explanations. *serious spoilers. do not read uless you hae completed the game.*

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

Then Laguna should have prevented her confinement to Lunatic Pandora the first time... Who's to say he can prevent another? Gen. Caraway is a apparently more of a soldier first and hardly a father at all. He organized the assasination of one Sorceress, why not another?

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Because the other is his daughter, who he does care about, if he doesn't quite know how to deal with her.
Also, Rinoa was never confined in Lunatic Pandora, and didn't actually know Laguna before the first time she was to have been sealed, and guess who aided their withdrawl from the sealing facility? Laguna's friends, at his order. And he sure as smeg doesn't seem to want to try sealing her again, since he let his son run off with her during the ending.

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There is nothing that indicates that it simply isn't Rinoa or that Rinoa has a successor.

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And there is less to suggest she is Ulti. Guess which one is more parsimonious.

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And Ryukazie

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Seriously, control-c or don't even try.

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, as I explained earlier. they were so much as 'travelling to the future'; they 'hitched a ride' as Ultimecia was compressing time to gather all the fragments of Sorceress Power (Sorceresses) that we see the Fated Children destroy, compressing the past to the present. NOT Sorceresses from the 'future'. Read my previous posts before you just go off on me when I've been ignoring you as Leeza asked me to.

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Evidence for such an assertion. No, really. I really want to see your evidence for your claim, which you have simply been taking as a given, especially since it is less parsimonious than the party encountering future sorceresses on their path to the future.
I'd also like to know the effective difference between travelling and hitching a ride to the future.

Ryusaki
I am not gonna get into this with you. Because no matter what I say, it's just gonna turn into a slugfest with you.

You would think Caraway would suddenly be a father. I would think the same but it could turn out differently.

This is almost like the Dark Phoenix Saga, and I'm not talking about those crappy watered-down cartoon versions of the story. I'm talking about the original story. But like most, who have only seen the cartoon versions, they will fight tooth and nail because Jean Grey was the Phoenix. I say, I don't care. I know the truth and that's all the matters to me, and I just watch their little tales and theories about the phoenix force and what not. It doesn't bother me. That's not the case here.

Now the only 'evidence' to your claim is that you simply don't like the even the possibility that Rinoa could become Ultimecia, and that's all. You're the perfect example of those that desperately cling to the "Happy Ending"...


My evidence, has already been posted before, go back and read it. And the thing is you have no 'evidence' against it either.

Basically we're right where I said in the beginning: a war of perspective.

Sir Bahamut states that Squall is seeing Time Compression break down; Ryusakie says that it's Squall hallucinating... Is either factally evidenced, or just prespective?

I see the possibility you CHOOSE not to. And so now that that is dealt with... Why can't Rinoa possibly become Ultimecia?

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

Ryusaki

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Control C or don't even try.

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I am not gonna get into this with you. Because no matter what I say, it's just gonna turn into a slugfest with you.

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'Because I'm being mean' is not a valid argument.

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You would think Caraway would suddenly be a father. I would think the same but it could turn out differently.

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He may be heavy handed, but he does seem to care about his daughter.

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This is almost like the Dark Phoenix Saga, and I'm not talking about those crappy watered-down cartoon versions of the story. I'm talking about the original story. But like most, who have only seen the cartoon versions, they will fight tooth and nail because Jean Grey was the Phoenix. I say, I don't care. I know the truth and that's all the matters to me, and I just watch their little tales and theories about the phoenix force and what not. It doesn't bother me. That's not the case here.

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Oh please, next time try using an example that hasn't been retconned all to hell.

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Now the only 'evidence' to your claim is that you simply don't like the even the possibility that Rinoa could become Ultimecia, and that's all. You're the perfect example of those that desperately cling to the "Happy Ending"...

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Textbook case appeal to motive.

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My evidence, has already been posted before, go back and read it. And the thing is you have no 'evidence' against it either.

