Who is stronger?

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02-20-2006, 08:29 PM
Ryushikaze

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1-Adels is awakening making her weaker.

She was subsuming other people. She was awake.

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2-Her powers were just sealed.
What if by "sealed" the game means "stored in a closed place" instead of just "suppressed"?
The word "sealed" means closed in.

Burden of proof to show that they did anything other than keep her from using her powers.

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1-Who said Ulti is the only sorceress on the future?

Several people, several times, including herself. Not only that, but when she was dying, she was required to actually return back in time to pass her powers on, meaning there was no one even suitable to be a sorceress in her time other than herself, meaning there were no other sorceresses.

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2-Who can prove she is on the future either?No one has done it.
This one settles everything.

Let's see... she knows who SeeD are. SeeD was created 12 years prior to the start of FF8 when Squall in a timeloop gave Edea the idea. There was no such thing as SeeD before this time.
Similarly, Junction Machine Ellone could not exist before Ellone. By necessity, she must exist at some point when this machine does exist. It does not exist in the present day, nor did it exist in the past (and even if it did, it wouldn't matter, since it's one directional anyways).
Hence, future.

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3-It didn´t matter the stats or HP.

Oh yes, the best known method for comparing people within system doesn't matter. Makes perfect sense.

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Adel is much harder than Ulti´s first form.
It´s easy to see that if you are at the same level on Adel and Ulti´s fights Adel will be more difficult.
Ulti is easier than Edea´s second fight ever.
Maybe even the first fight(this one I am unsure).
That´s why Ulti needs Griever to fight you.
She just has more HP than Adel and Edea.

I absolutely disagree with all of this. I've FOUGHT them at the same level. Adel is easier, and that's even including the fact that Adel has a hostage.
02-20-2006, 10:04 PM
Qurange

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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1-Adels is awakening making her weaker.

She was subsuming other people. She was awake.

Actually, this one is accurate--remember the speech back in Laguna's office? The plan was to strike at Adel quickly, before she had the time to recover her powers and her bearings. (It would take time, even if you were partially awake, to recover from being stuck somewhere for seventeen years.) So, considering that I think that we can assume that Odine knew what he was talking about, Adel was in fact not fighting at her full power.

As for sealing her power, I don't see why they'd have needed to do much else; she couldn't move, she probably couldn't use her power for anything but to keep her muscles from atrophying, and I bet she went a bit more crazy. She could communicate, but I really don't see how 'sealing' or 'suppressing' would make much difference, in this case; Odine equipment does both.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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1-Who said Ulti is the only sorceress on the future?

Several people, several times, including herself. Not only that, but when she was dying, she was required to actually return back in time to pass her powers on, meaning there was no one even suitable to be a sorceress in her time other than herself, meaning there were no other sorceresses.

Actually, this is an assumption on your part. Firstly, there's no proof that Ultimecia was the last Sorceress in her time prior to Time Compression (though it's a reasonable assumption that if there are any she'd missed, they were hiding very well.) Secondly, the fact that Ultimecia went back in time didn't necessarily have anything to do with lacking a suitable successor in her time--and in fact, unless she'd really killed everyone in the world, I doubt that that was the case. I think it's more likely that, in her fractured state, she was unable to concentrate on very much, and ended up being swept along with Squall, back to the Sorceress she'd been controlling in the first place, and...

Well. That goes on from there.

And of course, I agree that it's ridiculous to state that Ultimecia wasn't from the future.

As to using game stats and deciding how hard the battles were, I don't really know of any objective way to combine those, which makes answering questions with them kind of difficult. We can easily explain most of the positions, though; Omega Weapon could have been more powerful (if only in combat) because he was an amalgamation of monsters, designed for killing, while the Sorceress wasn't quite so specialized. Ultimecia could have been easier becuase, despite her phenomenal cosmic Sorceress powers, a significant amount of them was tied up in absorbing time and space, leaving her what she used to fight the party. Adel, of course, was still not yet recovered. It's just a matter of thinking it out, and making sure it all fits.
02-20-2006, 11:28 PM
Future Esthar

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Let's see... she knows who SeeD are. SeeD was created 12 years prior to the start of FF8 when Squall in a timeloop gave Edea the idea. There was no such thing as SeeD before this time.
Similarly, Junction Machine Ellone could not exist before Ellone. By necessity, she must exist at some point when this machine does exist. It does not exist in the present day, nor did it exist in the past (and even if it did, it wouldn't matter, since it's one directional anyways).
Hence, future.

