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Well.......one COULD make the argument that the writers never really had any intention of definately saying who controlled who. Because both sides have valid arguments, who's to say the writer's didn't provide specifics on either scenario to help encourage discussion on the game, much like they did with the tifa/aeris situation. The second lesson of business is Controvercy Creates Cash after all.
Yeah, except they did say who controlled who. In the guide. Which has been linked to like, three times. So there isn't an argument.
And even though Advent Children came out, they wouldn't change what was delibrately stated in an official guide.
And, it doesn't really matter.
Why has no one argued that the two were working in tandem?
edit: I dug around for some old (yet far more civil) discussion on the same topic. Here are some references listed below you may find interesting to peruse.
http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=29965
http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=43276
http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=43531
As far as I can recall, most discussions seem to end up with Sephiroth being the ultimate mastermind, and I am inclined to agree. However, I don't recall there being such overwhelming support for either position. I haven't played in a while though, so I'll defer that to Big D or Kishi or MM1600 or Sigggad or Squall of SeeD, if they ever see this.
As far as logic goes, the only rampant abuse of logic so far has been over whether Square asserts Sephiroth is the final villain so they can appeal to Sephiroth fanboy gamers. There is simply no evidence to justify this claim.
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make the argument that the writers never really had any intention of definately saying who controlled who
As already said, it was Square that published it, not the writers of the game. I don't know how many times people need to hear that. And that doesn't signify the end of an argument because if someone says something and doesn' give any support to what they say, it's not valid. I can't make a game and then tell everyone "the world you walked on was the moon" with no explanation of that fact. It just can't be and if anyone truly agrees with me despite heavy evidence contradicting this, then they are a dittohead.Quote:
Yeah, except they did say who controlled who. In the guide. Which has been linked to like, three times. So there isn't an argument.
And, Advent Children does heavily revolve around Jenova. And as it really goes hand-in-hand with the Jenova control theory of FFVII while the Sephiroth control is not seen at all in AC or the game, it really does lend more weight to a Jenova argument while simultaneously making what the guide says outdated.
So...a book made by Square doesn't support an argument, is that what you're saying? Fans can make theories all they want, but when the company that develops and publishes the game creates a book with information and evidence, you'd be hard pressed to ignore it. But, you can choose to do that if you want. You are doing a great job already. :) :cat:
You want to hear something never even stated in the UOG? The guide does not explain this at all. The last part of this latest bit of my essay, about Red XIII, is something the guide never elaborates on. However, my theory fully explains it with logical reason and proof from the game.
Now we get into the speculative bit of Jenova’s actions. Why did she take on Sephiroth’s appearance? People who promote the idea Sephiroth was controlling her will claim he was impressing his will onto her. No explanation or evidence stated in the game offers forth an idea that Sephiroth was capable, or willing, to do such an act. However, we do know Jenova has certain abilities and whether instinctual or sentient, can delve into the minds of others and use what she finds there for her own purposes. This would conceivably be accomplished to an even greater extent in those with her cells. Jenova’s intelligence is not really a question here. It can be instinct or cunning, but it is not at all hard to conclude that when Jenova awoke and reached out to Cloud, she found at the core of his psyche, imprinted forever in his mind was...Sephiroth. The same goes to all the clones. As survivors of the Nibelheim Incident, they would similarly have Sephiroth eternally etched onto their consciousness. Finding this common link in all the carriers of her components, she took on Sephiroth’s appearance because it was effective. Ifalna herself offers proof Jenova has such abilities (again, primal or intellectual is not involved in this section).
Ifalna: “That's when it appeared! It looked like... our... our dead mothers... and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past."
It is Jenova and Jenova looked into their minds and found the same thing she found when she looked into the minds of Cloud and the others who survived Nibelheim and then became parts of Hojo’s Sephiroth clone project. It was Sephiroth and she knew that adopting his form would help guide the clones even more. It would not just have to be an instinctual control of her cells in their body, but a physical dominance over their mind by manipulating their still clear and vivid remembrance of Sephiroth.
This makes me theorize on an interesting idea. Red XIII is marked number 13 with the same tattoo Hojo put on every other incomplete Sephiroth clone. However, he never does exhibit any sign of odd behavior (like Cloud) or seem to be a quivering mass only seeking to follow (the rest of the clones). Following this idea, is it not too far-fetched to say he never did this because he, unlike the others, had no tie to Sephiroth? If Jenova morphed her form into Sephiroth to manifest a tangible control over the clones because of their shared feelings of Sephiroth, then it would have no visible effect on Red XIII because he was not at Nibelheim and barely knows of Sephiroth. I would go so far as to say the fact he did not become like the rest is somewhat conclusive proof that Jenova became Sephiroth for just the reason stated.
Red XIII is Hojo's 13th experiment, but it is not a Sephiroth Clone. Red was just Hojo's 13th experiment, and was marked as such. :cat:
Wrong. As I conclued, and even backed up by your lovely official guide, is Red XIII is just like the other 12 men. He is the thirteenth "clone." If that is the case, it is very reasonable to assume he had Jenova cells injected into him, just like alll the others. But, like I said, there is no explanation anywhere. Red XIII even expresses worries in Gold Saucer before you head off to Temple of the Ancients.