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Concession Smegging accepted on the succession. Your 'evidence', before this, has been vague handwavy interpretations, certainly not enough to support a claim as outrageous as Rinoa living numerous generations past her fellows, going insane, and trying to become god.

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Basically we're right where I said in the beginning: a war of perspective.

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Basically, you can't realize that you cannot use perspective to endlessly defend.

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Sir Bahamut states that Squall is seeing Time Compression break down; Ryusakie

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Y'know what, you're officially not allowed to try and spell my name ever again. If you can't get it even get it wrong in a consistent manner, don't even bother trying to use it in the first place.

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says that it's Squall hallucinating... Is either factally evidenced, or just prespective?

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I fail to see how what he said is mutually exclusive with what I said. One could quite easily cause the other.

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I see the possibility you CHOOSE not to. And so now that that is dealt with... Why can't Rinoa possibly become Ultimecia?

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Firstly, please do not pretend that the burden of proof is on me. You're making the claim, so you have to provide evidence why and how Rinoa could become Ulti, and give sufficient evidence to show that these ways are so. Secondly, I see the possibility of R=U. I also see the possibility that Irvine = Ulti. The latter is only slightly less plausible than the first.
Though to humor you-
Rinoa's lack of Immortality, and thus inability to live so long that everyone else she knows will be long dead, for one. It requiring her to basically become an entirely different person- thus being Rinoa in body only, for two. Thirdly, it relies on numerous assumptions for which far more parsimonious explanations exist, both in what is chooses as 'evidence' and 'sequence of events'. Fourthly, NONE of the supplemental materials, especially not the Ultimania, give any support for it, and actually give evidence that makes it even less possible to exist, and such an omission from a book designed to 'give all the answers' like the Ultimania omitting such an important detail is really really REALLY unlikely.

:p Unlikely, you say... How so? ROFL....:p

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

:p Unlikely, you say... How so? ROFL....:p

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Because the entire point of the book is to answer the questions the game left behind. In such a light, them not having a space that says 'Oh yeah, and one of your party goes crazy and becomes the final boss' when they could spare time to discuss the workings of a GUNBLADE says something.

Concession accepted on all unaddressed points.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

:p Unlikely, you say... How so? ROFL....:p

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Because the entire point of the book is to answer the questions the game left behind. In such a light, them not having a space that says 'Oh yeah, and one of your party goes crazy and becomes the final boss' when they could spare time to discuss the workings of a GUNBLADE says something.

Concession accepted on all unaddressed points.

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If that's how you see it. But still Rinoa could become Ultimecia. There's nothing in the book thst states against it.

Yes, and such an absence of evidence tells the rational mind that there is no reason to assign an idea, ESPECIALLY one so outrageous, any validity.

Outrageous claims require extraordinary evidence.
Your claim it outrageous.
Your evidence is subpar. At best.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Yes, and such an absence of evidence tells the rational mind that there is no reason to assign an idea, ESPECIALLY one so outrageous, any validity.

Outrageous claims require extraordinary evidence.
Your claim it outrageous.
Your evidence is subpar. At best.

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How is it outrageous? And please stop yelling. :p

P.S. Oh, and who are you to judge 'subpar' and what not? :D

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

How is it outrageous? And please stop yelling. :p

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If you don't know how it is outrageous, you haven't been listening. R=U is in flagrant violation of parsimony up and down the field, and your refusal to present anything resembling substantial evidence isn't helping.
And I like emphasizing words by capping them. Big smegging deal.

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P.S. Oh, and who are you to judge 'subpar' and what not? :D

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I'm a critical thinker with the understandings of the mechanisms of rational , scientific thought. And by the by, that was an attack on the man, not the argument.

Yeah, I kinda saw the attack, but did ya see how I dodged it? Man, all those epsiodes of DBZ really paid off, huh?

But serioulsy... Can you describe in greater detail than 'parsimony' that's a very vague term to me.