You are relying on information told by Odine which could be false.
Policeman don´t do this.They concentrate on physical proof.
So give me a proof or at list evidence or hint that she comes from the future based on physical proof other than dialogue.
I will start myself:

1-We don´t see the pictures on Ulti´s castle anywherwe on the "present".
2-On the "present" no one needs birds to send messages to anyone.
3-Monarchy seems to had ended on the present.We know from Solomon´s ring that it existed on the past.

Considering 1 and assuming Ulti lives on the future the paintings were made some years from the present,right?
So they describe events between the two times.
Which made them strange,specially "Red Clothes" and "Messenger".
Where is a picture of an elevator,a picture of a car,a picture of a radio or telephone (which would make more sense than "Messenger"),a picture of a train,a picture of a spaceship?
Some of these pictures depict ancient like cities and it didn´t make sense that people would make cities like that from the present on.
4-Suposedly Ultimecia made her Castle.She would had soldiers or she would not make the armory.Let´s see,what kinds of soldiers would dress that medieval armor?
Galbadian soldiers?Esthar soldiers?White SeeD?Seed?Traitor Seeds like Seifer?Some unknown country who borns on the future?
It must be a very traditionalist or conservative country,really.
I don´t really think it were monsters either.
Did Ulti made them magically?(lol)

People will argue about the clock,the Helix and other things like that but they just show that someone from the future is possessing Ulti and making that stuff through her.
02-21-2006, 05:29 AM
Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

You are relying on information told by Odine which could be false.

Burden of proof is on YOU to prove that he is. I can just as easily declare that Zell might be lying about his gender with equal validity.

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Policeman don´t do this.They concentrate on physical proof.
So give me a proof or at list evidence or hint that she comes from the future based on physical proof other than dialogue.

1- The towns and structures of the present still exist. This includes things which by their nature- such as paved roads, trains, etc. cannot be particularly old. Especially damning is fisherman's wharf.
2- Centra. It was wiped out within recent history of present. It is still as such in future. It would be different in past.

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I will start myself:
1-We don´t see the pictures on Ulti´s castle anywherwe on the "present".

Which means nothing. We don't see any of the vehicles in Episode one of SW in the OT.

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2-On the "present" no one needs birds to send messages to anyone.

Need, hell no. Still employed- YES. In our world of Phone, Internet, LIVE STREAMING INTERNATIONAL TELECONFERENCE, still have people who send messages via birds.

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3-Monarchy seems to had ended on the present.We know from Solomon´s ring that it existed on the past.

'Monarchy' can exist any time someone with enough power gets it into their head to call themselves such. And monarchy was not that long dead in FF8.

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Considering 1 and assuming Ulti lives on the future the paintings were made some years from the present,right?

No. Unwarranted assumption. All of your assumptions beyond this point hinge on this unwarranted assumption that these paintings did not exist in Squall's era.

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So they describe events between the two times.
Which made them strange,specially "Red Clothes" and "Messenger".
Where is a picture of an elevator,a picture of a car,a picture of a radio or telephone (which would make more sense than "Messenger"),a picture of a train,a picture of a spaceship?
Some of these pictures depict ancient like cities and it didn´t make sense that people would make cities like that from the present on.

Still hinging on that assumption, I see. The possibility that Ultimecia likes classical paintings never crossed your head, eh?

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4-Suposedly Ultimecia made her Castle.She would had soldiers or she would not make the armory.Let´s see,what kinds of soldiers would dress that medieval armor?

You assume that a crazy woman whose plan it is to effectively eat time and who employs monsters up the ying-yang to defend her personal space would A: Build an armory for a purpose instead of for appearances, or B: Actually employ HUMAN guards?

Heck, look up "Mad king Ludvig". That man put more useless stuff than an armory no one used in his castles, and he wasn't half as crazy as Ultipoo.

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Galbadian soldiers?Esthar soldiers?White SeeD?Seed?Traitor Seeds like Seifer?Some unknown country who borns on the future?
It must be a very traditionalist or conservative country,really.

Or it's kept for ceremonial purposes, if it's used at all. I know people who keep suits of armor as decoration, or to occasionally wear, not for any practical purpose.

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I don´t really think it were monsters either.
Did Ulti made them magically?(lol)

The armor? It's possible. It's also possible that she got so wrapped up in the classic 'romantic' idea of nobility that she gathered up all the ye olde crappe she could find and threw a castle together out of it.

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People will argue about the clock,the Helix and other things like that but they just show that someone from the future is possessing Ulti and making that stuff through her.