Red XIII: Cloud... I'm number 13. Am I going to go mad too?
You wanna know something? I got sucked into this argument after making a neutral statement of "There are good points for each side" or something to that effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeromus_X
All I wanted to say originally was that for SOME points of the story it MAKES MORE SENSE that Jenova is in control. This has got so way out of control and personal that it just aggravates me to continue such a debate.
The further point I would like to make is to say that just because Square authorised / published an article / book on the story, this does not make it necessarily truth.
Put it this way. You want to write an autobiography. You record your significant life events, but find they are a little on the thin side. So, FOR THE PURPOSES OF SALES, you over-exaggerate or change some of it, because that's what you think the people will want to hear. OK then, so now we have a book, written by the "writer" of that life, so to speak, which has bent the truth to appease the public and make £$.
All I'm saying is that it is a possibility.
All of this entire topic is opinion. No one (myself included) has yet produced any facts at all, apart from a rough translation of a guide (Translated BY one of those FANS, by the way) on the net. Is the translation accurate? I don't know.
And you are right. It really doesn't matter at all. I've gone so way past caring after being insulted for trying to have a discussion.
No offence, but do you even read the sources that you are even citing? The guide says nothing about Red XIII being like the other 12 men. He was giving a tattoo by Hojo because he was part of his experiments, but there is no evidence in the game whatsoever that he was ever injected with Jenova cells. This is backed up by the fact that Hojo knew what would happen to those clones, and that Red XIII was part of an entirely different experiment to preserve his species by mating with Aeris.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
Once again, the guide says this, so I have no idea at all where you got the idea that the guide backs up what you are saying.
Of course he expresses worries, the guy has human emotions after all. What that has to do with anything, I have no idea. He was concerned because everyone with tattoos went mad. Another point that seems to not have been mentioned is that he is also nothing like the other clones in another way - the fact that they were all human and he is not. Still, that doesn't stop anyone from worrying when you see the things going on around you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
Isn't Advent Children the ultimate in fan service? I suppose then this would further debunk your claim that Square claims Sephiroth was in charge for the purpose of pandering to Sephiroth fanboys if they created Advent Children to pander to fanboys and promote Jenova instead. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
@Gyaku: I was talking to FL. :cat:
Aamaru, you are an absolute hypocrite. Don't make your gibberish about me not reading it when you yourself do not.
QUOTED FROM TEH GUIDE:
*The Sephiroth Clones that make appearances in various places*
The following are the Sephiroth Clones seen branded with numbers, [as well as]
one who was [once inaccurately] concluded to be like them.
1......The one with a tattoo seen in the palm of his hand. He went from North
Corel to the Gold Saucer.
2......The man being watched over in Sector 5 [of Midgar]; he was suffering
from the effects of mako poisoning.
4......One of the wriggling black mantled people in Nibelheim.
5......One of the wriggling black mantled people in Nibelheim.
9......Exited from the entrance of the Temple of the Ancients. [This Sephiroth
Clone's] tattoo was on their neck.
11.....One of the wriggling black mantled people in Nibelheim.
12.....One of the wriggling black mantled people in Nibelheim.
13.....(Red XIII)
-------------
And, I said he worries over it to give in-game solid evidence of my idea. Damn, Amaru, you really need to get your facts straight before you try and debunk someone.
That's the entire quote, not the one section that you handpicked to try and back what you said. And for someone who keeps crying about having proof and evidence, him worrying has nothing of that at all. There's no mention anywhere of him remotely having Jenova cells. All Red XIII knew was that he was branded, so he might go insane. Which he didn't by the way. Not to mention, he had no role whatsoever in the Jenova reunion or the impulse / pull to Jenova. :rolleyes2Quote:
*The Sephiroth Clones that make appearances in various places*
The following are the Sephiroth Clones seen branded with numbers, [as well as] one who was [once inaccurately] concluded to be like them.
While Red XIII is on this list, his placement is implied to be only a result of him having a tattoo and of him having once believed that he might have been like the Sephiroth Clones, as he had no idea what Hojo had done to him. No one but Hojo and Sephiroth knew the true nature of the Sephiroth Clones at that time, so there was some uncertainty concerning whether or not Red XIII was supposed to be like them. Of course, it's later revealed that the Sephiroth Clones were all survivors from the Nibelheim incident of five years before, and in light of that, as well as the fact that Red XIII was apprehended by Shin-Ra less than two years earlier (as seen in Before Crisis:Final Fantasy VII) and the fact that Hojo wouldn't have wanted Red XIII to be killed -- made evident by the fact that he said he wanted to preserve his species back in the Shin-Ra headquarters -- it becomes apparent that Red XIII was not a Sephiroth Clone at all..
Hypocrite? You're the biggest hypocrite here.
That's my entire point. The quote does not give any reason why Hojo gave him a number like the other clones. He did not brand any other experiment except the Sephiroth clones. My theory explains both why he has it and why he never shows any signs of being like the rest...that is, if you read it. Again, my theories go beyond what the guide says and actually offers a complete explanation of events whereas the guide seems to pick what it will explain and then not do it very well.I would like thoroughness and detail, not just a jumbled bunch of facts that really reveal absolutely nothing.