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

Yeah, I kinda saw the attack, but did ya see how I dodged it? Man, all those epsiodes of DBZ really paid off, huh?

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You were the one attacking, 'Vegetto'. Oi.

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But serioulsy... Can you describe in greater detail than 'parsimony' that's a very vague term to me.

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Yes, since you don't even know what it means, as evidenced in a previous thread.
The logical principle of parsimony says that when two or more possible explanations exist for a given explanation, the one which requires more unsupported terms, or assumptions, should be disfavored over the one with fewer additional terms.
Guess how many unsupported terms R=U has compared to (to treat the negative case as a claim, even though there's no reason to) Rinoa is mortal and leads a relatively normal life?
There's 'the succession was of the past (even though the party went forward in time)', 'Ulti can still possess Rinoa (despite having wasted all her chances to do so)', 'Rinoa lives to a time where everyone else is dead (despite not being immortal)', 'Sorceress power retards aging (based on ages you've never confirmed)', Squall's visions in the end of time compression have special meaning, and these particular visions have a lot more meaning than anything else', and probably a few others that I can't recall right at the moment.

[QUOTE=Ryushikaze;1875488]

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

Yeah, I kinda saw the attack, but did ya see how I dodged it? Man, all those epsiodes of DBZ really paid off, huh?

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You were the one attacking, 'Vegetto'. Oi.

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How did I attack? And it's Vegita-Sama, dozo arigato.

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But serioulsy... Can you describe in greater detail than 'parsimony' that's a very vague term to me.

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Yes, since you don't even know what it means, as evidenced in a previous thread.The logical principle of parsimony says that when two or more possible explanations exist for a given explanation, the one which requires more unsupported terms, or assumptions, should be disfavored over the one with fewer additional terms.

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Oh so now you're gonna insult my intelligence... (tsk, tsk, tsk) this conversation is over. But before that here is this, ensummo... I purposely brought this to this point... Right now, your assuming and proclaiming evidence that there IS a successor to Rinoa just as you proclaim that R-U theorists pull outlandish things that don't exist. Do you see now why I say it's not a certaintity but a possibility. But somehow that bothers people, I don't know why. Clearly at the end there isn't a successor, and therefore it is open to fantasy, speculation, and perspective as ALL Final Fantasies have ended. The 2nd Generation are all just "Eye-Candy Hoars" that just play to the next FMV and don't want anyhthing to ruin that. The "Happy Ending" has some unanswered questions.

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Guess how many unsupported terms R=U has compared to (to treat the negative case as a claim, even though there's no reason to) Rinoa is mortal and leads a relatively normal life? (Final Fantasy VII or VI ring a bell?)
There's 'the succession was of the past (even though the party went forward in time)'

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:rolleyes2 They were witnessing the 'past' being compressed the the present/future of Ultimecia and all the Sorceresses before Adel's time being brought along with time being compressed to one point: Ultimecia's time. Ultimecia was drawing the Succession to her present (the past succession) the Fated Children hitched a ride on that. The Fated Children went forward in time killing the Succession of Witches from the Past that Ultimecia was trying to get to and succeeded thanks to Rinoa and Ellone. She didn't need Ellone or Rinoa for any possible successors of Rinoa... That's right, I said p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e successors. But seeing as there were none in sight or mentioned... It's (ctrl+C) p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e, that there are no successors to Sorceress Rinoa. Fate is a double-edged sword... You never know exactly how it's gonna cut... And, why can't there be a negative case? FFVII didn't turn out as happy go lucky as people wanted it to be... LOL

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'Ulti can still possess Rinoa (despite having wasted all her chances to do so)', '

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Okay, clearly you don't understand what I'm saying, but I hope you do understand, that Ultimecia did that when she was desperately trying to avoid fate, when it was just a breath away... That's the series of unfortunate/fortunate events you're talking about. Who's to say that she didn't do it any other time before then? From your perspective, she may do it again right after the "Happy Ending" IF she isn't Rinoa.
Time-travel is funny that way. If you don't understand, don't get into it with me. I'd rather speak with someone I respect more on the subject, like Sir Bahamut. In the end, Ultimecia still exists in the future and take possession of Rinoa (unless she is Rinoa) anytime she chooses. If you don't see how this works, clearly your are clinging desperately to the "Happy Ending" and/or have no understanding of the consequences/conveniances of time travel.