In a word- Bull. Medieval technology could not reconstruct such things. And if Ulti's doing it, then why can't she have simply created everything else herself?

Basically, your argument here is 'Well, it looks medieval-ish, so it must be that time.'
Do you realize how silly this is? If you blindfolded, KOd, and then woke up in a room decorated entirely in 70's fashion, but which had DISTINCT anachronisms- things which could not have POSSIBLY been constructed by the existing technologies of the 70's, would you honestly conclude that it must be the 70's?

Now then, I put the onus upon you to attempt to refute all this WITHOUT INVOKING YOUR THEORY. If you invoke your theory to DEFEND your theory, you will be using circular logic, and automatically fail.
02-21-2006, 05:40 AM
Noj_R

First, we are totally off topic, but I dont even see the point of this thread. It is going nowhere fast and has no point to it.

Anyway...

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

You are relying on information told by Odine which could be false.
Policeman don´t do this.They concentrate on physical proof.
So give me a proof or at list evidence or hint that she comes from the future based on physical proof other than dialogue.

I have proven that Odine CANNOT possess anyone and rendering Ulti undoubtedly from the future, in post #569 of the "1572 thread". Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty, police also use this, its called the law in America. If you are gonna use policeman logistics to prove your point then you cannot assume Odine is lying if there is zero evidence, he must first be assumed innocent.
02-21-2006, 06:52 AM
Russielloyd

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Originally Posted by Noj_R

First, we are totally off topic, but I dont even see the point of this thread. It is going nowhere fast and has no point to it.

Agreed. This topic should be closed, i mean the thread has gone so far from the topic, that you would need to catch a plane to get back.

Seriously, stay on topic.
02-21-2006, 07:00 AM
Ramza Beoulve

And 1 more think, were'nt we talking about who is stronger, if Adel or Omega Weapon?
02-21-2006, 09:41 AM
The Devourer Of Worlds

My head hurts reading this thread.
02-21-2006, 02:00 PM
Future Esthar

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I have proven that Odine CANNOT possess anyone and rendering Ulti undoubtedly from the future, in post #569 of the "1572 thread". Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty, police also use this, its called the law in America. If you are gonna use policeman logistics to prove your point then you cannot assume Odine is lying if there is zero evidence, he must first be assumed innocent.

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2- Centra. It was wiped out within recent history of present. It is still as such in future. It would be different in past.

Where is the evidence to support that Centra was wiped out in Ulti´s time?
Even so it was wiped out 100 years ago.Ulti might leave on the past less than 100 years ago.Who knows?
Very silly argument.

1-You hadn´t proven anything.I will soon reply to that.
2-No one can say Odine is lying but no one can base thruth on his words either.

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In a word- Bull. Medieval technology could not reconstruct such things. And if Ulti's doing it, then why can't she have simply created everything else herself?

Odine can time travel his gadgets from the future.

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If you blindfolded, KOd, and then woke up in a room decorated entirely in 70's fashion, but which had DISTINCT anachronisms- things which could not have POSSIBLY been constructed by the existing technologies of the 70's, would you honestly conclude that it must be the 70's?

As I said on the last answer....

Anyway,I had more evidence which support my theory about Ulti being from the past than the ones who seems to contradict it.
There are more things supporting this theory than things refuting it.

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1- The towns and structures of the present still exist. This includes things which by their nature- such as paved roads, trains, etc. cannot be particularly old. Especially damning is fisherman's wharf.

This one is interesting.
I allways thought that the portals were passages on time compression which leads to other times rather than teleporters.
They led to Squall´s era.
But people assume that it is on the future.
Why?
Everything refute it.
1-Edea´s house didn´t exist anymore on Ulti´s time.It exists on the world map.
2-Where is Ulti´s castle on the world map?
3-There are topological land differences between Ulti´s and present time.Where do we see this on the World map?
4-There weren´t any dialogues on the game suggesting that the portals don´t send people to other times.
5-White Seed ship is attached to Ulti´s castle.Where did it appear on the world map?
6-The world didn´t seem to change much for many generations.

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2- Centra. It was wiped out within recent history of present. It is still as such in future. It would be different in past.

Even if we can prove this to be true,Centra was wiped out 100 years ago.Who knows if Ulti´s time was less than 100 years ago?
02-21-2006, 07:11 PM
Ryushikaze

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1-You hadn´t proven anything.I will soon reply to that.
2-No one can say Odine is lying but no one can base thruth on his words either.

