I want Vaan's blood to flow, but he's the only character I find even remotely annoying, and that's an amazing thing. Larsa and Penelo should have been annoying beyond compare, but wow! They turned out ok!
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I want Vaan's blood to flow, but he's the only character I find even remotely annoying, and that's an amazing thing. Larsa and Penelo should have been annoying beyond compare, but wow! They turned out ok!
He usually does, but it doesn't mean I won't keep trying to best him :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Setzer Gabianni
Quote:
Originally Posted by Setzer Gabianni
:eek: :( Nooooo!!!! :eek: :(
Fine, for you I'll like Dr. Cid :p
Dr. Cid is the best Cid anyway.
Erm, Larsa was actually really cool to my surprise and Penelo knew when to keep her gob shut, because she also knew that she shouldn't be there.
Vaan was good.
When she first appeared and put her hands on her hips and leaned forward in a stereotypically bossy anime girl style I thought she was going to be terrible. Then she actually started saying stuff and she wasn't bad at all, thankfully.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazzard
I was very, very pleased when Penelo didn't turn out to be yet another Yuffie, Rikku, etc...
The only character i probably wouldn't like is Migelo, he's just too worried like. I admire Basch, because he's so official and reminds me of the great 'Auron'. Fran is sexy. Vaan is cool. Balthier is the perfect gentleman and knows how to charm his way out of trouble. Ashe is not some flashy hoe. Penelo knows her place (Shutting up).
Good characters overall!
Wolf Kanno - Bravo. Those were some superb character anaylses, really they were quite insightful, admittedly some of the things you commented on I missed during my first play-through. I can tell you've made this argument before in a previous forum. However, good descriptions of characters still doesn't invalidate my experience that ultimately these characters were lacking that level of attention that I've come to expect. Instead of long heated dialogues shared amongst the main party, I felt like what I got was brief little quips here and there ... with most of it being pretty insignifcant. Instead of utilizing cutscenes in a way that is advantageous to capturing key moments in the character's evolution, what I got was cgi cutscenes arbitrarily interspersed - often for no discernable reason other than showing off the game's pretty graphics. This is all pertinent as it pertains to the game's failure to deliver strong memorable character development.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf KannoOk, since Nominus asked nicely (you can put the gun away now...) I'll post about this debate. Now, I pretty much agree completely with Angel_from_Hell about this topic and thread, especially since there is like 12 other threads just like this. (FFXII haters, either leave us alone or at least post in one of the old threads. Stop making new ones:mad: )Quote:
Originally Posted by Nominus Experse
As for the debate about the story and characters. I'm really not in the mood to discuss it cause I've done this debate like 7 times now but here I go again...:rolleyes2
WARNING MAJOR SPOILERS!!!!
(Also, this is my personal opinion and perception of the story and cast. You are free to believe whatever you want;) )
The story, to me, is rather simple but I enjoyed it. I love political stories (a veteran of FFT and Suikoden I-V respectively). It's story is good but it doesn't have the political backstabbing I love so much. It's there it's just not "earth shattering" to the plot. The aspect of the story I really love is how the theme of "Freedom" and how it relates to everything. Dalmasca's struggle to regain it's own sovereignty and eventually(SPOILER) mankind's struggle to gain freedom from the Occurians I aslo enjoyed (SPOILER)the party retracing the steps of the Dynast-King and how "history repeating" itself plays in it overall.
It's easy to just say that FFXII's plot is just another "resistance versus evil empire/corporation/religious organization" but you miss out on the unique aspects of this journey. I don't mind similiar ideas and stories being repeated, as long as it tries to bring something new to it. It's not like all the FF plots are original (FFVIII being the last original story in the series, and FFV being the last before that.) I think XII does a good job cause it explores more grey area than the previous installments.