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Rinoa lives to a time where everyone else is dead (despite not being immortal)',

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And YOU can determine who lives or dies in the path of time. I mean, you know this? You know this for sure, right? Just like everyone esle who saw the ending of FFVII for sure? Before Advent Children and Dirge of Cerebus? Huh? Bur-Shee-Sum-Mo! This is an opinionated statement. There's no absolute of how far in the fjuture they travelled. So let me sound like you and other others that have an official aire about themselves: That's invalid.

Why couldn't she have survived when others have died? Was there a war? Plague? Car accident? Did history repeat itself again in a strange twist of unfortunate events? I guess we'll never know...

I never said that the Sorceress power retards aging, just that it retards one 'looking', (e.g. cosmetically) like they've aged. Again, clearly you do not understand me or choose not to. There's no telling what happens during that time and people can still live several generations. Who's to say that Rinoa, a Sorceress of The Great Hyne, will not live that long? There's a woman here in my city that is still alive since 1933. Oh and don't bother with well she would be an 'invalid'. Right, this from characters that can take getting mauled by a tiger, sip some gatorade and say "ow"? I'm sure they have some modern medicine. Even still, even though I don't believe that Ultimecia used Odine's 'as yet designed or built JME, Ultimecia has access to whatever she needs technologically aside from the Sorceress Power.

'

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Sorceress power retards aging (based on ages you've never confirmed)',

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And might I add 'ages' that no one has confirmed, but only ASSUMED. And as I explained earlier, I never said it retarded aging, but kept her looking young. Do you see how we're all on the level of perspective now?

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Squall's visions in the end of time compression have special meaning, and these particular visions have a lot more meaning than anything else', and probably a few others that I can't recall right at the moment.

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For the Love of the Widow, you are a piece of work, aren't ya? Isn't that 'parsimonious'? I mean, you totally ignored my statement that you and Sir Bahamut have different VIEWS on what was happening. Was it a hallucination or Time Compression decompressing? Now whose posting a postulate? ROFLMAO!!!! So tell me the facts and evidence of the 'special meaning'? And when you do... are you speaking from evidence or perspective?

Personally, I prefer the TC observation of it, but the exploding helmut does suggest it may have been a hallucination... I'm open either way it goes...

And so... I'm done with you Yua-Sakei... whatever.... No ever gets my name right and I don't mind... It's Pharoh Amon Khan III, but they go with PAK simply because it's too long and they don't bother, too lazy, or can't spell it right... I don't know, I don't care. So... G'night Tork Smacky.

ONE MOooooRe thing... Why couldn't Rinoa be Ultimecia? As far as we all know for certain, Rinoa is the Final Sorceress, and there is no evidence of a Successor. Enjoy your Happy Ending, for time... it will not wait... Fate... it escapes you... Reflect on your feelings, your emotions... and toss 'em out the window cuz the Bantha Poo-Joo is gonna hit the aft-accellorator. Ah, sue me, I'm listening to SW:EP1 SDTK.


And one more thing: Ryushikaze, Yo-ka-sama-ree.

PAK, please do not try and set up some sort of differences between me and Ryu here. I'm think we both agree on the fundamental point of Squall's weird experience; that it was a combination of TC breaking down and Squall's sad/desperate state of mind (since after all, TC reacts to thoughts/emotions as stated by Laguna). As for knowledge on time travel, if you have respect for what little I know on the subject, I can assure you that the same respect can easily be given to Ryu as well.