Burden of proof is always on the positive claim- IE, yours. You must now prove that his words cannot be trusted.

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

Where is the evidence to support that Centra was wiped out in Ulti´s time?

The continent IS SHATTERED. This happened, as mentioned, within recent history.

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Even so it was wiped out 100 years ago.Ulti might leave on the past less than 100 years ago.Who knows?
Very silly argument.

Back at you 100 fold.

So, you're proposing that technology in Final Fantasy 8 went from Medieval to Beyond present day high tech in a manner of less than 100 years?

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Odine can time travel his gadgets from the future.

BURDEN OF PROOF. And if we are time travelling things, it's just as easy to time travel painting and armor from the past, too.

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Anyway,I had more evidence which support my theory about Ulti being from the past than the ones who seems to contradict it.
There are more things supporting this theory than things refuting it.

No, since those things that DO contradict it being the past are ENOUGH. Again, I repeat the example of the Disco room with a few instances of future tech. Sane people do not assume future tech was brought back in time. Sane people assume retro decorators.

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This one is interesting.
I allways thought that the portals were passages on time compression which leads to other times rather than teleporters.
They led to Squall´s era.
But people assume that it is on the future.
Why?
Everything refute it.

No, child. Everything does not refute them being in the future, or the portals being teleporters rather than time travel gates.

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1-Edea´s house didn´t exist anymore on Ulti´s time.It exists on the world map.

The ruins thereof still exist, and that's enough to warrant a marker. They did as much for the ruins in which Odin is found.

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2-Where is Ulti´s castle on the world map?

Outside of time and space. Being inside what one eats, not so smart an idea. This idea has precedent within FF, when Exdeath tried a similar tactic with the X-zone and reality, and is used again in FF9 with Memoria.

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3-There are topological land differences between Ulti´s and present time.Where do we see this on the World map?

Why should we expect to see any significant topographic differences?

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4-There weren´t any dialogues on the game suggesting that the portals don´t send people to other times.

Unfortunately, so much of your postulation is reliant on us not being told something ISN'T the case, and handwaving away instances of people saying or doing things that kibosh your postulate.

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5-White Seed ship is attached to Ulti´s castle.Where did it appear on the world map?

It was attached to her castle. Ergo, outside reality.

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6-The world didn´t seem to change much for many generations.

Which it would when time travelling in either direction, but given the recent creation of much of the landmarks, it can't be the past.

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Even if we can prove this to be true,Centra was wiped out 100 years ago.Who knows if Ulti´s time was less than 100 years ago?

The fact that FH exists kiboshes this idea.

Basically, though, your big issue is that Ulti's castle does not appear on the world map, and so it must be elsewhen, despite precedent both before and after of dungeons which do not appear on the worldmap being outside of reality as it is usually thought of.
02-21-2006, 07:16 PM
Heero Yuy NWZC

FE, in another thread you have already been proven wrong on this topic. I would suggest that this discussion be dropped since it has already been resolved elsewhere.
02-21-2006, 11:25 PM
Future Esthar

I don´t think I had been proven wrong.

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Back at you 100 fold.

So, you're proposing that technology in Final Fantasy 8 went from Medieval to Beyond present day high tech in a manner of less than 100 years?

The world is already Time Compressed on the three first discs.
I had many threads on this.Go read them to understand the theory better.Ancient members know it better.
Esthar,Galbadia and Centra for example aren´t on the same era.
And since the hit was found to be on Centra 100 years ago It only passed 100 years on Centra.But people on FF8 don´t know the world is time compressed so they assume it to have passed 100 years on Galbadia and Esthar.
But that´s not the thruth.It passed much more than 100 years on both.
And we know that Centra is not that advanced.

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Sane people assume retro decorators.

What is that?

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The ruins thereof still exist, and that's enough to warrant a marker. They did as much for the ruins in which Odin is found.

Oh,yeah.What about the missile base?The marker changed.It often happens on FF.
Consider for instance the mideel town on FF7 whose marker changed after the lifestream blow.

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Outside of time and space. Being inside what one eats, not so smart an idea. This idea has precedent within FF, when Exdeath tried a similar tactic with the X-zone and reality, and is used again in FF9 with Memoria.

That´s not what the game says.It says that our characters should travel through time compression towards the future.Then that´s Ulti´s TIME.
Near the door to her castle some character says-"So this is the future".

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Why should we expect to see any significant topographic differences?

Because we see it on the field.

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Which it would when time travelling in either direction, but given the recent creation of much of the landmarks, it can't be the past.