The Empire isn't evil, the resistance isn't necessarily good. (SPOILER)I mean the Empire conquers Nalbida and Dalmasca so they can retrieve the secrets of the nethicite in hopes of using this knowledge to break free from the Occurians. The resistance is willing to join the Rozzarian Empire and start Ivalice's equivalent to a "World War" in order to regain the independance of a small insignifact country. A war that would have devastated that same country and kill countless innocent lives.
The story is simple but morally complex. The characters share this complexity within simplicity approach as well.
Vaan, is simply the "angry youth" who is rather naive about how the world really works. (SPOILER)He's an idealist, who hates the empire and Basch for killing his only family; as well as subjagating and humiliating his homeland. Since he only grew up in a stifiling authoratative dictorship. Vaan of course dreams of being a "Sky Pirate" the last visage of freedom his world knows. It is only after he is caught with Balthier and learns the truth about Basch that he begins to see that the world doesn't live up to his perception of it. Being young, he quickly adapt but hangs onto some of his original "world view". It's not until after his extended time with Larsa that he begins to finally stop hating the empire. This of course brings me to Penelo.
(SPOILER)Her relationship with Larsa, the symbolic last visage of good in Archades' aristocracy and the hope of a peaceful future, changes her perception of the empire. If Larsa is a noble and yet sympathetic and caring, then can Archades truly be the evil empire she was raised to believe it is? As the story goes, she quickly becomes the Imperial sympathizer who only wishes for peace, between all the kingdoms. She doesn't want Lady Ashe to destroy Archades, but she also wants to save her homeland. One scene in particular, defines why Vaan and Penelo are really there. Basch and Lady Ashe have a discussion about vengeance against the empire and Basch alludes to the growing relationship between Vaan, Penelo, and Larsa, and how we don't need animosity. These children are the hope of a peaceful future.
Basch, is pretty damn complex either way you look at him. (SPOILER)A disgraced knight who failed to protect his kingdom, as well as being set up as the traitor who led to it's downfall. But Basch isn't angsty nor doesn he swear vengeance against those who took everything away from him; his only concern when he becomes free is to find the resistance and restore Dalmasca. He's a man who has lost much in his life, his homeland, his brother, and everything he cared about; all this before he even became a knight of Dalmasca. I feel it's due to his previous lost that Basch has learned what is truly important. Even though the resistance, his kingdom, and even Lady Ashe distrust him, he presses on. Why? Because all that matters is that he fights for himself. He fights for what he believes in and what matters most to him. His maturity and integrity is what truly makes him such a great character.
Fran, represents the resistance against the natural order. The irony is that being a Viera, she is naturally attuned to the world and feels the effects of the Humes going against the natural course.(SPOILER) Her society is one of isolation and detachment. The Viera don't necessarily "live" in the world as much as they just exist within it. They don't participate with the events around them and instead stay in their own communities which can best be described as an "elvish convent". Fran represents an interesting sub-story that's mentioned mostly by talking to NPC's in the cities. The rise of Viera leaving the "Woods" to live in Hume society. Fran see's that their is more to the world and wishes to be free. She pays the ultimate price. She sacrifices her home and family in exchange for her personal freedom. To learn and to live. I feel it's this common circumstance that leads her to join with Balthier. Their pasts are very similiar.
Balthier is probably the other complex character in this story. His personality and actions are completely contradictory. He's a self proclaimed "gentleman thief" but he's associated with many low lifes and he's not afraid to do some unsavory things to get what he wants. (SPOILER)He searches for great treasure and plunder, but his past shows that he was pretty well off. He once held to the idea of order and justice and now he is a renowned pirate who treasures his personal chaotic freedom more than anything. He says he hates his father but is driven to understand him. He strongly dislikes his homelands superficial society but there is a hint that he still loves his homeland despite it's flaws. He tries to come off as selfish and scheming but rather he is the first to sacrifice himself for others. Balthier is truly his own person. He embodies the freedom that many people like Vaan desire. I mean, what's not to love?