So please rather focus on Ryu's points instead of trying to point out that we disagree on something, when in reality we probably don't. A few more things:

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Also, Ultimecia is the only one that talks about persecution. There is no mention of generations of witches being persecuted. So...

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You should refresh your FF8 knowledge:

Edea: "...Lowlifes. ...Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my
ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one whom you have condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now? She stands before your very eyes to become your new ruler. HAHAHAHAHA."

Sure, when the game ends, we haven't been introduced to anyone who's going to take Rinoa's powers, but that's because it's not important to the storyline to see someone specific. We simply know by the nature of sorceress powers that she must give up her powers eventually, so there will be a successor.

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Who's to say that Rinoa, a Sorceress of The Great Hyne, will not live that long?

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Square-Enix.

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Oh and don't bother with well she would be an 'invalid'. Right, this from characters that can take getting mauled by a tiger, sip some gatorade and say "ow"?

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Firstly, battle physics is not the same as storyline physics, clearly. In the storyline, one bullet was going to be enough to take down Edea, yet in battle, you can slash her to pieces with a huge sword and nothing happens.

Secondly, if for some reason aging was not a problem in FF8, it would hardly be meaningful for Square to explicitly state that sorceresses age like regular human beings. Clearly it was put there to indicate that they grow old, weak, and die like everyone else. Also, I'm sure we must see old people in FF8 at some point...

I'll leave the rest to Ryu, as I have school work, and you're just repeating yourself over and over again. And the point you're repeating (that the theory is "possible") is completely worthless anyway.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

PAK, please do not try and set up some sort of differences between me and Ryu here. I'm think we both agree on the fundamental point of Squall's weird experience; that it was a combination of TC breaking down and Squall's sad/desperate state of mind (since after all, TC reacts to thoughts/emotions as stated by Laguna). As for knowledge on time travel, if you have respect for what little I know on the subject, I can assure you that the same respect can easily be given to Ryu as well.

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Thank you. I would hope that we come to some form of ammeleration. I trust you respect my views on time travel as well. I did not want to set up walls between you two, but rather point out the perspective/facts I spoke of years ago... Has it been years now? Ah, let's move on...

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You should refresh your FF8 knowledge:

Edea: "...Lowlifes. ...Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my
ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one whom you have condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now? She stands before your very eyes to become your new ruler. HAHAHAHAHA."

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I think you should take a leaf from your own book.... I hope you remember that that was Ultimecia speaking through a possessed Sorceress Edea. So it was Ultimecia that spoke of persecution throughout generations, no one else. And for that matter what the helled-horrors where the dullards of Dollet doin' cheerin' on da Scourge of the Planet? No seriously, I've been trying to figure that one since day one! Ah, screw it.

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Sure, when the game ends, we haven't been introduced to anyone who's going to take Rinoa's powers, but that's because it's not important to the storyline to see someone specific. We simply know by the nature of sorceress powers that she must give up her powers eventually, so there will be a successor.

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We do not know... you assume. As only we all can at this point. There is no suggestion of a successor. There were no Sorceresses from the future for Ultimecia to collect, only the ones in the past as we see during Time Compression. They were the reason she needed Ellone; they were the necessary catalyst to begin Time Compression as we see start moments later. Leaving only Sorceress Rinoa after that succession was destroyed.

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Who's to say that Rinoa, a Sorceress of The Great Hyne, will not live that long?

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Square-Enix.

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Square merely said that Sorceresses live normal life spans. People can live several generations. And coupled with the power of Hyne... Might be something awfully fishy in Denmark.

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Firstly, battle physics is not the same as storyline physics, clearly. In the storyline, one bullet was going to be enough to take down Edea, yet in battle, you can slash her to pieces with a huge sword and nothing happens.

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True. What was I thinking? But what of Squall's wound from Blizzara? I have an idea about that one, but that's not important now...