Don´t misunderstand me.I don´t said that the world map was on the past.It is on the present(Squall´s time).

Ulti´s castle despite being created on the past was remodeled many times and still exist on the future of course.
Citizens of the future would call it Esthar´s Presidencial Palace.
02-22-2006, 06:35 AM
Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

I don´t think I had been proven wrong.

What you think and what happens are two totally different things.

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The world is already Time Compressed on the three first discs.
I had many threads on this.Go read them to understand the theory better.Ancient members know it better.
Esthar,Galbadia and Centra for example aren´t on the same era.
And since the hit was found to be on Centra 100 years ago It only passed 100 years on Centra.But people on FF8 don´t know the world is time compressed so they assume it to have passed 100 years on Galbadia and Esthar.
But that´s not the thruth.It passed much more than 100 years on both.
And we know that Centra is not that advanced.

WHEE! INVOKING THEORY TO DEFEND THEORY! CIRCULAR LOGIC! FAILURE!
BTW, I HAVE read your old claims. Unlike other people, I'm demanding you pony up evidence, not more postulates- like that asinine time travelling chobobo BS you fed elsewhen-, to defend your statements.
Oh, and burden of proof on the Centra claim.

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What is that?

Retro decorators in this case means that any sane person will realize that chronological anachronisms mean that it's not the 70's. Ulti's castle is similar.

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Oh,yeah.What about the missile base?The marker changed.It often happens on FF.
Consider for instance the mideel town on FF7 whose marker changed after the lifestream blow.

Funny, I note massive destruction involved in those cases. Not so with orphanage.

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That´s not what the game says.It says that our characters should travel through time compression towards the future.Then that´s Ulti´s TIME.
Near the door to her castle some character says-"So this is the future".

I do so love it when people quote things that destroy their postulates.
In any case, it can still be the future and be outside 'space' as it is classicly understood. You've got reality warping magics involved, after all.

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Because we see it on the field.

Oh. Yes. That's terribly informative. ::rolls eyes:: vague assertions don't make for good arguments.
Again, I repeat- why should we expect to see the massive topographical changes.

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Don´t misunderstand me.I don´t said that the world map was on the past.It is on the present(Squall´s time).

Despite all dialogue to the contrary.

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Ulti´s castle despite being created on the past was remodeled many times and still exist on the future of course.
Citizens of the future would call it Esthar´s Presidencial Palace.

Squbba wha? INTENSE burden of proof, since that's NOT how remodelling works.
02-22-2006, 06:54 AM
Noj_R

You are arguing with a wall here, buddy...:rolleyes2
02-22-2006, 03:37 PM
Future Esthar

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What you think and what happens are two totally different things.

Why do people think they had refuted me just because I don´t reply to their posts?
That didn´t make sense.

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WHEE! INVOKING THEORY TO DEFEND THEORY! CIRCULAR LOGIC! FAILURE!
BTW, I HAVE read your old claims. Unlike other people, I'm demanding you pony up evidence, not more postulates- like that asinine time travelling chobobo BS you fed elsewhen-, to defend your statements.
Oh, and burden of proof on the Centra claim.

Not to defend theory but to show that your Centra claim don´t show Ulti to be on the future.
The very fact that I can make up a logical theory to explain the Centra subject shows the argument to be invalid.

You did the same with me when you said that the very fact that there were many medieval things on Ulti´s castle don´t means she is from the past.She could just like medieval things.But you can´t prove that either.
So you are also using made up theories to invalidate arguments.
So basically,I can´t prove her to be from the past nor you can´t prove her to be from the future.

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Funny, I note massive destruction involved in those cases. Not so with orphanage.

.

You must be blind then.

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I do so love it when people quote things that destroy their postulates.
In any case, it can still be the future and be outside 'space' as it is classicly understood. You've got reality warping magics involved, after all.

The game implies that it is possible to time travel inside time compression,so what is the problem of people with the concept of time travelling portals?
Anyway,every people can see that the Castle was in a physical place near Edea´s house.
So your theory is bull unless you think Ulti can magically imitate that outside space.

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Oh. Yes. That's terribly informative. ::rolls eyes:: vague assertions don't make for good arguments.
Again, I repeat- why should we expect to see the massive topographical changes.

Do you remember what happens when you defeat Weapon over Cosmo Canyon?
It falls over the floor and we see a change on the topography on the world map.
And we also note some changes on the topography of the Midgar continent on the third disc.

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since that's NOT how remodelling works.

Why?How it works then?

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