Lady Ashe's personal story is at the heart of this games story. She truly embodies the "human element" of the story. Her struggle between her personal desire and her duty as a figurehead was rather well executed. (SPOILER)She fights to restore her kingdom for the sake of her people but she wrestles constantly with the side of her that wants to take revenge against the empire that killed her husband and destroyed her kingdom. In most RPGs, when the hero gains an item of immence power from the villains, they usually do the "righteous" thing and try to destroy it or hide it right away. Lady Ashe instead decides she wants to use it against her enemies. Her struggle to "do the right thing" is what makes her appealing. The journey is what shapes her ultimate decision. From retracing the steps of the Dynast-King and to see his own conflict which the history books left out. The haunting memory of her husband who supports her need for revenge. Watching Vaan and Penelo learn about the world and their small steps towards overcoming the history of bad blood between Dalmasca and Archades. Even Basch, who has just as much reason to get revenge and yet he has no animosity.He does what's important to him and the ones he loves. Balthier and Fran both show her the danger of the nethicite and each of their stories tell the consequences of using such power without restraint. It's all filled with ambiguity which I savor more than anything. Her journey, is more of a personal journey into the darkness that exist within us all.
I gave some arguments about it's story and characters. It's the conclusions I came to as I played through the game. But this is why I truly love the cast and story of FFXII. ;)
Even you should be able to admit that the character dynamics in FFXII are on a much subtler level than what we're used to.
I agree they are more subtle, I just don't agree with this being a bad thing. I generally perfer subtle character growth and exchanges over drawn out melodrama. Neither is bad, it's just that both tend to rub people the wrong way if it's done to either extreme. For games like FFVIII and FFX, I feel the melodrama was too cheesy and felt more like some horrible TV soap opera. For FFXII, it feels to some like the cast is withdrawn from the story and are being used more as a means to an end rather than being percieved as living breathing people the player can relate to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow8017
I mean, we've seen both styles of writing before being used flawlessly. FFVI is drawn out melodrama that is beautifully done, it's still the cast I care the most about. On the other spectrum we have FFT, which has a more subtle style of dealing with character growth. I still believe to this day that Ramza Belouve is the greatest and most complex character to come out of the FF series.
The best I can do is give you a better insight in how I percieved the story and characters. I don't believe I can really change your mind on how you feel about the game but I at least gave you something to watch for if you ever decide to try and "stomache" your way through the game again;)
As for Vayne, Renmiri, I also feel he could have been done a little better. I never really believed him to be a villain (an asshole maybe...) but I don't really feel like he's a wonderful antagonist either. He's sorta've like Seymore in a sense. He's there to be a chatty villain (or antagonist in this case) The real odd thing about Vayne, is that up until you reach the final dungeon, he came off to me, like he was doing all this to prepare Larsa. Like he purposely chose to become the "villain" so Larsa would become a better ruler. This all goes out the window once you reach the final battle though...
Roto speaks the truth, and Renmiri, thank you :3
Wolf Kanno, this is for you: ♥
I agree with all this. I love this game! Sure, I still think VII's probably the best game in the series -- nothing will ever change that -- but I put this game right up there with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Rabbits
Only thing is, in terms of character development, I think the only two characters who didn't get any of that were Vaan and Penelo.
I wonder if Square attempted to draw more attention to the greater happenings of the story, such as the politics and the like that were unfolding, by having less attention given to the characters.
In some FFs, it seemed there was more character developement than that of the actual occurances of the story itself. Sometimes this worked, and other times it did not.
This FF is a break from many things typical of FFs from FFVII on up to FFX, so it might be true.
I'm not sure though.
20 hours in now and i'm loving it, thats all
Larsa I like, but I don't like Penelo either. But Vaan is still the worst. He must be eliminated. It's just a shame that the only place he doesn't suck is statswise/in battle, otherwise I just wouldn't use him. :{Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
From day 1 when i played as Vaan, i made a commitment with him that i would give him more special attention than the others, thus making him the leader and the best!!!