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Secondly, if for some reason aging was not a problem in FF8, it would hardly be meaningful for Square to explicitly state that sorceresses age like regular human beings. Clearly it was put there to indicate that they grow old, weak, and die like everyone else. Also, I'm sure we must see old people in FF8 at some point...

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Unlike Edea or Ultimecia, or Adel who clearly did something... Square's gotta do something about their androgyony issues. Maybe the Successor to Rinoa was Kuja... :D

As you said, A Sorceress can not die in peace without passing on her power... If there's no one around what happens until she can find a host? I would hate for the poor thing to suffer but... Whadda ya gonna do? I don't really go with that idea but it's something to consider... But even still, I don't see any reason why Rinoa couldn't live to Ultimecia's undetermined time era.

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I'll leave the rest to Ryu, as I have school work, and you're just repeating yourself over and over again. And the point you're repeating (that the theory is "possible") is completely worthless anyway.

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Einstien's theory of relativity has not been proven... It's just that most, , not all, believe it to be a strong and sound possibility. And so I will continue to call it so.

Also, I do not want to sound rude or petty. But, I do not think I will speak with Ryushikaze... I'm not being rude, but I'm just being honest. I do not have as much respect for him as I for you Sir Bahamut; nor as much as you have for him. At least not for a while... I don't want this thread to get closed.

:eep:

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

How did I attack? And it's Vegita-Sama, dozo arigato.

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Granted, it was a poor attack, but asking who I am to examine evidence and find it lacking is merely a way of avoiding the point. And you get to be Vegeta when you prove you can handle him.

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Oh so now you're gonna insult my intelligence... (tsk, tsk, tsk) this conversation is over.

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Pot. Kettle. Black. And I wasn't insulting your intelligence. You revealed in a previous thread you had no idea what it meant.

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But before that here is this, ensummo... I purposely brought this to this point... Right now, your assuming and proclaiming evidence that there IS a successor to Rinoa just as you proclaim that R-U theorists pull outlandish things that don't exist.

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Given that there seems to always be a successor to be found, I don't see how one would suddenly be unable to be found for Rinoa's sake. Of course, I'M still waiting for

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Do you see now why I say it's not a certaintity but a possibility.

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But it's so implausible as to be pointless to consider.

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But somehow that bothers people, I don't know why. Clearly at the end there isn't a successor, and therefore it is open to fantasy, speculation, and perspective as ALL Final Fantasies have ended. The 2nd Generation are all just "Eye-Candy Hoars" that just play to the next FMV and don't want anyhthing to ruin that. The "Happy Ending" has some unanswered questions.

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(Final Fantasy VII or VI ring a bell?)

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Vague, handwavy claims are not evidence. And VI has a precedence of a 'special' girl turning into a mere mortal at the end as well. Of course, even then they're still irrelevant.

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:rolleyes2 They were witnessing the 'past' being compressed the the present/future of Ultimecia and all the Sorceresses before Adel's time being brought along with time being compressed to one point: Ultimecia's time. Ultimecia was drawing the Succession to her present (the past succession) the Fated Children hitched a ride on that.

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And where is your evidence for this assertion, that all the sorceresses we see are of the past, that none are from the future, that they aren't all from the intervening years between Rinoa and Ulti. I mean really, you have no evidence for this claim at all.

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The Fated Children went forward in time killing the Succession of Witches from the Past that Ultimecia was trying to get to and succeeded thanks to Rinoa and Ellone. She didn't need Ellone or Rinoa for any possible successors of Rinoa... That's right, I said p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e successors. But seeing as there were none in sight or mentioned... It's (ctrl+C) p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e, that there are no successors to Sorceress Rinoa. Fate is a double-edged sword... You never know exactly how it's gonna cut... And, why can't there be a negative case?

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*Sigh* Negative case doesn't mean 'unhappy', a negative claim is, for example, the lack of belief in god or ghosts. Positive claims would be 'god/ghosts exist', and the people who make these assertions must provide evidence of these claims, and given the nature of each claim, the evidence they give must be of an extraordinary nature.

