Is Advent Children REALLY better then SW?

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Originally Posted by Aralith

having to follow laws of the universe

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If it had to follow the laws of the universe then there would be no magic in any final fantasy and the spirits would not be there in SW.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

First of all, you face the same archers, and they stone your party, and the stone status they inflict is cured with softs. So, no. The arrows have nothing to do with it.

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Really I don't remember ever having to fight those archers.

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Originally Posted by Aralith

Spirits are obviously not real

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ahem yes and of course neither are the characters in final fantasy thus you could make up whatever story you want about them.
So therefore if my point is incorrect imprecise and irrelevant then Your point is imprecise, irrelevant and incorrect about spirits not being real. Neither are the final fantasy characters so you could make up whatever story you wanted about them.

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Originally Posted by f f freak

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

First of all, you face the same archers, and they stone your party, and the stone status they inflict is cured with softs. So, no. The arrows have nothing to do with it.

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Really I don't remember ever having to fight those archers

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Cosmo Canyon when you're uncovering the truth about Seto, you fight spectral archers and they stone your party, the boss also has helpers that use stone arrows as I recall.


as for AC's flaws, I could deal with the loopy story, I mean it's obvious they aimed for pure action with this one, But they failed to make it coherent. One example is that Cloud is supposedly stronger after his epiphany with vincent due to his being absolved of his guilt. But there is never really a point in the film where is there is definitive proof of more power. One way of doing this would have been to have one of the Seph clones floor him with a specific attack, and draw blood in a early scene, and later to have the same seph clone perform the same attack, only to have it defeated by sheer skill and power. Sadly, this never happens. In the motorcycle chase there is just flailing, leaping, and inexplicable flying, Sure it LOOKS stylish, but part of attacking stylishly is functionality, you have to be able to actually do something effective with that style or it just looks stupid.

I also mentioned before, does Nomura expect us to buy that Tifa being to turn in mid air in a split second and leap off a wall she was thrown towards, yet not be able to dodge Loz's attack despite him pausing to snicker for a few seconds (which is at least two more seconds then it took for her to do that mid-air turn) is good storytelling?

Clouds inexplicable burst of strength after Sepiroth maimed him is just the icing on the cake to the stupidity. "The whole "I want to take away what is most important to you" line would have been more effective and chilling if they had kept cloud maimed, his swordsman days over. And had the rest of the party act and fight on clouds behalf. Thus showing that Sephiroth CAN'T take away what is most important to cloud, because what is most important to him, his remaining loved ones in this world, refuse to be taken away or let cloud be taken away from them. Thus laying somewhat of a mind funk on sephiroth, who has never really known love his entire life, and shaking him enough that the party, CAN defeat him.

Then there was geostigma. Why? What? HUH? Was there even a point? In the scheme of things, did the plight of geostigma really play out or mean a thing in the overall story? It just felt so tacked on.

Lastly, Aerieth. AC's defininition of Deus Ex Machina. Having her show up and council cloud was contrived, having her throw him the final distance through the omega flare was silly, having her resurrect him was stupid, and having her show up at the end in full physical form, interacting with the physical world around her along with Zack was just plain awful. Leave her be, she's dead. Arrrgghhh.

But yah, I have a lot of issues With AC. I personally don't consider FFVII to be the best there ever was, is, and will be. But I do consider it a good RPG and respect it. They could have done so much better, and I have so many fond memories of the Square that was that I hope they fire Nomura someday and offer Sakaguchi a fleet of porsches if thats what it takes to put the storytelling back into Final Fantasy.

f f freak, you have taken what I said completely out of context. Spirits are not real, neither are the characters from FFVII. However, the characters are human, and humans are very real. So, yes, they have to follow basic laws of the universe. One of the things that I didn't like about this movie was the ridiculous flying and jumping around. If there had been a reason for it, then maybe they could have gotten away with it. But they just said, "Oh yes, people can jump the length of four football fields easily."

Now, about what you said about spirits and magic not being laws of the universe. I have two explanations for this. One. They are in a made-up world, and magic isn't real in our world, so there are no laws to dictate it in the FFVII world. The other explanation would be this:

At one point during the game, Sephiroth contends that the word "magic" should never be used because it's very unscientific. I would say that since materia is what gives humans these powers and that materia comes from the planet, I could see them getting the powers of the planet. Let's see here, fire, water, earth, wind, all that good stuff kind of comes from the planet. So, using a power that comes from the planet, could give you that power. It's not magic, it's just extreme technology.

