would have throughout your entire existence been in the same state as a brain dead man on life support.

Prehapse, an embryo cannot make decisions on your scale. But i dont think they want to die. -_- Because they can't think with the nerological system that we do - does not by anymeans give us the right to think for them.


BTW do you have any kids? just a question.

(As read in a book from Alina hospitals and clinics: Pegnancy Birth and Beyond) By 3 weeks they have a nervous system, spine and a brain. Scientific proof. (APPLAUSE) The egg is done with week one when it is fertilized (this is the week of the period basically) as the cells divid into week 2 and three they are considere embryos. So an embryo already has a nerulogical system developing.

There for an embryo does have a nervouse system

THANK YOU!

Bipper

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Originally Posted by lordblazer

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Originally Posted by SomethingBig

What people refuse to realize is that the embryos from which they get the ESCs will eventually die, anyway. These are embryos without families and lives. The life of a person with people who care about them takes precedence over a cell that would die within a matter of days. Many people also refuse to see the possibilities of stem cell research and its benefits. Not only is it a cure for many diseases, it is a potential cure for cancer and HIV and AIDS.

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WEll as long as the people remain stupid.They will always be to pro life.

I'm for life but I'm also for choice and also.I think that stem cell research will be very beneficial.

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OK. I'm going to show you exactly what's wrong with that statement and others like it.

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What people refuse to realize is that the [embryos] {random ethnic group} from which they get the ESCs {Body Parts} will eventually die, anyway. These are embryos{random ethnic group} without families and lives. The life of a person with people who care about them takes precedence over a cell that would die within a matter of days. Many people also refuse to see the possibilities of stem cell research and its benefits. Not only is it a cure for many diseases, it is a potential cure for cancer and HIV and AIDS

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The problem is that the only reason that we are considering ESC and not other versions of the same thing (on say the gitmo prisoners), is that we've assigned humans who haven't yet passed through the birth canal as something less than other people. Something that would never be accepted on any other basis. We wouldn't even concider doing research that we knew would harm a person to any other group. You wouldn't look at a kid with a disability and say "gee, lets take out her liver, it could save a life", nor would you say that about an ethnic minority, as in "gee, that Jew/Muslim/Black/Mexican is going to die anyway, lets kill him for research". Life is just as fatal to all of us. All of us are going to die. That doesn't give me the right to my neighbor's life.

And embryos are human. At least until you can point me to a news article in which a pregnant woman gives birth to another animal.

"The problem is that the only reason that we are considering ESC and not other versions of the same thing (on say the gitmo prisoners)"

oh deary deary dear. the person defending the rights of aclump of cells would rather have suspects have medical testing on them. isn't that nice. mengele would be proud of your views. if only gitmo had twins in it then we could have some real fun experiments.

"By 3 weeks they have a nervous system, spine and a brain." but these only last 15 days. not even time for that.

i could kill more cells in these things with a heavy nights drinking.

it's on a teeny tiny scale.

and bipper a word of advice don't use the mengele sympathiser for support. this was a good discussion before someone decided that forced human trials on prisoners (nopt yet found guilty or charged) is a wonderful idea.

it would just taint this topic if you used someone with those views to argue on your side. your bigger than that.

Very well put sir. Thank you for joining in, I definatley appriciate the help and you views.


Bipper

well i tried to stop that....... ah well can't win them all.

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and bipper a word of advice don't use the mengele sympathiser for support. this was a good discussion before someone decided that forced human trials on prisoners (nopt yet found guilty or charged) is a wonderful idea.

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I started posting before yours went up.. prehapse you can describe to me what you mean here.

Also a complete nervous system by 3 weeks mean that they still have a developing nervous system. The embryo becomes and embryo at about oneweek/two weeks (add 1 week to the time for the the first period week)- so a 3 weeks right there for your youngest embryo. huh weird. The forms before this are blastoid and zygote..

bipper

gnostic yevon there made the comment "The problem is that the only reason that we are considering ESC and not other versions of the same thing (on say the gitmo prisoners)"

the gitmo to what she is referring to is where america holds it's terrorist and "illegal fighter" prisoners. they are held without trial or charge for up to 4 years. you might know it as guantanamo bay or camp x-ray. it has a wealth of informationon the techniques of "persuation" used in it to gain intelligence.

gnostic yevon seems to suggest experimenting on these prisoners. which something mengele did.

jospeh mengele was a surgeon in auschwitz. he had little bits of fun taking children and people who were about to be gassed and performing lovely experiments on them instead. he was not a nice man to say the least.

gnostic yevon and mengele seem to share similiar idealogy.

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Also a complete nervous system by 3 weeks mean that they still have a developing nervous system. The embryo becomes and embryo at about oneweek/two weeks (add 1 week to the time for the the first period week)- so a 3 weeks right there for your youngest embryo. huh weird. The forms before this are blastoid and zygote..

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All animals have nervous systems. So?

The fact of the matter is that an embryo is not and cannot be considered human at 10-15 days, unless you want to never kill any animal that is similarly or more developed than a 10-day-old embryo and outlaw birth control. It's absurd.

by that line of thought we would have to outlaw all forms of meat products because they are more developed and can also feel the pain. it just wouldnt work.

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All animals have nervous systems. So?

The fact of the matter is that an embryo is not and cannot be considered human at 10-15 days, unless you want to never kill any animal that is similarly or more developed than a 10-day-old embryo and outlaw birth control. It's absurd.

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I think that comment was absurd - in your twisted way you are saying that humans and animals are the same. While we eat animals, and have for a long time, I am looking mainly at HUMAN life. Even bringing animal life in as a comparison is just-- stupid. Human rights is the issue here... not animal rights.

And yes - a embryo is considered human at 10 - 15 days by scientists and most credible people. There are a few that may not - but the concensus is yea - a embryo/fetus is a person. Eesh.

bipper

I have to disagree that animal life is necessarily lower or unimportant as human life. It may not be equal(different, but not any less lower necessarily) but that doesnt make the point any less valid. You only value human life to that degree, not everyone else does, and thats the problem here. When Embryos are not even going to have that chance to become human, whats the point? Are we going to give it a chance and watch it die when someone else could possibly die if that embryo died?

People die every day(not trying to devalue life itself to anyone, but its true), its either one or the other here. Which is it going to be? Its not like we are stealing embryos from women out there too. But seriously which is it going to be?

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And yes - a embryo is considered human at 10 - 15 days by scientists and most credible people. There are a few that may not - but the concensus is yea - a embryo/fetus is a person. Eesh.

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May i read this concensus? More than one or even two sources are preferable and probably as unbiased as they can be.