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FFVII didn't turn out as happy go lucky as people wanted it to be... LOL

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And?

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Okay, clearly you don't understand what I'm saying, but I hope you do understand, that Ultimecia did that when she was desperately trying to avoid fate, when it was just a breath away... That's the series of unfortunate/fortunate events you're talking about. Who's to say that she didn't do it any other time before then? From your perspective, she may do it again right after the "Happy Ending" IF she isn't Rinoa.

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Yes, again, it's possible, in the same was space whales are, but without any evidence that she spent her formative years possessing anyone other than Edea, wasting her own time by letting herself get further and further from her goal by possessing people well below the threshold of her machine.

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Time-travel is funny that way. If you don't understand, don't get into it with me. I'd rather speak with someone I respect more on the subject, like Sir Bahamut. In the end, Ultimecia still exists in the future and take possession of Rinoa (unless she is Rinoa) anytime she chooses. If you don't see how this works, clearly your are clinging desperately to the "Happy Ending" and/or have no understanding of the consequences/conveniances of time travel.

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No, I see how it works, but I also see when it would have to work, and I see how wasting such a time would be counterproductive to her goals of getting as far into the past as possible.

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And YOU can determine who lives or dies in the path of time. I mean, you know this? You know this for sure, right? Just like everyone esle who saw the ending of FFVII for sure? Before Advent Children and Dirge of Cerebus? Huh? Bur-Shee-Sum-Mo! This is an opinionated statement. There's no absolute of how far in the fjuture they travelled. So let me sound like you and other others that have an official aire about themselves: That's invalid.

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Edea, after you free her: Ultimecia is a sorceress from the
future. A sorceress many generations ahead of our time.
Laguna, after everyone and their cat knows about Ulti (AKA after Edea briefed them on her): Ultimecia lives far in the future where none of us can technically exist.

No absolute, but a definite lower limit, enough generations that none of them could technically exist. Invalid, huh?

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Why couldn't she have survived when others have died? Was there a war? Plague? Car accident? Did history repeat itself again in a strange twist of unfortunate events? I guess we'll never know...

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And what's your evidence that anything of the sort happened?

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I never said that the Sorceress power retards aging, just that it retards one 'looking', (e.g. cosmetically) like they've aged. Again, clearly you do not understand me or choose not to.

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Yes, but you've actually failed to provide evidence that it preserves cosmetic youth. You've said 'Edea hasn't changed a day from the past', but you've not provided a 'past' Edea FMV for a comparison, or any reason for us to think she looks out of the ordinary for a woman of her general age range.

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There's no telling what happens during that time and people can still live several generations. Who's to say that Rinoa, a Sorceress of The Great Hyne, will not live that long? There's a woman here in my city that is still alive since 1933. Oh and don't bother with well she would be an 'invalid'. Right, this from characters that can take getting mauled by a tiger, sip some gatorade and say "ow"? I'm sure they have some modern medicine. Even still, even though I don't believe that Ultimecia used Odine's 'as yet designed or built JME, Ultimecia has access to whatever she needs technologically aside from the Sorceress Power.

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Are you STILL harping on this 'hasn't built it' line? How many times must I quote Odine himself at you?

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Originally Posted by Odine

"Eghhhhhh! I kept this a secret to surprise you. It iz because of me, Odine! I researched Ellone's power long ago. I made out a pattern from ze electric current running through Ellone's brain. Once ze pattern was determined, it was easy to mechanize. It may only be a toy right now, but in ze time of Ultimecia, it iz an impressive working machine! Which means there iz a machine which imitates Ellone's power. It iz I who made ze first model of zat machine. I named ze machine 'Junction Machine Ellone'! It iz a vonderful thing to know that my invention is used in ze future!"

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And given that they were most likely informed by Edea and never contradicted, why should we doubt the man's words?