And, weren't they alien spirits in SW? You mean, they came from another planet, and didn't have bodies like humans? Wow! I guess they need maybe they weren't spirits in the usual sense. They were kind of alien spirits. You mean, it might not have been magic, it could have been technology again? You see, mankind has always thought that things that they couldn't explain were magic. The Norse saw lightning and didn't know what it was. Thus Thor was born. Advanced technology that we don't understand could seem very much like magic. But as you said, it is just a story, and magic doens't exist in the real world, therefore the creators of the story get to dictate the laws it follows.

I'm done wasting my time with you. If you're that determined to nit-pick absolutely everything in the movie, and refuse to listen or understand any of the concepts, then whatever. I'm tired of explaining all of the things that you neglected to pay any attention to because you were too busy bashing it. If you don't like it, then fine. Go watch a movie that you enjoy. gtfo

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Originally Posted by f f freak

I think AC was like ten times better than Spirits Within. Spirits Within had nothing to do with Final Fantasy. It should not have been called Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within.

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I agree. PLus, AC was probably made thinking that the people who watched it had aleardy beaten the game. If you have, it adds a whole diffrent insight to the film, aside form SW, wich was far to jumpy without hardly any backstory to help with the plot.

As a stand-alone film, AC is probably about the same as SW (actully I think AC is probably better, jsut becuase of the action:D ) but with FF7's plot to backup AC, it's much better than SW.

Edit: k, I just read the rest of the posts. Aralith, it's a FICTIONAL movie. Not ment to be taken so seriously. If you wanted a perfect, well thought out plotline without any miner holes or anything of the like, you should look somewhere els than a fictional movie that's based on a VIDEO GAME. Also, about the whole Cloud suddenly becoing stronger after his meeting with Vincent, he was strong enough to take on the 3 white heads the whole time. It was the fact that he didnt belive in himself, hence what Cloud says when he talkes to Tifa about im not being able to protect anyone anymore. It's one of the movie's hidden message things.

Okay, Distain. For the record, I enjoyed the movie, that doesn't mean I'm not going to point out its flaws. I'm a movie critic (not professionaly, I just like to) and I am going to still point out holes in the plot. No movie is perfect, they all have minor flaws in them. I loved AC, and because of that, I was able to recognize the inherent flaws in it. Now, on with the rest of what you said.

What I'm talking about is not a minor plot hole. It's actually a pretty major one. You know, the whole movie is kind of hinged on Cloud defeating Sephiroth, which couldn't have happened (by physical laws) if Cloud had been wounded in the shoulder like that. That's not exactly nit-picking. Also, you say that it is a fictional movie. I concur, but so is the game. How many major plot holes are there in the game? I haven't come across any. Why shouldn't I expect the same quality from a movie that's a sequel to that game.

Cuase Square's a buch of cheap B*stards who wouldent shell out enough money to make a decent sequel:D I like AC too, and I'm awar of the flaws, I just close my eyes and ignore them, or fill them in with my own idea's of what happend/s

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Originally Posted by Aralith

You know, the whole movie is kind of hinged on Cloud defeating Sephiroth, which couldn't have happened (by physical laws) if Cloud had been wounded in the shoulder like that.

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It's a movie. And if you keep going on about the physical laws and crap like that but you can't find any plot holes about the game then let me introduce you to one. If in the game they can survive wolf bites, huge fireballs, Being shocked by lightining and all the other stuff that happens to them then I am sure that Cloud would be able to pick up his sword and slash Sephiroth to bits. If we're talking about physical laws and because they are humans and stuff all of them would be dead or severely crippled so therefore by physical laws and crap they would not be alive to be in a movie.

Actually, Cloud does have trouble moving his arm shortly therafter. Could it be possible he was hedging for his wound with an overapplication of spirit energy to move his arm for him, instead of doing it mechanically?

Really? I didn't notice any problems with his arm afterwards. Well, not entriely true. He is kind of holding it in pain after the fight, but other than that, I didn't notice anything. Especially during the fight. So, what is this overapplication of spirit energy you speak of? Can you please elaborate on that?