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And might I add 'ages' that no one has confirmed, but only ASSUMED. And as I explained earlier, I never said it retarded aging, but kept her looking young. Do you see how we're all on the level of perspective now?

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So you admit it's an assumption that she must already be in her 30's. I'd also like you to provide comparison shots between young and old Edea, and show how Old Edea looks out of the ordinary for a woman in the 30's to 40's range.

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For the Love of the Widow, you are a piece of work, aren't ya? Isn't that 'parsimonious'? I mean, you totally ignored my statement that you and Sir Bahamut have different VIEWS on what was happening. Was it a hallucination or Time Compression decompressing? Now whose posting a postulate? ROFLMAO!!!! So tell me the facts and evidence of the 'special meaning'? And when you do... are you speaking from evidence or perspective?

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You tell me, you yabbo. YOU are the one claiming these visions have meaning.

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And so... I'm done with you Yua-Sakei... whatever.... No ever gets my name right and I don't mind... It's Pharoh Amon Khan III, but they go with PAK simply because it's too long and they don't bother, too lazy, or can't spell it right... I don't know, I don't care. So... G'night Tork Smacky.

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Using your initials is definitely on a different level than repeatedly and now deliberately getting the name wrong, pharie amen kain.

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ONE MOooooRe thing... Why couldn't Rinoa be Ultimecia? As far as we all know for certain, Rinoa is the Final Sorceress, and there is no evidence of a Successor.

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And as we also all know for certain, she's mortal.

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I think you should take a leaf from your own book.... I hope you remember that that was Ultimecia speaking through a possessed Sorceress Edea. So it was Ultimecia that spoke of persecution throughout generations, no one else. And for that matter what the helled-horrors where the dullards of Dollet doin' cheerin' on da Scourge of the Planet? No seriously, I've been trying to figure that one since day one! Ah, screw it.

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Galbadia. And why should it be surprising that she's the one who speaks of persecution throughout generations?

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We do not know... you assume. As only we all can at this point. There is no suggestion of a successor. There were no Sorceresses from the future for Ultimecia to collect, only the ones in the past as we see during Time Compression. They were the reason she needed Ellone; they were the necessary catalyst to begin Time Compression as we see start moments later.

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No, seriously, WHERE are you getting this from?

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Leaving only Sorceress Rinoa after that succession was destroyed.

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And a planet full of girls who could be viable successors.

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Square merely said that Sorceresses live normal life spans. People can live several generations. And coupled with the power of Hyne... Might be something awfully fishy in Denmark.

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Even if the power halts cosmetic aging, you still have to deal with the "she lives far in the future where none of us can technically exist". Clearly, Laguna- who would have been briefed on such things by Edea and Odine- thinks the gap is so long that death by old age is going to be a problem.

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As you said, A Sorceress can not die in peace without passing on her power... If there's no one around what happens until she can find a host? I would hate for the poor thing to suffer but... Whadda ya gonna do? I don't really go with that idea but it's something to consider... But even still, I don't see any reason why Rinoa couldn't live to Ultimecia's undetermined time era.

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Because she's mortal, and the time, while undetermined, is stated as being too far in the future for anyone in the party to exist into.

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Einstien's theory of relativity has not been proven...

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Nothing has been 'proven', but there is such a thing as degrees of certainty.

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It's just that most, , not all, believe it to be a strong and sound possibility. And so I will continue to call it so.

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Now, here's the thing, evidence in favor of his theory can be found, in that it successfully predicted a great deal of the workings of the non-quantum universe. Your postulate, meanwhile, only has 'could be' in its favor, same as 8 ft space monkeys.

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Also, I do not want to sound rude or petty. But, I do not think I will speak with Ryushikaze... I'm not being rude, but I'm just being honest. I do not have as much respect for him as I for you Sir Bahamut; nor as much as you have for him. At least not for a while... I don't want this thread to get closed.

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How should your respect for me be at ALL relevant? It's not me, but the points I am presenting that you have to deal with.