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Originally Posted by f f freak

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Originally Posted by Aralith

You know, the whole movie is kind of hinged on Cloud defeating Sephiroth, which couldn't have happened (by physical laws) if Cloud had been wounded in the shoulder like that.

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It's a movie. And if you keep going on about the physical laws and crap like that but you can't find any plot holes about the game then let me introduce you to one. If in the game they can survive wolf bites, huge fireballs, Being shocked by lightning and all the other stuff that happens to them then I am sure that Cloud would be able to pick up his sword and slash Sephiroth to bits. If we're talking about physical laws and because they are humans and stuff all of them would be dead or severely crippled so therefore by physical laws and crap they would not be alive to be in a movie.

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Once again, your trying to apply video game logic to movie logic and vice versa. In video games, yes they survive all sorts of lethal occurrences, but not without magical items such as potions, phoenix downs, materia, and other mystical what not along with a healthy dose of video game contrivance.

In a movie however, there must be a grater emphasis on story telling. Could the film makers have a meteor strike cloud and have the party use an X-potion to heal the damage? Yes but it would look incredibly stupid. Even in lord of the rings, which has characters coming back from the dead and falling through the earth, there are rules put in place on all the mystical aspects. The witch king in Return of the King is defeated not because he fought a more powerful warrior, but because he wasn't aware that he wasn't fighting a man, and he is immortal under the condition that no man can kill him. Logic often trumps brute strength, even in mystical plot lines. The best Storytellers have a gift for involving their audience on a cerebral level, by making the audience involved on acct that they can see and understand everything thats happening in their minds eye, and have it be totally believable to them. Yet there was none applied to any part of Advent Children, especially not the final battle. There was no way cloud could take a wound of that magnitude and continue fighting in a cinematic storytelling sense. Powerful he may be, but the film would have us believe he is mortal, and thus cloud is subject to mortal failings like having the flesh fail due to severe wounds. Having him continue the fight like nothing was wrong removed the believeability and whatever dramatic strength nomura was shooting for.

Personally, I think the movie abandoned any dramatic strength when they pointlessly rehashed the games ending cinema, then pick a nice round number (498 years prior) to flashback too. You can accuse me of nitpicking, but there is such a thing as beating a live horse to death. I understand the film is a fan servicing piece of fluff, but that was just taking fan service a bit too far.

SW sucks.
AC doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Jesse1

SW sucks.
AC doesn't

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QFT

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

In a movie however, there must be a grater emphasis on story telling. Could the film makers have a meteor strike cloud and have the party use an X-potion to heal the damage? Yes but it would look incredibly stupid. Even in lord of the rings, which has characters coming back from the dead and falling through the earth, there are rules put in place on all the mystical aspects. The witch king in Return of the King is defeated not because he fought a more powerful warrior, but because he wasn't aware that he wasn't fighting a man, and he is immortal under the condition that no man can kill him. Logic often trumps brute strength, even in mystical plot lines. The best Storytellers have a gift for involving their audience on a cerebral level, by making the audience involved on acct that they can see and understand everything thats happening in their minds eye, and have it be totally believable to them. Yet there was none applied to any part of Advent Children, especially not the final battle. There was no way cloud could take a wound of that magnitude and continue fighting in a cinematic storytelling sense. Powerful he may be, but the film would have us believe he is mortal, and thus cloud is subject to mortal failings like having the flesh fail due to severe wounds. Having him continue the fight like nothing was wrong removed the believeability and whatever dramatic strength nomura was shooting for.

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I thought that they probably gave up the believeability and whatever dramatic strength nomura was shooting for when evryone started flying through the air mysticle creatures pop out of no-where. And wich flashback do you mean with the whole 498 years prior thing?

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Personally, I think the movie abandoned any dramatic strength when they pointlessly rehashed the games ending cinema, then pick a nice round number (498 years prior) to flashback too. You can accuse me of nitpicking, but there is such a thing as beating a live horse to death. I understand the film is a fan servicing piece of fluff, but that was just taking fan service a bit too far.

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You do realize why they chose 498 years don't you? The ending of the game that was shown at the beginning of the film said, in the game at least, 500 years later. Well, since AC takes place two years after the events of FFVII, they were actually choosing the correct number of years to display. I still don't know why they showed the end of the game at the beginning, but they do have a reason for saying "498 years earlier."